Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

I run a clone of this motor at 3-7Kw all day without trouble @ 80v. Gets hot but 3mm phase wires are fine.

How difficult is it to change out the phase wires? Are there any guides or diagrams in this thread showing some of the process? I know there's pics located somewhere in this thread showing the motor case open, but I don't have the time to look through all of the pages to find it.

I have not done it yet but there is threads on the topic, liveforphysics has a good one. In this thread neptronix talks about running bigger phase wires close to the motor to keep the smaller wires as short as possible without changing them, he states the bigger wires will help cool the small motor wires. Now not trying to talk for neptronix but you can read what he posted on it.

I will add some links on the topic and you can decide.

DIY 10awg phase leads through axle in 9C hubmotor.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14580&hilit=upgrade+phase+wires#p217570

First page of this thread Neptronix talks about the phase wires that came in his motor. They used to be the same as the 1000w or the 1500w front motor. The new rear 1500w has upgraded to 3mm.

Here's a thread about doubling the phase wires of a BPM geared hub. Of course it's not a Leafbike 1500W, but there are a lot of similarities.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=51237#p758156

Thank you for sharing that link. It will come in handy soon.

Also, does anyone have figures for the hysteresis drag torque and eddy current drag torque for the Leafbike motors? I could not find these figures published anywhere, but it would be nice to calculate how much wattage I'll need to overcome the cogging losses when riding with the drive system turned off, and to also be able to compare other motors for which these figures are published.

For example, the Grin All-Axle hub motors used for front drive tadpole trikes have an eddy current drag torque of 0.0005 Nm/rpm and a hysteresis drag torque of 0.45 Nm. They are very lossy and have the thicker 0.35mm laminations.

I got a notification a bit over a week ago that my motor would have to be built. This gave me a chance to specify 3mm phase wires, with the consequence being that the protective spring could not be fit to cover the insulation of the wires bundled together through the center of the case.

The motor has not shipped yet due to the coronavirus and the resultant quarantine. I do not know when it will ship.

The Toecutter said:

torque for the Leafbike motors
…
Grin All-Axle hub motors

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Realize OT, but anyone have a comparison for the "real world" **max torque** between these two?

I'm particularly interested in, at low rpm say standing start on a long steep hill situation.

Which dissipates heat better? I know the Grin is designed to work with statorade, is the leafbike motor?

The Leafbike motor responds quite well to Statorade / Ferro-Fluid

$150 postage [emoji22][emoji23][emoji24] to UK.

Anyone have a used motor they want to sell lol.

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lol they come up for sale but need to be quick. Last used one, I grabbed it.

Because of the coronavirus, my motor wasn't able to be built. They offered to send me a 4T wind 1500W version instead, 3mm phase wires pre-installed, no extra charge, and I took it. It arrived last Wednesday, and I was advised not to open the box for 2 weeks. I'll open the box when the 2 weeks has passed.

Now I need to get all the other parts needed to make it work. ebikes.ca is out of stock of Phaserunner controllers, for instance...

What is the maximum peak current these motors can take for 10 seconds at a time without suffering permanent damage? I'm thinking that limit is around 180A for the 4T wind version of the 1500W. I'm tempted to start with a Phaserunner running a 77.7V battery and 96A max phase current, then upgrade to an ASI BAC2000 controller and going full retard on input power to this motor(which may require waiting 6 months to a year to get after placing an order if the comments I've heard pertaining to one of its distributors are any indication).

I just got tracking number for mine. Coming from Hong Kong. Didn't say anything about two weeks.

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Leafbike 1500 with 10ml of ferro fluid is one of my top recommendations for great all-around performance.

A 7-speed freewheel is sometimes a tight fit, depending on the frame, but I'm told the 6-speed mega range fits easily, and still works with 7-speed derailleur.

I'm sure it depends on the frame. On my trike 2019 7T Leafmotor 3mm phase wires, run a 7 speed cassette without spreading forks. Going to try to force an 8 speed in.
I peddle a lot and don't notice any drag from the motor. Of late set my speed limit at 28.5 mph/46 kph and pulls 20 amps @ 74V by Grinfineon 40A controller, have my max amps set at 36a (why it"s my battery continuous discharge current, 10sec burst is 80a) until my temp sensor is hooked up. I have 5 ml of FF and never even stressed this motor. My ridding style averaging 10w/K, steepest hill top it at 20 mph.

spinningmagnets said:

A 7-speed freewheel is sometimes a tight fit, depending on the frame, but I'm told the 6-speed mega range fits easily, and still works with 7-speed derailleur.

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I have 135mm dropouts. The salesperson at Leafbike told me a 7-speed cassette would fit, after I told them I planned to go with 9 speed. Glad I didn't order the 9-speed parts. I now have a 11-34T 7-speed cassette that I picked up from a local bike shop, and will open the package with my motor in 9 more days.

ZeroEm said:

I'm sure it depends on the frame. On my trike 2019 7T Leafmotor 3mm phase wires, run a 7 speed cassette without spreading forks. Going to try to force an 8 speed in.
I peddle a lot and don't notice any drag from the motor. Of late set my speed limit at 28.5 mph/46 kph and pulls 20 amps @ 74V by Grinfineon 40A controller, have my max amps set at 36a (why it"s my battery continuous discharge current, 10sec burst is 80a) until my temp sensor is hooked up. I have 5 ml of FF and never even stressed this motor. My ridding style averaging 10w/K, steepest hill top it at 20 mph.

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Good info to know.

I'm planning to run mine with a Phaserunner at 77.7V, 96A phase current, 60A battery current, using a 21s4p pack of Panasonic 2170 cells. Theoretically should be good for 0-30 mph in 6 seconds, 0-60 mph in 17 seconds, and a 65 mph top speed, assuming 260 lbs laden weight, and a CdA of 0.12 m^2 with the new body shell I made for it.

Of course, much faster is possible with more amps and a 3T wind version laced into a 20" wheel...

Don't want to push this trike faster, need full suspension 24" fronts and 26" rear wheels to smooth out some of the bumps. I have had to slow down crossing a bridge, the expansion gaps are not level and the jarring has flipped switches on my trike.

With that said, going to put a 5T motor on the trike (will let you know how it does) while I work on my current motor. rust and need to swap the temp sensor out then going to mount it in a 29" wheel then put it back on. Should gain 3 mph and top out at 33 mph fast enough for this trike.

The Toecutter said:

Also, does anyone have figures for the hysteresis drag torque and eddy current drag torque for the Leafbike motors? I could not find these figures published anywhere, but it would be nice to calculate how much wattage I'll need to overcome the cogging losses when riding with the drive system turned off, and to also be able to compare other motors for which these figures are published.

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I doubt you'll find it.. but i've pedaled home a few times w/o motor and can say in a 26" - 700C wheel, and super low friction Schwalbe Almotions, and can say i made the trip 3 miles home without dying.. :lol:

neptronix said:

I doubt you'll find it.. but i've pedaled home a few times w/o motor and can say in a 26" - 700C wheel, and super low friction Schwalbe Almotions, and can say i made the trip 3 miles home without dying.. :lol:

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My concern is that it may slow it down enough to negate the advantage of the body shell when the motor is turned off. I still want it to move like a velomobile even when the motor is disabled and/or when there is no power going through the motor to kill the cogging losses(in the scenario of a dead battery, failed controller, ect). The Phaserunner has a virtual "off" mode that keeps a small current going through the motor circuit to kill the cogging losses, but the goal is to have redundancy built into the system so that if the EV drivetrain fails, it can still be pedaled at a decent speed.

Assuming the losses are the same for the Leafbike as they are for the GRIN axle hub, I've calculated 36W motor losses at 30 mph. That is an acceptable figure for me, if true. The Leafbike is a larger motor with more stator mass than the GRIN Axle motor, but the Leafbike also has thinner laminations.

do you need regen braking, or reverse?

if not, you could use the hubmotor outside the wheel, in the drivetrain (like rassy did, or one of the various other versions), or separately chained to the wheel (so not in the pedal drivetrain), and have a freewheel (or clutch) between the motor and the wheel. thus the drag when not powered would be essentially nothing.

you'd also end up with stronger wheels this way, since the hub would be smaller and the spokes longer and more able to be laced "correctly" than with the large hubmotor in the wheel.

amberwolf said:

do you need regen braking, or reverse?

if not, you could use the hubmotor outside the wheel, in the drivetrain (like rassy did, or one of the various other versions), or separately chained to the wheel (so not in the pedal drivetrain), and have a freewheel (or clutch) between the motor and the wheel. thus the drag when not powered would be essentially nothing.

you'd also end up with stronger wheels this way, since the hub would be smaller and the spokes longer and more able to be laced "correctly" than with the large hubmotor in the wheel.

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Mine is built into the wheel. I plan to have regen.

If I wanted to run a motor outside the wheel, I'd have gone with an Astroflight instead.

The allure of this particular motor is the capability to operate it silently with an FOC controller, the peak and continuous power per unit of weight it can deliver, and what are among the lowest cogging losses of any similarly-sized in-wheel hubmotor on the market.

Hopefully the cogging losses are low enough for my application. I will be finding out in a few weeks once I have the rest of the parts.

The leafmotor is my first motor so I can not compare the drag to other motors. when riding with other non e-bikes I don't use use any power but have it on for the regen or braking and the drag is so low it does not seem to slow the bike down when coasting and don't feel it while peddling. my last 30 mile ride averaged 6w/km average speed 24 kph.

Low cogging is another benefit of the thinner laminations. I was told at Interbike that it costs less than $10 per motor to go from 0.50mm to 0.35mm, so I am shocked and saddened that more hubs aren't the thinnest lams by default, without some special order and a huge MOQ

spinningmagnets said:

I was told at Interbike that it costs less than $10 per motor, so I am shocked and saddened that more hubs aren't the thinnest lams by default, without some special order and a huge MOQ

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Yeah, i heard MAC pays another $20 for their 0.27mm geared hub lams vs the 0.35mm. The few % of efficiency gain at the stator allows the motor to be used to it's potential since geared hubs are so bad at shedding heat. Totally worth the cost.

The gains on a DD aren't as big unless the motor is in a 20" wheel, which i run exclusively. For a big reduction in drag and a few % more efficiency, i'd pay another $100... seriously.

I offered a couple motor producers a 4 digit sum to build me a custom DD motor with 0.2mm or 0.27mm lams and had no takers. I haven't seen any big improvements to this motor since i mentioned it in 2014. The direct drive hub world is in a sad state of affairs today.

neptronix said:

The direct drive hub world is in a sad state of affairs today.

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Indeed. If I had the equipment, I'd love to give making a really well-designed one a shot...

Thinking of something like a Leafbike motor, but with 0.2 mm laminations, and less mass, perhaps around 7-10 lbs. With the right design, I think peak efficiencies of around 95% are possible without much in the way of added cost, which would allow similar or better peak power when compared to the existing offering from Leafbike that would weigh twice as much. I'd also design it to be mechanically stout so to minimize or eliminate the risk of the motor case cracking under hard pedal input and with enough clearance to accept even 9, 10, 11, 12 speed cassettes into 135mm dropouts and not just the standard 6/7 speed stuff for which parts are becoming increasingly scarce.

Looking forward to trying this 1500W motor in my possession out. I'll be ordering the rest of the parts tomorrow evening, other than the batteries, which will wait a few more days. I'm eyeing some Panasonic 2170s for sale that I intend to build a pack out of. A 77.7V 20AH pack weighing in at 12 lbs would be really nice... It would also max out the Phaserunner controller and allow about 4.5 kW peak applied to the motor, which in a velomobile, would allow acceleration performance comparable to a slow car from the 1980s, highway speed capability without overheating the motor, and at city speeds, car-like range as well, while on the highway at highway speeds, range would still be comparable to a 1st gen Mitsubishi iMIEV or Nissan Leaf. It will likely prove to be a very usable and bulletproof setup suitable for long distance travel, and will have enough performance in scenarios where it is required.

The Toecutter
......, car-like range as well, while......

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I don't know what an ICE's car range is? Had a truck less than 300 miles on 20 ga gasoline ($40-$50). My 2013 leaf is down to around 70 miles ($2.3). My E-trike on one of two 25 amp 19 lb batteries its close to 120 miles and 150 mi if I am in miser mode ($0.18). I have charged my trike 23 times in 9 months (12 charges per battery almost) and have close to 1900 miles on them.