Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Hardcore said:
Grantmac said:
75# is a really heavy bike unfortunately. I was hoping then be more inline with other ebikes around 55 or so.
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I've heard stories that back in the 90s, lighter bikes became the trend to the extend where riders put their lifes on the line with underconstructed frames, thin wall'd rims, and rim brakes.
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This is just dumb. Bikes in the '90's were not especially light. It's tough to generalize about bikes from that era since it was a time of so much change in frame materials, componentry and with the introduction of suspension. A statement like the above compromises your credibility.


Hardcore said:
Grantmac said:
75# is a really heavy bike unfortunately. I was hoping then be more inline with other ebikes around 55 or so.
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Nowadays, bikes actually became heavier, look at disc brakes, dropper posts, suspension forks, larger and wider wheels, wider handlebars, etc. .. would you like your bike without? Ebikes have most the weight in the right places, because of the placement of the motor, battery, controller, in the downtube and cranks. The emtbs weight conveys an enormous degree of confidence and provides undreamt-of grip through corners with incredible stopping power and makes ease of any uphill section. Just to mention, some downhillers have even placed lead weights on their bikes for the exact same reasons.

Now where is the disadvantage of weight, you name it, acceleration and uphill, or if you want to transport the bike unassisted. All these can be neglected if you just get a big enough battery and motor and I believe frey has hit a sweet spot with their EX that with one battery weighs about 30kg (34 with both batteries).

Now please, give me your view on this as I am eager to hear your side.
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A heavier bike is more difficult to handle in every respect. Cornering becomes more difficult and laborious. Jumps are more difficult. Handling is compromised. Without suspension, electric bikes are much more uncomfortable than standard bikes due to their weight. Lifting the front wheel of an e-bike, bunny hopping or any other elementary bike handling maneuver becomes exponentially more difficult.

Weight is not a minor issue, as you portray it to be. There is also the issue of safety. A disproportionate percentage of ebike riders are older, and a significant percentage have some degree of disability from age and/or injury. Handling a very heavy bicycle is disadvantageous in such circumstances.

In my experience, e=bikes and nonmotorized bicycles have a very different feel due to the differences in weight. They cannot be dismissed out of hand or ignored as you attempt to do so so flippantly.
 
formula101 said:
A heavier bike is more difficult to handle in every respect. Cornering becomes more difficult and laborious.
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Thats not entirely true for every situation. The lower centre of gravitation can make for a much better experiences on the road when cornering. I currently drive a Stromer ST5 which is about 30kg and it feels much better to lay in a curve until the pedal hits the ground than on any other bike i drove before.
 
Qwurdi said:
formula101 said:
A heavier bike is more difficult to handle in every respect. Cornering becomes more difficult and laborious.
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Thats not entirely true for every situation. The lower centre of gravitation can make for a much better experiences on the road when cornering. I currently drive a Stromer ST5 which is about 30kg and it feels much better to lay in a curve until the pedal hits the ground than on any other bike i drove before.
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A lower bottom bracket has nothing to do with bike weight. Entirely separate issues.
 
formula101 said:
A lower bottom bracket has nothing to do with bike weight. Entirely separate issues.
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Total weight is determined by drivers weight plus Bike weight. The heavier the bike, the lower the centre of Mass. Simple physics.

Things are different Offroad though, there are other limiting factors and traction doesnt scale up with weight the way it does on Road.

But for road use, weight isnt really a issue, granted theres a powerull motor.
 
I agree with you about the weight issues you mention, my point of view was personal. E-mtbs are a different workout, as in my case, the electric-assist got rid of pushing uphill. Now I can focus on getting run after run going up the hills 5 times instead of twice improving my riding skills. Sure, you can feel the weight, it gets me a good upper body workout when riding it down the trails. And yes, a lighter bike is the next step but what would the sweet spot be and how do you propose to get there. Frames (carbon), higher-density batteries, ..., probably on all aspects we got to shave some weight off or find some compromise. For now, it depends on what you want to do with the bike and what you can do with the bike.
 
garyal1 said:
Here is the battery information from Ivy at Frey:

IVY wrote:
EX Max battery 48V14Ah inner+48V14Ah outer.
CC Max battery 48V17.5Ah. both do not apply for 52V.

Here is how the EX handles two batteries with auto-sensing of voltage:

IVY wrote:
About EX battery how they work I answer you below:
if 2 battery on bike, the? higher voltage will discharge firstly. till the 2 battery at same voltage , then 2 battery will together to discharge. so it is very convenient

In my mind this seems like a great way to handle two batteries and the bike should have a full 28AH useful charge. Too bad about the lack of 52 volt availability for these models. However, the 48 volt 21AH batteries Frey is supplying now come with a 40 amp BMS instead of a 30 amp BMS. This should lower the voltage sag at full 1500 watt draw.
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You could run a 52V as the add-on battery if the bike is smart enough with running the higher voltage battery first. I'm thinking of doing this as I have the same pack they show as the add-on in a 52V configuration.

The main question I have is if the Basic version comes with that auto-sensing feature and connector so that I can add my own pack.
 
I'm not sure connecting a 52v and 48v battery at the same time is good for the batteries as at some point you still reach equal voltage and then ... I guess you'd only be able to use the 52v (58.8v charged) battery till it reaches 54v. If they'd place a switch between the internal battery lines you can disconnect the internal one. I would love to see a 52v version of the EX though.
 
Both batteries together is not an issue. The issue is that the 52v battery BMS cut off will eventually get hit, which is lower than you should take the voltage for longevity. You could simply switch off the external once voltage gets down to around 45v.
 
I always thought parallel connecting two different batteries is a bad idea but if they only get physically connected when the voltages are equal I guess it it should be do-able. Although their discharge curves will not be the same either. Well, let us know how it goes if you decide to give it a go.
 
Hardcore said:
I'm not sure connecting a 52v and 48v battery at the same time is good...
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It’s best to do this on the 4th of July.

So your plan is to charge both to 54.6, then let count on the bms for shutting down the 52v battery in time? Or monitor the voltage and unplug it at the right time?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Hardcore said:
I always thought parallel connecting two different batteries is a bad idea but if they only get physically connected when the voltages are equal I guess it it should be do-able. Although their discharge curves will not be the same either. Well, let us know how it goes if you decide to give it a go.
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You cannot directly connect batteries with a delta in voltage or you’ll get a current surge. In this case there is a circuit that switches between the batteries if the voltage doesn’t match. The higher voltage battery is selected until voltage matches. Then they are used in parallel.
 
Hi Ivy,

I've asked a few times now along with others on this forum. Are they any plans to release a belt drive version with IGH?

I feel like name brand bikes are the only ones doing it & it would be great for you to offer the same as well.

Cheers
 
Hello Coolminty,

Ivy is really busy this period, as end of January is Spring Festival, the most important holiday of the year.

Just last September the new Frey CC and EX bikes were revealed at our annual event.
Now the factory is building the first orders for them, so the first CC's and EXes will be on the road in 2020.

While we cannot reveal what we are working on for our model year 2021, be sure that we hear what you are all saying!
And, we might show off some prototypes at Sea Otter :D
 
Belt drives are utterly pointless. They are extremely expensive, very heavy, their gear ratios are extremely limited, and serviceability is very poor.

Meanwhile the standard chain drivetrains are very cost effective, easily serviceable, very light, gear ratios are far wider than most riders will ever need and availability is universal.

Chains are also getting stronger with every iteration. Interestingly, the new 12 speed chains are stronger than 8 or 9 speed chains despite being far thinner. Chains are also very quiet these days. I just bought a 9 speed kmc chain and you can barely hear it. I like how chains sound in any event. Worrying about chain noise is pointless: wind noise on an bike is far louder, as is tire noise.

Chains are generally very inexpensive. I picked up my kmc 9 speed for $7. Many people spend more on coffee in a day.

I sincerely hope Frey doesn't waste precious limited resources on an inferior technology.
 
Expensive: Partly due to a monopoly market for the products & machining costs. With far longer lifetimes the added initial cost is not much of a big problem. I've even heard audio from an interview stating that due to the lowered maintenance requirements bike shops should charge more to cover the reduction of servicing.

Heavy: Agreed. They are generally paired with an IGH which itself is heavy. Plus these are going on an already 30kg ebike. So I take this point as irrelevant unless you're talking about non-ebikes?

Gear ratios: Very dependent on what you put on the back end. So a bit of a moot point. There's plenty of offerings to choose from so you're not locked in to a small range. & like you said. Most offerings in derailur format have way more range than necessary.

Serviceability: What do you need to service? No grease. Generally tensioned correctly to last. Less derailments. Frames by design make them completely removalable if need be. They don't stretch as much(if at all?) over use like a chain does.

Noise: You must have a near perfect derailure drive line perfectly lubed day-in-day-out because mine definitely gives me enough chatter for it to be bothersome.

Also a chain can be used with an IGH driveline so you may want to be specific & mention derailures.
 
coolminty said:
Expensive: Partly due to a monopoly market for the products & machining costs. With far longer lifetimes the added initial cost is not much of a big problem. I've even heard audio from an interview stating that due to the lowered maintenance requirements bike shops should charge more to cover the reduction of servicing.
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A new 9 speed chain every 3K miles is just $7. That's just $14 a year for a rider logging significant miles (100 miles/week). A new cassette every 3 chains costs $20 a year on average. New chainrings perhaps $20 a year on average. That's a pittance at $50 a year assuming close to 5K miles annually.

A belt drive system will costs you thousands of dollars. It would take 40 years to spend as much on a conventional 9 speed.

coolminty said:
Heavy: Agreed. They are generally paired with an IGH which itself is heavy. Plus these are going on an already 30kg ebike. So I take this point as irrelevant unless you're talking about non-ebikes?
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Not irrelevant. Lighter e-bikes are easier to carry up stairs, easier to lift onto rack mounts of cars and for service, and handle better on the road and on trails.

coolminty said:
Gear ratios: Very dependent on what you put on the back end. So a bit of a moot point. There's plenty of offerings to choose from so you're not locked in to a small range. & like you said. Most offerings in derailur format have way more range than necessary.
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It's always better to have more rather than less range than necessary. A higher top gear is great when descending and a super low low helps keep you close to the 90 rpm band where most mid drives produce optimal power.

coolminty said:
Serviceability: What do you need to service? No grease. Generally tensioned correctly to last. Less derailments. Frames by design make them completely removalable if need be. They don't stretch as much(if at all?) over use like a chain does.
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Likewise, standard chain drivetrains require minimal maintenance, typically just a quick wipe and oil after a few hundred miles.

coolminty said:
Noise: You must have a near perfect derailure drive line perfectly lubed day-in-day-out because mine definitely gives me enough chatter for it to be bothersome.

Also a chain can be used with an IGH driveline so you may want to be specific & mention derailures.
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Wind noise is around 85 Db at 20 mph, and climbs to 95+ Db at 30+ mph. Modern chains are exceptionally silent. If you want to eliminate chain noise against the chain stay buy a protector for $10. Problem solved.

Belt drives are not worth the cost.
 
I Wonder how the Frey Ex compares to the Excess HP-E180. Both Ultra M620 motors. The Hp is 4-5kgs Lighter though it looks as if the the reach and wheel base is longer.
 
Rohloff hub with a gates belt drive I would be a buyer. Riese and Muller emtb is my dream bike
 
Davnic said:
Rohloff hub with a gates belt drive I would be a buyer.
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Not sure I could live with the noise of a Rohloff hub but FLX may have what you are looking for in the new Blade 2.0:

https://flx.bike/collections/bikes/products/blade-2-0

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Its a ht but I'll take a look thanks.
R and M make a nice bike but way over the top on price for me and I think Frey could build it for allot less.
 
Nice video, the EX is a good looking bike! Would love to see a CC unboxing :wink:

Is the EX toward the end of the video the matte black?
 
garyal1 said:
I bought these 14S 40amp BMS (s) for about $20 delivered thru Alibaba.
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I know this is a bit late, but do you have a link for these???
I am looking at the same type of battery...
 
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