Your thoughts on frames and riding positions?

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
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neptronix   100 GW

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Re: Your thoughts on frames and riding positions?

Post by neptronix » Nov 18 2020 1:46pm

donn wrote:
Nov 18 2020 1:07pm
But the problem is that honestly, in my experience, they aren't noticeably faster; depending on the terrain, they may be slower. HPV speed records, sure, with somewhat extreme vehicles; those things couldn't realistically participate in a road race whether banned or not. The ordinary run of the mill recumbent bicycle has the primary advantage that it's like riding a lawn chair on wheels, which is comfortable and fun.
Well my experience is different than yours but it may come down to a difference in our bodies and maybe even our bikes.

I have about 2000 miles in the last year under my belt of riding two different semi recumbent bikes without a motor in a fairly hilly area.

I am in my late 30's, weigh 200lbs, have 3 bone deformities, a undiagnosed minor heart condition, and both of my semi recumbents run heavy "puncture proof" tires on the rear. So i have multiple disadvantages.

Compared to lycras on skinny tired bikes, i have been passed while riding up a hill quite a few times but have never been passed on a flat or downhill. There was one time that a guy almost kept up with me on a flat.. he looked like he may be all of 140lbs, wearing full lycra, in a full tuck, and was rolling on tires that were as wide as a penny ( a little more than half an inch wide ). I did pass him at something like 0.5mph faster than he was going.

My 5 minute top speed on the smaller recumbent ( bikeE ) is 24.1mph and on a roadbike i formerly owned, it was 21.2 mph.
donn wrote:
Nov 18 2020 1:07pm
Now put a motor on them and they are significantly more efficient, as an order of magnitude more power makes wind resistance a much larger factor.
That's exactly why electrified semi/full recumbents shold be more common place. The battery per mile requirements can get cut between 30-75% at the higher speeds we travel. I am frankly surprised there are not more bents on here.
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500 MTB.
Monster MTB: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: Heavy duty Cannondale semi recumbent - under construction.
Blue Dream: Maxaraya FS semi recumbent and high efficiency mid-drive - under construction.

Balmorhea   1 MW

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Re: Your thoughts on frames and riding positions?

Post by Balmorhea » Nov 18 2020 5:29pm

neptronix wrote:
Nov 18 2020 11:43am
Recumbents were banned by the UCI in 1934 when an average rider was repeatedly clobbering everyone.
That's why you never see a company make a flagship recumbent bike and you never see one in a race.
Most of the regular, y'know, normal boring bikes out there are not UCI rules compliant, because they have rear axle spacing of 135mm or more. That hasn't held back their commercial prospects at all.

I suggest that UCI rules have nothing to do with the market success of recumbents, just like they have nothing to do with the prevalence of MTBs, cruisers, touring bikes, and city bikes that many of us ride.

Recumbents have prevailed and thrived purely on their own merits! Everyone has one because they're the best!

If it were up to me, I wouldn't allow 'bents in any kind of mass start cycle racing; it's not fair to participants who don't want to crash. Solo time trials-- sure, why not?
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neptronix   100 GW

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Re: Your thoughts on frames and riding positions?

Post by neptronix » Nov 18 2020 5:42pm

There's a pretty big difference between 10mm of axle spacing and a completely different bicycle design.

You say UCI rules have nothing to do with market success of recumbents but bicycles have had 135mm or less axle spacing for many decades until pretty recently. They also control something like 95% of bike racing. So perhaps they do have some swing on mainstream bike design, i dunno.

MCdonalds is also the best hamburger because they have sold the most of them.
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500 MTB.
Monster MTB: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: Heavy duty Cannondale semi recumbent - under construction.
Blue Dream: Maxaraya FS semi recumbent and high efficiency mid-drive - under construction.

Balmorhea   1 MW

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Re: Your thoughts on frames and riding positions?

Post by Balmorhea » Nov 18 2020 7:33pm

It's actually more like observing that hamburgers are more common than peanut butter and pickle sandwiches.

Nothing wrong with a good PB&P, if that's how you roll.
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markz   100 GW

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Re: Your thoughts on frames and riding positions?

Post by markz » Nov 18 2020 7:51pm

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Balmorhea wrote:
Nov 18 2020 7:33pm
It's actually more like observing that hamburgers are more common than peanut butter and pickle sandwiches.

Nothing wrong with a good PB&P, if that's how you roll.

donn   10 kW

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Re: Your thoughts on frames and riding positions?

Post by donn » Nov 18 2020 8:09pm

As it happens, I'd have to be awful hungry to eat a hamburger, but peanut butter and pickle sandwich would be a treat from my childhood.

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Re: Your thoughts on frames and riding positions?

Post by ZeroEm » Nov 18 2020 9:41pm

Cost could have something to do with the lack of recumbent/bents. not that most here don't have a problem with spending a few bucks for a good frame or bike/trike. Most are what $100-500 and a bent is what three times that?
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Re: Your thoughts on frames and riding positions?

Post by Pentti M Reku » Nov 20 2020 8:04am

Cost is an issue, most recumbents cost as much as a full suspension good quality mtb, for something special you are looking at new DH bike equivalent prices.

One thing that makes recumbent riding position great for ebikes is that you don´t have the usual saddle problem. The less power you put down from your legs the more you usually have weight to carry on your saddle on an up-right bike.

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Re: Your thoughts on frames and riding positions?

Post by neptronix » Nov 20 2020 12:14pm

Price is a huge problem. I just plopped down $1900 on what's basically a next generation bikeE. The bikeE was mass manufactured and the entry price was something like $500. The only reason these bikes are so expensive is that there hasn't been another mass manufacturer like bikeE since the 2000's.
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500 MTB.
Monster MTB: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: Heavy duty Cannondale semi recumbent - under construction.
Blue Dream: Maxaraya FS semi recumbent and high efficiency mid-drive - under construction.

Balmorhea   1 MW

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Re: Your thoughts on frames and riding positions?

Post by Balmorhea » Nov 21 2020 1:27am

neptronix wrote:
Nov 20 2020 12:14pm
Price is a huge problem. I just plopped down $1900 on what's basically a next generation bikeE. The bikeE was mass manufactured and the entry price was something like $500.
From what I heard at the time, every single BikeE-- from beginning to end-- was sold at a loss, in anticipation of a rapidly growing market that never appeared.

Offer more of them at a loss, and you'll sell all of them at a loss, or not at all. There are only so many folks who have special needs or special notions that are served by recumbents.

One of the principals of BikeE went on to found Bigha, which made BikeE-type abominations aimed at a more lucrative market. Bigha bikes were laughably expensive, but I trust that they didn't all sell at a loss.
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Triketech   1 kW

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Re: Your thoughts on frames and riding positions?

Post by Triketech » Nov 21 2020 9:50am

As for comfort on longer rides it doesn't get any better than this.
Image

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Re: Your thoughts on frames and riding positions?

Post by dogman dan » Nov 23 2020 7:54am

I'm sure I could do a 6 hour day in that seat. My semi bent, more of a kitchen chair type position, 30 min max. It just kills my back.

Most comfortable trike I ever rode, the fully bent sun tadpole trikes with the lay down seats. The Fat tad was nice for the cushy tires. The one time I rode a really recumbent two wheeler, I found it quite tricky. Semi bent makes it easy on the stops, but hammers my back.

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Re: Your thoughts on frames and riding positions?

Post by neptronix » Nov 23 2020 1:42pm

Triketech wrote:
Nov 21 2020 9:50am
As for comfort on longer rides it doesn't get any better than this.
Image
Oh no doubt that is absolutely the most comfortable thing i can imagine. :)
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500 MTB.
Monster MTB: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: Heavy duty Cannondale semi recumbent - under construction.
Blue Dream: Maxaraya FS semi recumbent and high efficiency mid-drive - under construction.

donn   10 kW

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Re: Your thoughts on frames and riding positions?

Post by donn » Nov 23 2020 3:08pm

Well, I've wondered. I mean, lawn chair on wheels, I get that. Bed on wheels, sounds good - if you didn't have to look where you're going. I see there's a headrest. I don't know.

The seat for me is essentially a little hammock. Like my Ryan Vanguard, or the 1980 Avatar 2000.
Image

No adjustment really necessary, it sort of self adjusts to whatever your back height may be and where you're sitting in the seat, and it's far enough back that you are essentially recumbent, but not so far that you're craning your neck to look straight ahead. Head height is lower than a pickup truck, higher than sports car.

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Re: Your thoughts on frames and riding positions?

Post by BikeFiver » Nov 26 2020 9:57pm

The smile on my stoker's face says why I ride recumbent and tandem!
Image
But here's a few details:
Of course, there is no pain in the neck, back, seat or hands nor any numbness.
The electric benefits of riding include a constant cooling breeze, even on the climbs.
Throttled motorcycle starts are helpful on a recumbent, especially starts going uphill.
On a tandem, it allows the stoker and motor to power the added weight, until the captain can get clipped in.
There's no standing on a recumbent, but the mid-drive makes even the tallest hills no problem.
The BBSO2 eliminates the only downside for most to a recumbent, slower climbs.
Except for rough trail riding, I have retired my delta frames.

We have been riding this Rans Screamer bought used and converted with BBSO2 in 2015.
Here's the build viewtopic.php?f=28&t=76537

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markz   100 GW

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Re: Your thoughts on frames and riding positions?

Post by markz » Nov 26 2020 11:21pm

Triketech wrote:
Nov 21 2020 9:50am
As for comfort on longer rides it doesn't get any better than this.
Image
Have you seen this tire shredding trike video laying rubber strips?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKAMus3oSdw

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