New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Elinx said:
famichiki said:
...... true for the axle, but anything we can do to minimise it will help........
...... the axle, I do wonder if these are made intentionally too small for a reason. Will it become even less reliable if we remove play and firm things up? .....
You have seen the contradiction?
But if it was made intentionally that way, I wonder what the reason is.
I can only think that the assembling and dissambling could be faster that way, but that can only be answered by Tongsheng.
The actual play becomes more worse after some time. The sprag clutch will be wear out faster.

Not a "qualified" engineer but I think that less play requires better overall casing tolerances to avoid univen stresses in the bearings. That might be the reason why they ended up with play like this.
 
skestans said:
A question about the temperature sensor and 8-wire controller: where do you get the +5V and GND from? The pictures on the wiki aren't very clear on that: https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-firmware/TSDZ2_wiki/wiki/How-to-install-motor-temperature-sensor#8-wire-throttle-type it's not super clear what's going on here.

I'm about to tackle this myself, there is a little bit more info in this post but it's the same photo from the wiki. If you've already done this and have some tips please share them.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1489282#p1489282

Here's the factory wiring I have in that area for the 8-pin cable.
 

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famichiki said:
skestans said:
A question about the temperature sensor and 8-wire controller: where do you get the +5V and GND from? The pictures on the wiki aren't very clear on that: https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-firmware/TSDZ2_wiki/wiki/How-to-install-motor-temperature-sensor#8-wire-throttle-type it's not super clear what's going on here.

I'm about to tackle this myself, there is a little bit more info in this post but it's the same photo from the wiki. If you've already done this and have some tips please share them.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1489282#p1489282

Here's the factory wiring I have in that area for the 8-pin cable.

I'm uploading an unedited video I made doing this last year. At the end of the day, you just need to make sure the colours haven't changed, so you don't let the magic smoke out! In my case, orange (8 wire throttle version) is the onboard ADC previously used for the throttle, so I cut it to use for the temp sensor centre leg (blue). For the white (5v) and the black (GND) I cut and then splice into them as they are required for the screen. Just make sure you trace where the white and orange go on the board to make sure they haven't change the colours on later boards (see the photo referenced above

Let me know if you have any further questions.

https://youtu.be/oR-hvIms-G8

Steve
 
mctubster said:
Let me know if you have any further questions.

Thanks for sharing that video, could you please double-check I have labelled this correctly? All these wires are from the 8-pin cable, they are splayed out because I've cut the cable to shorten it. This motor is the newer revision, purchased mid-2019.

Orange = Throttle signal
White = +5 Volts
Black = Ground
 

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famichiki said:
Thanks for sharing that video, could you please double-check I have labelled this correctly?

Orange = Throttle signal
White = +5 Volts
Black = Ground

OK I had a dig through the images from the forum and found a better image and a better video I have too. Yes your labelling looks correct except I'm not sure I have the black wire that you labelled. Just use the black wire in the 8 wire loom along with the white and orange wires going to the display.

https://youtu.be/C2U7PKTt02s

TSDZ2_motor_controller_with_throttle_wires.jpeg
 
For the ones that are installing our OpenSource firmware and discarding the VLCD5 remote button, save it! I hope soon everyone can reuse it to make a wireless remote button that will work to control the wireless TSDZ2 as also the GPS unit as I am doing here:

[youtube]AhgU8M5qEPg[/youtube]

Sure, the ones that do not want to save some money doing it, can always buy wireless remote like this from Garmin:

image.png
 
mctubster said:
famichiki said:
Thanks for sharing that video, could you please double-check I have labelled this correctly?

Orange = Throttle signal
White = +5 Volts
Black = Ground

OK I had a dig through the images from the forum and found a better image and a better video I have too. Yes your labelling looks correct except I'm not sure I have the black wire that you labelled. Just use the black wire in the 8 wire loom along with the white and orange wires going to the display.

https://youtu.be/C2U7PKTt02s

TSDZ2_motor_controller_with_throttle_wires.jpeg

Ok, what I've labelled on that photo all seems correct then. Thanks for your help. I also found a previous discussion you were involved with, I followed my wiring to the connector with a multimeter and it matches the diagram.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1479105#p1479105

I've edited my post to say that all the wires I labelled are actually from the 8-pin wire loom, they are splayed out because I've cut the cable to shorten it. So it seems the black ground wire in the cable is being taken from a different place now.
 
casainho said:
For the ones that are installing our OpenSource firmware and discarding the VLCD5 remote button, save it! I hope soon everyone can reuse it to make a wireless remote button that will work to control the wireless TSDZ2 as also the GPS unit as I am doing here:

How does the VLCD5 remote output the button signal, is it a different resistance for each button?

What are you using for the input to the controller, the throttle input or something else?

Can the brake input be repurposed to read analog signals or any other way to get an additional analog input?
 
famichiki said:
Ok, what I've labelled on that photo all seems correct then. Thanks for your help. I also found a previous discussion you were involved with, I followed my wiring to the connector with a multimeter and it matches the diagram.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1479105#p1479105

I've edited my post to say that all the wires I labelled are actually from the 8-pin wire loom, they are splayed out because I've cut the cable to shorten it. So it seems the black ground wire in the cable is being taken from a different place now.

Great stuff. Are you able to update the wiki? If not I can do it later today.

Steve
 
mctubster said:
Great stuff. Are you able to update the wiki? If not I can do it later today.

Steve

I have never tried before, do I need to request permission? Feel free to use my labelled photo if you don't mind doing it.
 
famichiki said:
I have never tried before, do I need to request permission? Feel free to use my labelled photo if you don't mind doing it.
OK done. Thanks for the great photo which I forgot to take!
 
famichiki said:
casainho said:
For the ones that are installing our OpenSource firmware and discarding the VLCD5 remote button, save it! I hope soon everyone can reuse it to make a wireless remote button that will work to control the wireless TSDZ2 as also the GPS unit as I am doing here:

1. How does the VLCD5 remote output the button signal, is it a different resistance for each button?
The idea is to have the buttons of VLCD5 remote to connect on a small wireless board. Each button state will be sent using standard wireless protocol for remote control buttons. Doing this, it works as seen on the video and my GPS cycling computer detects the buttons press.

The small wireless board implements both ANT+ and Bluetooth, as needed. It will use a small coin cell. Here the schematic (note that the brakes sensor connection is not tested yet, may be to slow or not the communication for brakes):

file.php


And my setup for now, with flash debug pins of STLinkV2 wired as also external power supply instead of the coin cell:
image.png


famichiki said:
2. What are you using for the input to the controller, the throttle input or something else?

3. Can the brake input be repurposed to read analog signals or any other way to get an additional analog input?
I don't understand well your questions... but maybe you are missing the information of this project.

There will be another wireless board that will connect to TSDZ2 motor. This board will implement the standard o wireless EBike meaning any GPS cycling computer will be able to connect to it - I have it working now, I am using for testing my Garmin Edge cycling computer, see here a testing I did:

I got the motor voltage / power for TSDZ2 being turned on and off when I change the EBike assist level to 0, on my GPS cycling computer:

[youtube]P9KJfSMeXSI[/youtube]

And a picture of my current board (yes, I am always using the same wireless board as the main board). The big blue board converts the battery voltage of 24V ~ 52V to 5V to power the wireless board. What is missing is the UART TX and RX to the TSDZ2 motor, I did not tested that yet:
image.png
 
For future reference (or to help a newbie like me).
E03 Error (LCD05 with Marcoq Fw, based on Casainho work) - Today when i wanted to comute to work i got this error on my display. the Bike was ok when i left it overnight. The only differente thing i did yesterday is that i shut the battery down but only disconnected the Black wire (yeah stupid but i had a important calll :( ) .

Resolution: program again the controller. After it all was alright.
 
Anyone ever Badly strip one of the four internal screws that attaches the motor to the gear housing and how Did you remove it? Thanks
 
Big_Daddy said:
Anyone ever Badly strip one of the four internal screws that attaches the motor to the gear housing and how Did you remove it? Thanks

I began to strip one but got it out. Normally to remove you need a good fitting phillips head and firm pressure to keep it from camming out. If it's too far gone, you may have to very slowly try to drill the head out of the screw. I just switched mine to torx so I don't get this problem again.

torx.jpg
 
famichiki said:
Big_Daddy said:
Anyone ever Badly strip one of the four internal screws that attaches the motor to the gear housing and how Did you remove it? Thanks

I began to strip one but got it out. Normally to remove you need a good fitting phillips head and firm pressure to keep it from camming out. If it's too far gone, you may have to very slowly try to drill the head out of the screw. I just switched mine to torx so I don't get this problem again.

torx.jpg

Try a fast drying epoxy (2 part) with your best fitting screwdriver. Make sure it sets properly before trying. Try "snapping" the turning of the screwdriver. Rather than smoothly increasing the torque, more of a jerk impulse to overcome any pseudo welding etc. Or cut a slot into it (with a dremal) and use a flat screwdriver. I think I got close on one of mine, the metal is soft :\
 
I'd like to fit a connector to the 3 electric motor wires so I can just unplug without needing to unscrew the terminals. I'm hoping to make it easier to replace the blue gear out on the road if need be.

MR30 look interesting, can anyone here share their experience with these or have any other suggestions?
https://hobbyking.com/en_us/mr30-2-0mm-3pins-connector-male-only-5-sets-per-bag.html
 

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Doohickey said:
I have a strange problem - today I did the improved cooling mod described on the OSF wiki (adding thermal compound and pads). I also extended the motor phase wires by about 8cm (one of the screws joining the wires wouldn't hold in anymore, plus I wanted to be able to take out the inner motor without disconnecting it..).

What size wire did you extend the motor wires with? The factory wires are about 2mm including insulation, so I guess the core is 1.5mm? Will 16 AWG be fine or do I need to go thicker? They are very solid feeling wires too, I wonder if there is any harm in using something more flexible.
 
famichiki said:
Doohickey said:
I have a strange problem - today I did the improved cooling mod described on the OSF wiki (adding thermal compound and pads). I also extended the motor phase wires by about 8cm (one of the screws joining the wires wouldn't hold in anymore, plus I wanted to be able to take out the inner motor without disconnecting it..).

What size wire did you extend the motor wires with? The factory wires are about 2mm including insulation, so I guess the core is 1.5mm? Will 16 AWG be fine or do I need to go thicker? They are very solid feeling wires too, I wonder if there is any harm in using something more flexible.

The wires I used came off an ancient ATX computer power supply, so... "ancient computer power supply size". No idea what size exactly it was, but they looked about the same size as original. The problem I had was something other than my wire extension, and no issues with it since. (I haven't opened it to check for potential meltedness, but I also run mine limited to 350w). I also did it to be able to check / replace the gear more easily, since I do longer trips with it.

If I were to do it again i'd use some kind of connector, the mr30 or other xt60 style three pins ones look nice. With the direct soldered wires, if the motor falls off the bike while pulled out, it will rip the wire out.
 
Doohickey said:
The wires I used came off an ancient ATX computer power supply, so... "ancient computer power supply size". No idea what size exactly it was, but they looked about the same size as original. The problem I had was something other than my wire extension, and no issues with it since. (I haven't opened it to check for potential meltedness, but I also run mine limited to 350w). I also did it to be able to check / replace the gear more easily, since I do longer trips with it.

If I were to do it again i'd use some kind of connector, the mr30 or other xt60 style three pins ones look nice. With the direct soldered wires, if the motor falls off the bike while pulled out, it will rip the wire out.

I've ordered both the 3-pin flat MR30 and triangular MT30 connectors to see which fits best. The MT60 looks pretty big and I don't think there's enough room inside the housing for it. The 30s are supposed to be rated for a continuous 30amp, and given the motor wiring is only 16AWG this should be fine even if overstated. The largest wire the 30s will take is 16AWG.
 

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vass said:
For future reference (or to help a newbie like me).
E03 Error (LCD05 with Marcoq Fw, based on Casainho work) - Today when i wanted to comute to work i got this error on my display. the Bike was ok when i left it overnight. The only differente thing i did yesterday is that i shut the battery down but only disconnected the Black wire (yeah stupid but i had a important calll :( ) .

Resolution: program again the controller. After it all was alright.

next time disconnect the red wire instead :) but before turn everything off by the buttons
 
famichiki said:
Continuing on my quest for removing play.

Adding a shim washer to the sprag clutch/big gear wasn't as effective as I'd hoped. After re-fitting the spider the wobble was reduced but still excessive.

As others have found, the tolerances between sprag clutch and torque sensor are poor and would benefit from sleeving. On mine the little key is also loose and wouldn't hurt to be a better fit.

But the factory sprag clutches have an issue too. Comparing it to the third-party replacement I purchased, the factory item has a much larger radius curvature on each side of the inner race. This means that the flat contact area with the shaft is reduced. The replacement has very minimal curvature and is a much better fit. You can see the differences in the photo below, especially around the key way.

radius.jpg

Looking at the wear pattern on the torque sensor, we can see that even though the sprag clutch is specified at 16mm thick the contact area is only about 10mm

In comparison, the replacement sprag clutch has a wider contact area of about 13.5mm.

contact-area.jpg

Original sprag clutch.
sprag-clutch-original.jpg

Replacement sprag clutch.
sprag-clutch-replacement.jpg

Additionally, the torque sensor has a small protrustion that the sprag clutch sits up against. Fitting the shim here like on the older models may be better than on the circlip side.

torque-sensor-protrusion.jpg

I also experimented with using aluminium foil as a shim, this actually worked really well with the original sprag clutch. There was still play but it's within the sprag clutch and so we are stuck with it. The best I can measure is that the foil is 0.07mm thick. It was a tight fit and you need to grease the foil and work slowly or it catches and tears. I needed to gently tap mine on.

Finding shim or feeler gauge in this thickness is difficult and can be expensive, but a quick search turned up this.
https://us.misumi-ec.com/vona2/detail/110300238820/

Edit.. I just bought some assorted brass shim sheet cheap.

foil.jpg

I did the same, putting aluminium kitchen foil, I wonder how long it will stay like that without wobble
 
vshitikov said:
vass said:
For future reference (or to help a newbie like me).
E03 Error (LCD05 with Marcoq Fw, based on Casainho work) - Today when i wanted to comute to work i got this error on my display. the Bike was ok when i left it overnight. The only differente thing i did yesterday is that i shut the battery down but only disconnected the Black wire (yeah stupid but i had a important calll :( ) .

Resolution: program again the controller. After it all was alright.

next time disconnect the red wire instead :) but before turn everything off by the buttons

Hehehehe, i usualy do that, strange that it corrupted the controller
 
I was just informed that if you use the throttle it doesn't matter what setting you use, it has the same amount of power. I've never used a throttle so I wouldn't know for sure. If it's true that using the throttle is the same no matter what setting you're in, that means you need to be very careful of how much you use the throttle or you're gonna burn it up in every setting.
Is this true, is this the way the throttle works?
If so it would be great to have settings that affect how much power the throttle is using!
Please reply what your experience with the throttle is?

Below is the way I thought the Throttle works.
I drove over to electrifybike.com this afternoon and we programed 2 handcycles with these newest settings for the National Ability Center, that have throttles on them. Electrify loves the new setting so much, they are much more usable for a HANDCYCLE. We discussed what we could do to be able to use these awesome settings and still not meltdown the TSDZ2 when pedaling and when using the throttle. What we came up with was that you don't use the throttle for more than a few feet at a time to get threw a tough spot, then you can use level 1-5. But if you're using it to get up a Hill then it has to be in level 1 if hot outside or level 2 if its cool outside, otherwise, it'll fry the motor. When you're on a handcycle the Motors right in front of your face so signs that it's too hot are very easy to recognize. If it starts to get louder it's too hot, if you touch it and can feel that it's hot it's too hot. We Suggest you use the settings with some common sense and your motor should last a long time. My fist motor has over 5000 miles on it. The newer motor has over 2500 miles. If you turn it up with the throttle or turn it up to much when it's hot outside even if you're pedaling it can overheat and you could fry it.
So just use common sense, work a little harder and your motor should last a long time!

Thanks,
Jeff
 
jeff.page.rides said:
Please reply what your experience with the throttle is?
Hi Jeff,
I have a 6 pin no throttle version 36v TSDZ2 on a 20" Dahon folding bike. Recently I have extended it with a DIY "throttle".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXmfLcXRk3M
Now I have it on my handlebar with a switch I can disable it. Working like a cruise control / tempomat.
If you set your assist to zero it disables throttle as well.
With my app I can see the actual ampere used by the motor. Fyi, there are some data I have noted:
  • with the throttle the RPM of the motor is controlled. As far as I feel assist level has no influence on it.
  • I have never used throttle to start the bike.
  • on flat road already in motion using the throttle:
    • with around 5 ampere continuously I can maintain around 20Km/h speed.
    • my max speed is around 33Km/h for which to maintain I pay around 11 ampere continuously.
  • Upwards even with easiest gear combination it can go up to 11 ampere. Actually in case of hill I do not use throttle.
  • if I pedal it hard then in assist level 4 I can hit 15-17 ampere for a moment. Then by next turn again. But it is definitely not continuous like the throttle, but actually higher for the moment.
  • I did recently a test trip. I used my diy "throttle" 90% and only at upwards or at crosses I used pedaling.
    Distance: 53Km, Altitude: 103m - 115m. Time: 3 hours. My 2 years old 14.5AH 36V battery has gotten almost empty.
    And I used max 5-6 ampere continuously.
 
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