New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

I sleeved the axle non-drive side bearing with 0.05mm (0.002") brass shim sheet. It fits nicely now. It may have been possible to fit a very slightly thicker sheet, but the next size up I have is 0.076mm (0.003") which was too thick. The shim washers fit over and I'm able to put the circlip on.

I've replaced the axle bearing with a SKF 61902-2RS1. However the factory bearing is a C&U brand 61902RS, which from what I can find is a respectable name-brand Chinese bearing company.

Also looking at the metal gear I'll be fitting... The ball bearing is too loose in the gear for my liking, I can slide it in and out by hand. The bearing outer race is able to spin inside the gear (the original plastic gear isn't great either). I'll apply Loctite 641 to this, it's a medium strength removable retaining compound. The other popular compound 648 seems like overkill and may be impossible to remove in the future if the need arises. The roller clutch bearing was dry and I've applied SKF LGMT 2 grease to that.

I guess I could just use the retaining compound on the axle too, but the bearing fit is very loose and I think it will be difficult to align it correctly. I may put some only under the sleeve instead to hold that onto the shaft.
 

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ilu said:
1. It's too much for the motor controller or the wires for 6V output which are very thin. Use a relay or another switch to turn on the lights and connect them straight to the battery.

Thanks for the reply. Although I am not sure if I want to go that route, at least yet. I'd prefer to use the controller for the lights, but if 6V headlights aren't suitable I might have to wire them separately.

Can you or anyone else recommend (preferably somewhat powerful) headlights that are compatible through the motor controller?

Again thanks, you saved me a lot of worry and probably fried cables as well!
 
kalleg said:

I'm not sure why we have this repeated idea that you need some form retention on the motor. We run 650 W on extremely arduous mountain bike terrain doing about 1000m of climb in a couple of hours, there is far more torque applied in constant on off than ever road use will do. Do we need to have a retainer, nope never ever had a motor move on any of the 6 bikes we have fitted out ( all full suspension ).
 
0xdeadbeef said:
ilu said:
1. It's too much for the motor controller or the wires for 6V output which are very thin. Use a relay or another switch to turn on the lights and connect them straight to the battery.

Thanks for the reply. Although I am not sure if I want to go that route, at least yet. I'd prefer to use the controller for the lights, but if 6V headlights aren't suitable I might have to wire them separately.

Can you or anyone else recommend (preferably somewhat powerful) headlights that are compatible through the motor controller?

Again thanks, you saved me a lot of worry and probably fried cables as well!

6 volt lights are perfect, the problem is that the lights output power wire can only give a few watts - i.e. it's capable of giving enough power for lights "to be seen" but not enough for lights "to see". 10w lights will draw too much power and not work (or fry the motor controller). What the other poster is suggesting is that you wire a relay to the "lights" wire, and then the relay switches the actual lights on and off. Them you can use lights which take battery voltage directly (i.e. super powerful motorcycle lights), or you use a dc-dc converter module which takes the battery voltage and steps it down to 6v.

You'll still use the lights button on the display to switch on and off - just that the motor controller switches the relay on and off (which takes less than a watt), which then switches the actual power to the lights.
 
I noticed my battery mount is kinda fiddly, it moves way too much when riding on bumpy terrain to the point I had to secure the whole battery additionally with cable ties - not an ideal solution because I'd like to remove the battery every now and then.

I came across the following type of mount, where the zip ties go through a plastic bracket which itself mounts to the battery mount. Anyone know where I could find those or what are they called?
 

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0xdeadbeef said:
I noticed my battery mount is kinda fiddly, it moves way too much when riding on bumpy terrain to the point I had to secure the whole battery additionally with cable ties - not an ideal solution because I'd like to remove the battery every now and then.

I came across the following type of mount, where the zip ties go through a plastic bracket which itself mounts to the battery mount. Anyone know where I could find those or what are they called?

I can't help with your question sorry, but I added an extra two rivnuts for a total of four which holds a jumbo shark securely. There are YouTube videos about how to install the rivnuts without any special tools, except for a drill.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6H6wr7fJYo

If you can spread the weight sideways a bit it will help too, my battery and mount came with some rubber pads that wrap around the tube a little and stop the battery wobbling.
 

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famichiki said:
0xdeadbeef said:
I noticed my battery mount is kinda fiddly, it moves way too much when riding on bumpy terrain ....
......
If you can spread the weight sideways a bit it will help too, my battery and mount came with some rubber pads that wrap around the tube a little and stop the battery wobbling.
The mounts for tie wraps you have seen are 3D printed I think. Best you can ask the owner by PM.
I only have used the two rivetnuts of the waterbottle, but on two places on the ends of the mount I have drilled small holes for inserting tie wraps under the battery. I glued these rubber pads under the mount with hotglue, before I tie the wraps.
I have read too, that some fixed the mount over the complete lenght with hotglue on the frame combined with tie wraps.
That could be a solution for wobbling too, if you haven't (or not enough) these rubber pads. Hotglue stays a bit soft and is easy to remove afterwards.batterymount.jpg
 
famichiki said:
I sleeved the axle non-drive side bearing with 0.05mm (0.002") brass shim sheet. It fits nicely now. ....
Also looking at the metal gear I'll be fitting... ...
Your research is very enriching. I'm curious what will following.
I have found brass sheet too, but not the assort you have, but Chinese, so have to wait some time
I have ordered 0,02/0,03/0,05mm which I think is enough.
Also I have ordered a bunch of 6902 2RS bearings too and a couple of clips for mounting on the axle without groove.
I''m not planning to dissamble the axle and torquesensor, but only add the bearings on left and right side (3 without dustcaps).
For better fit I use the brass sheet and maybe some glue (between brass and bearing).
I have reservations about inserting the brass gear, because imho that isn't necessary anymore with OSF. It is more noisy too.
The weakest point now is slipping of the one way needle roller inside, but that is with brass gear too.
 
Elinx said:
I have reservations about inserting the brass gear, because imho that isn't necessary anymore with OSF. It is more noisy too.
The weakest point now is slipping of the one way needle roller inside, but that is with brass gear too.

I too have reservations about the brass gear. My blue gear is perfect after about 2,000km even though I have sometimes been quite rough during testing. The only reason I want to change it is for times when I will be far from help and cannot risk the blue gear failing. Have you heard of anyone still destroying them after installing OSF?

How do you mean the roller clutch bearing slipping? Slipping within the gear or on the shaft? Or broken in some other way? I was just reading on Jobike of someone who kept having problems so purchased five roller bearings for spares. I wonder if using a better quality roller bearing would be more reliable.

I noticed there are different versions of the brass gear. The one I purchased from PSWpower has much less chamfering at the ends compared to the blue gear, but I saw another online which looked more like the blue gear. Compare the ends of the teeth in the side-by-side photo below and the last photo of a metal gear I found online.

I wonder if the chamfered version is kinder to the motor spindle. And perhaps it is a tiny bit less inclined to rub on the electric motor housing if you have excessive play.
 

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Elinx said:
Also I have ordered a bunch of 6902 2RS bearings too and a couple of clips for mounting on the axle without groove.
I''m not planning to dissamble the axle and torquesensor, but only add the bearings on left and right side (3 without dustcaps).

I haven't looked into it very much but there is a chance both a bearing and dust seal could be fitted to the drive side of the axle. If you push the bearing in so it's only partially seated in the spider, it leaves a few mm where a seal might fit. Seals start from 3mm thick. Flanged bearings look interesting for here too as no risk of falling out.
https://www.kugellager-express.de/deep-groove-ball-bearing-flanged-f-6902-2rs-f61902-2rs-15x28x7-mm
 

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famichiki said:
Have you heard of anyone still destroying them after installing OSF?
I saw it here
famichiki said:
How do you mean the roller clutch bearing slipping? ...
This is what I mean
famichiki said:
I noticed there are different versions of the brass gear. ..... And perhaps it is a tiny bit less inclined to rub on the electric motor housing if you have excessive play.
You only know this, if it is broken :wink:
famichiki said:
...... Flanged bearings look interesting for here too as no risk of falling out.....
That sounds as a interesting solution for the spider I will to consider for sure. Thanks

FYI: I saw wider bearings too 15x28x >> 13-14-18-20-23mm, but don't know if this has more advantage than just more 7mm bearings.

Q: I have not yet dissambled the spider (I wait for the bearings), but I'm curious how much the distance is between the circlip of the main gear bearing and the spider (without dustcap). Can you say something meaningfull about it? Thanks in advance.
 
Reputable bearing manufacturers list a torque spec. for the one way clutch in the rubber/brass gear. It can vary quite a bit. I think I've seen them from 9-14Nm.
It's entirely possible that bearing fit , and quality may be behind the rubber gear problem.
 
Retrorockit said:
Reputable bearing manufacturers list a torque spec. .... from 9-14Nm.....
I saw the most are 12,2Nm, but maybe there are better bearings to find.
Retrorockit said:
.....
It's entirely possible that bearing fit , and quality may be behind the rubber gear problem.
Ánother problem are also the wide tolerances what only can overcome by adding shims, sheets and glue.
Even the best bearing isn't optimal if it doesnt fit right

There are bearings and bearings with prices and prices.
The challenge is to find the best that suits you for the price that suits you.

Same is for the CSK30P (inside the main gear). A Stieber version is around € 100,- (more or less)
I think it is a premium bearing, but for that amount (1/3 of the motorvalue) the tsdz2 will not be better.
 
0xdeadbeef said:
ilu said:
1. It's too much for the motor controller or the wires for 6V output which are very thin. Use a relay or another switch to turn on the lights and connect them straight to the battery.

Thanks for the reply. Although I am not sure if I want to go that route, at least yet. I'd prefer to use the controller for the lights, but if 6V headlights aren't suitable I might have to wire them separately.

Can you or anyone else recommend (preferably somewhat powerful) headlights that are compatible through the motor controller?

Again thanks, you saved me a lot of worry and probably fried cables as well!

Yes - I am running the following directly from the motor
Busch + Müller Lumotec IQ Cyo Premium E Front Light for E-Bikes - 1752Q42/6N https://www.bike24.com/p2194214.html
Busch + Müller Toplight View E Rear Light for E-Bikes - 321ASDC https://www.bike24.com/p2193855.html

See here for more detail https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=79788&p=1477871#p1477871
 
Elinx said:
Retrorockit said:
Reputable bearing manufacturers list a torque spec. .... from 9-14Nm.....
I saw the most are 12,2Nm, but maybe there are better bearings to find.

The datasheet for the INA HF1216-L564 roller clutch bearing says it's 12.2 Nm and they are pricey, but if your gear teeth are still is good condition then this is a better option.
https://docs.rs-online.com/6e7e/0900766b815c1848.pdf

I've ordered new bearings for each end of the reduction shaft.

- Nachi 6001-2NSE9CM for the pinion gear end
- SKF 608-2RSH for the electric motor end

Both these bearings are interesting.

The Nachi bearing is CM clearance specification, slightly tighter than normal and intended for low-noise applications in electric motors.

CN is normal clearance, and if not mentioned it then it's usually CN. CM falls within the CN specification range, but are hand selected to be at the tighter end of the range.

The looser C3 is another common clearance you will see, but this is for when thermal expansion needs to be allowed for.

The SKF bearing features heavy duty seals (RSH designation) and is less likely to lose its grease or become contaminated, so should have a longer service life with less risk of excessive play developing.

Elinx said:
famichiki said:
Have you heard of anyone still destroying them after installing OSF?
I saw it here

Yeah, that's a bit messy. I wonder what caused it. When I refit the reduction shaft I'll have to check if there is any difference in the way the blue or metal gears mesh with the motor spindle. A quick measurement shows the diameter of the blue gear to be 37.9mm and brass gear is 37.5mm, so slightly smaller.

But were they running OSF? I was asking about if anyone had destroyed the blue gears after installing OSF. I wonder what the record mileage is for the original blue gear.

Edit: Seems like Casainho had a failure of the blue gear :(
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=79788&start=5175#p1478345

Elinx said:
famichiki said:
How do you mean the roller clutch bearing slipping? ...
This is what I mean

It appears the roller bearings are supposed to be lubricated (with non-EP grease such as SKF LGMT2) so dry fitment may be a contributor. Oil or WD-40 (yuck) isn't going to last very long.

So the roller clutch could benefit from having retaining compound applied where it slides into the gear. It may be impossible to the remove again though, especially from the plastic gear.

However those photos in the wiki are strange, the roller clutch bearing outer shell is not splined.
https://au.rs-online.com/web/p/roller-bearings/1371787/

The stock photos in the wiki show a different construction to the user's bearing removal photos. If you look at the last two photos it looks like the bearing is actually within two splined sleeves. One is being pushed out with the bearing, while the other remains.

The stock photo (and damaged photo) only shows one sleeve, which is the same as the the blue gear here on my desk.

Elinx said:
famichiki said:
I noticed there are different versions of the brass gear. ..... And perhaps it is a tiny bit less inclined to rub on the electric motor housing if you have excessive play.
You only know this, if it is broken :wink:
I read of someone having excessive noise immediately after installing a metal gear, which required adding additional spacer washers underneath it. I can't remember if they had only one washer or none there from the factory. Mine came with one, did some motors come with two?
 
A question about the temperature sensor and 8-wire controller: where do you get the +5V and GND from? The pictures on the wiki aren't very clear on that: https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-firmware/TSDZ2_wiki/wiki/How-to-install-motor-temperature-sensor#8-wire-throttle-type it's not super clear what's going on here.
 
famichiki said:
.....CN is normal clearance, and if not mentioned it then it's usually CN. CM falls within the CN specification range, but are hand selected to be at the tighter end of the range. .....
I think even the best bearing has problems with Tsdz2 tolerances :)

source
[youtube]7aoPaIXCoxE[/youtube]
 
Elinx said:
famichiki said:
.....CN is normal clearance, and if not mentioned it then it's usually CN. CM falls within the CN specification range, but are hand selected to be at the tighter end of the range. .....
I think even the best bearing has problems with Tsdz2 tolerances :)

That was an interesting video and this is true for the axle, but anything we can do to minimise it will help.

The reduction shaft does not have that same problem. The shaft end bearings fit firmly within the gear case, electric motor case, and on the reduction shaft. The play to be concerned about here is within the bearings themselves. This is what the CN/CM etc clearances refer to, play between the inner and outer bearing races. It is more prevalent in poorly made and worn bearings.

Going back the axle, I do wonder if these are made intentionally too small for a reason. Will it become even less reliable if we remove play and firm things up?

Look at the drive side end of the axle for example. Outside of the circlip groove a bearing slips on loosely, but can't be easily pushed on further than the groove. You could likely press the bearing on and it would be a great fit. The difference in axle diameter is minuscule, so why have they made the area under the oil seal smaller than under the torque sensor? To me, it seems they have done this intentionally. The same goes for the shaft diameter on the non-drive side inside and outside of the splined area.

Regarding the circlip grooves perhaps the reason the axles are breaking there is because the inner corners at the bottom of the groove are sharp. To reduce stress they need to be curved. There was some talk of a stronger axle, I wonder if this was corrected? I also wonder if the fatbike extended axles corrected this, because those seem to readily break too.

There pictures are not of the axle, but you get the idea of what is required. The first shows how my standard axle looks.

bad-groove.jpg

All internal corners need to be rounded to avoid stress concentration and eventual fracture.

good-groove.png
 
famichiki said:
...... true for the axle, but anything we can do to minimise it will help........
...... the axle, I do wonder if these are made intentionally too small for a reason. Will it become even less reliable if we remove play and firm things up? .....
You have seen the contradiction?
But if it was made intentionally that way, I wonder what the reason is.
I can only think that the assembling and dissambling could be faster that way, but that can only be answered by Tongsheng.
The actual play becomes more worse after some time. The sprag clutch will be wear out faster.
 
The Nachi 6001-2NSE9CM bearing I discussed a few posts back has arrived, it's for the pinion gear end of the reduction shaft. It feels really nice and tight, even by hand I can tell the internal play is much improved over the factory SYBS 6001RS.
 

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Elinx said:
famichiki said:
How do you mean the roller clutch bearing slipping? ...
This is what I mean

No way the roller clutch is slipping within my blue or brass gears. I tried tapping them out and they won't budge. Maybe they are adding a retaining compound there now or have improved the fit. I think I'd need to put them in the press to remove but I won't bother going any further with this.
 
Hey where did you get this puller?

famichiki said:
As much as I can tell, it looks like the older versions of the motors were put together better and with closer tolerances. Older models have the double non-drive side bearings, proper shims on the axle and sprag clutch, and a tighter fitting sprag clutch with wider inner race contact area that was difficult to remove without a puller. On the newer model the sprag clutch fitment is sloppy and it just slips off by hand. Compare the photo below with the ones in my previous post here:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=79788&start=7525#p1574456

puller.jpg
jbalat-sprag-clutch.jpg
 
Thanks to everyone that has been helping and are now helping with this excellent firmware.
I've been spending a tremendous amount of time trying to figure out the best way to use version 1 on handcycles. At this point version, 1 is better than version 20 in all but the 3 ways below.

(1) Starting from a dead stop needs to be improved, it doesn't have enough assistance and shakes and vibrates for the first half rotation.
(2) With a coaster brake when pedaling and you want to reverse the crank rotation to brake, there is a great amount of resistance until you move the pedals forward again about a half-inch and then back again to brake. This problem was there in version 19 and Buba fixed it in version 20. If someone would please look into the difference between version 20 and version 19 to see what was done to fix this reverse resistance? And then make those changes to version 1! In settings, if the coaster brake motor is chosen or not and if the fast stop setting is chosen or not does not have any effect on this.
(3) It does have a small amount of overrun, but with the coaster brake motor you just hold back on the cranks and it stops. It would be nice to have this fixed. In settings, if the coaster brake motor is chosen or not and if the fast stop setting is chosen or not does not have any effect on this.

Version 20 is very easy to navigate and EMTB is an awesome setting. Version 1 is very refined but complicated. But after a lot of work and with help we have figured out where the settings need to be for handcycles so that it works well, and without torque sensor calibration being necessary.

I've attached a file showing my settings and photos showing my settings. Please comment and help solve these problems above at any time. Without this software and all the hard work that has gone and is going into it, it is much more difficult to take advantage of the TSZ2 on handcycles. Do not use any of these settings past level 5 or the motor will overheat without proper cooling.

Sometime in the next couple of weeks, I will include detailed photos and a description of how I liquid-cooled the TSDZ2 so it can handle double the power without overheating. A hint is, a small pump moves fluid threw the motor to a small radiator and back to cool it down. Not just any coolant or oil works well, after many trials it’s working well.

Motor.jpgAssist Level.jpgTorque Sensor.jpgStartup Boost.jpgView attachment Jeff's Features and configurations on display 850C-860C V1.0.0.rtf
 
RicMcK said:
Hey where did you get this puller?

famichiki said:
As much as I can tell, it looks like the older versions of the motors were put together better and with closer tolerances. Older models have the double non-drive side bearings, proper shims on the axle and sprag clutch, and a tighter fitting sprag clutch with wider inner race contact area that was difficult to remove without a puller. On the newer model the sprag clutch fitment is sloppy and it just slips off by hand. Compare the photo below with the ones in my previous post here:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=79788&start=7525#p1574456

puller.jpg
jbalat-sprag-clutch.jpg

That photo is not mine, it's from the repair manual. However similar style pullers are used in automotive applications for removing harmonic balancers. Search for harmonic balancer puller, pulley puller or gear puller but you are unlikely to find one with M5 bolts that fit the gear so may need to modify it. I've made similar devices myself when needed.

Here's a couple of different examples.
https://alexnld.com/product/13pcs-harmonic-balancer-puller-gear-pulley-puller-steering-wheel-remover-removal/
https://www.otctools.com/products/gear-pulley-puller-0

In our case there's not enough room to get the jaw type behind the gear, and also they are likely to damage the teeth. One might work if you put in a few bolts and can get the jaw teeth to grip under the bolt heads.

But as I said, for newer models the gear practically falls off by itself.
 
jeff.page.rides said:
Thanks to everyone that has been helping and are now helping with this excellent firmware.
I've been spending a tremendous amount of time trying to figure out the best way to use version 1 on handcycles. At this point version, 1 is better than version 20 in all but the 3 ways below.

(1) Starting from a dead stop needs to be improved, it doesn't have enough assistance and shakes and vibrates for the first half rotation.
(2) With a coaster brake when pedaling and you want to reverse the crank rotation to brake, there is a great amount of resistance until you move the pedals forward again about a half-inch and then back again to brake. This problem was there in version 19 and Buba fixed it in version 20. If someone would please look into the difference between version 20 and version 19 to see what was done to fix this reverse resistance? And then make those changes to version 1! In settings, if the coaster brake motor is chosen or not and if the fast stop setting is chosen or not does not have any effect on this.
(3) It does have a small amount of overrun, but with the coaster brake motor you just hold back on the cranks and it stops. It would be nice to have this fixed. In settings, if the coaster brake motor is chosen or not and if the fast stop setting is chosen or not does not have any effect on this.

Version 20 is very easy to navigate and EMTB is an awesome setting. Version 1 is very refined but complicated. But after a lot of work and with help we have figured out where the settings need to be for handcycles so that it works well, and without torque sensor calibration being necessary.

I've attached a file showing my settings and photos showing my settings. Please comment and help solve these problems above at any time. Without this software and all the hard work that has gone and is going into it, it is much more difficult to take advantage of the TSZ2 on handcycles. Do not use any of these settings past level 5 or the motor will overheat without proper cooling.

Sometime in the next couple of weeks, I will include detailed photos and a description of how I liquid-cooled the TSDZ2 so it can handle double the power without overheating. A hint is, a small pump moves fluid threw the motor to a small radiator and back to cool it down. Not just any coolant or oil works well, after many trials it’s working well.

Motor.jpgAssist Level.jpgTorque Sensor.jpgStartup Boost.jpgJeff's Features and configurations on display 850C-860C V1.0.0.rtf

I drove over to electrifybike.com this afternoon and we programed 2 handcycles with these newest settings for the National Ability Center, that have throttles on them. Electrify loves the new setting so much, they are much more usable for a HANDCYCLE. We discussed what we could do to be able to use these awesome settings and still not meltdown the TSDZ2 when pedaling and when using the throttle. What we came up with was that you don't use the throttle for more than a few feet at a time to get threw a tough spot, then you can use level 1-5. But if you're using it to get up a Hill then it has to be in level 1 if hot outside or level 2 if its cool outside, otherwise, it'll fry the motor. When you're on a handcycle the Motors right in front of your face so signs that it's too hot are very easy to recognize. If it starts to get louder it's too hot, if you touch it and can feel that it's hot it's too hot. We Suggest you use the settings with some common sense and your motor should last a long time. My fist motor has over 5000 miles on it. The newer motor has over 2500 miles. If you turn it up with the throttle or turn it up to much when it's hot outside even if you're pedaling it can overheat and you could fry it.
So just use common sense, work a little harder and your motor should last a long time!
Later,
Jeff
 
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