New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

The gears meshing at higher rpm's will probably be the main source of the noise. If the main gear could be coated in rubber everywhere where it doesn't touch anything (teeth, bearing etc.) that might help. And if there is a surface of the main gear that has more room between it and the casing then gluing a thicker piece of rubber sheet/ring to it might help even more with dampening the high frequency vibration. Sticking some rubber on the outside of the casing and where it mounts against the frame is an easy way to try if the sound box effect of it can be reduced. Not too much as that might cause it to overheat.
 
Hi Wapous,
I have the straight cut teeth on my large gear, I was thinking whether we could make an outer gear ring in nylon and machine down the metal gear and drill and tap some holes so that we can screw on the nylon part. We have industrial 3D printers at work so I could print one. If you could design it for me then I can surely have a go at it !!! :bigthumb:
The beefier the better and it will also reduce the weight of the Main gear too.

JB
 
Wapous said:
Since we modified our bikes with the TSDZ2 engine two years ago my wife and I have ridden over 20,000 km.
We travel on roads and rarely do we go off-road. For us, the minimum power is sufficient. So our average range is 90 km with a 48volts / 14ah battery.
That is a lot of kms. I am curious about the type of bicycle you use? Road bike?
 
Wapous said:
All modifications to reduce noise discussed in this forum are for users who are using their TSDZ2 engine to its maximum. And it is quite correct.

I have the TSDZ2 myself, and at low power (100-250w), it is definitely audible (not particularly bothersome though). I have also briefly tested two different bafang motors, and both of those were waay quieter at similar power levels.

I've regreased my motor (with SHC100), which helped a little. I also tried the brass gear (when I was using it for more off-road), which was much noisier, so I went back to the nylon one (no issues so far with a few thousand km on low power, on paved roads). I think I just got a particularly noisy motor.
 
Of all the engine types the Bafung range are the quietest of all posibly even than the belt driven Brose.

However due to engine gear problems the Bafung M600 reverted to a metal on metal main gear and already there are after market plastic Peek gears for it to quieten it down. There are rumours already that future M600 engines from the factory will have the plastic gear reintroduced.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55K0_gAE02E
 
jbalat said:
I have the straight cut teeth on my large gear, I was thinking whether we could make an outer gear ring in nylon and machine down the metal gear and drill and tap some holes so that we can screw on the nylon part.

Is there any reason simply to not use PeeK plastic to make that whole metal gear in one rather than using the existing gear machined down with an outer ring of Peek with all the inherant problems of bonding or machine in a few side grub screws ?

https://gearsolutions.com/features/take-a-peek-at-polymer/
 
Peek/PEKK are super expensive as compare to Nylon and need much higher temperatures to print. Yes we do use it at work but only for special projects. I find it much more brittle than most plastics. I would prefer either PC-ABS or Nylon since they have a little bit of give in them.
As for printing the whole gear... yeh I am worried that the pressed in sprag clutch may slip over time even with grub screws unless we can grind some flats or external key way.
 
Expensive maybe the longevity ticket though. What would it cost to print such a gear, we could always try a few in various materials. I think also there are some really good chemical bonds between steel and plastic available relatively cheaply.
 
Wapous said:
jbalat said:
Hi Wapous,
I have the straight cut teeth on my large gear, I was thinking whether we could make an outer gear ring in nylon and machine down the metal gear and drill and tap some holes so that we can screw on the nylon part. We have industrial 3D printers at work so I could print one. If you could design it for me then I can surely have a go at it !!!
The beefier the better and it will also reduce the weight of the Main gear too.

I am not familiar with the Peek product. In the drawings shown here, the gear teeth are machined from Bakelite. The Bakelite product has been used for decades to manufacture gears.
Bakelite gears are quieter and have great strength. In addition, since Bakelite is quite abrasive it is recommended to use it with a steel pinion. Which does the trick here.
Regarding the precise dimensions you are talking about, I recommend that you bring the current gear to the CNC shop along with the drawings included.
This modification could reduce noise and replace the concept with a belt. It remains to be proven.
But one thing is certain, Bakelite on steel is less noisy than steel on steel.
Cool idea!!

Wapous, maybe you could share that both parts (part with teeth and the part of gear) and STEP files, so jbalat can first 3D print both to test before send to machining the metal gear. Even maybe someone can first 3D print in PLA just to have a feeling how it will work!!

Nice bicycle!!
 
Hi guys,

does anyone use VLCD7 display?
Could you please tell which Bluetooth pairing password should be used with them?
 
Does anyone know what that material is that covers the PCB on the controller to help seal it?
 
Wapous, not sure I understand
Are you saying you may have the number of teeth wrong and the shape of the teeth may be incorrect and not sized properly ?

You can download models from McMaster Carr
https://www.mcmaster.com/spur-gears/component~gear/plastic-gears-and-gear-racks-20-pressure-angle/

If your drawing is not for production then...
I will take my gear off and photo copy it so I can compare
I can bring the image into catia and retrace the exact shape to make the model to scale
My gut feel is that the teeth will be too small to print properly and handle any load but let me have a closer look first
I’m really sick of that whining noise.. something must be done!
 
Jbalat, I think your engines are the older ones with straight cut gears ? The later helical gears are much much quieter once they have worn in for a couple of hundred clicks and been regreased. Is the effort worth more than simply buying a later motor ? Certainly 4 of the 5 units we have are comparable with the latest Bosch CX noise wise. We do have 1 unit that is appreciably noisier from the gears ( its a 48 volt unit running at 700 Watts ) than the others, I need to pull it to pieces to investigate but it just keeps going.
 
I just bought a Bosch gen 4 bike for my wife. Sure it makes a small amount of noise but it a pleasing well engineered whirring noise. My TSDZ2 (helical and regreased) has always made an annoying type of grating noise that gets unpleasant at high power. Don’t get me wrong I love my TDSZ2 and capabilities, but don’t compare its noise envelop to the latest Bosch motors!
 
Well that told me. Yup the Bosch does have a more pleasant noise but I would put the overall motor noise about the same as the best of the TSDZ2's we have.

Then we have the Bosch CX rattle when not peddling, the TSDZ2 is infinately quieter. When you can hear the rattle 2 bikes away as soon as you all stop peddling, then you know its loud and really annoying. :D
 
Waynemarlow said:
The later helical gears are much much quieter once they have worn in for a couple of hundred clicks and been regreased. Is the effort worth more than simply buying a later motor ?
I have helical gears in all my EBike TSDZ2 motors and they clearly do an annoying audible noise that other good EBike motors do not do.
 
This place has some really good picture
https://www.emotoer.com/tsdz-main-gear/

I have also contacted the supplier to see if they can share anything but hope to pull mine apart on the weekend
JB
 
We have peek and ULTEM too but I think nylon is best since it will give some before it fractures since it’s not as brittle

On the plus side I found bearing CSK30PP is the same sprag clutch but also has an external key way which we can use to lock into the plastic gear !!! :bigthumb:
 
I have a spare helical main gear and spur at home. I can measure tonight if that helps?

Jbalat you are welcome to have them no charge if you want to try re noise reduction. I bought when in NZ thinking a had straight cut and then opened her up ... the deal is you get to replace my spag bearing including pressing in and out if it ever goes. Let me know



Wapous said:
jbalat said:
This place has some really good picture
https://www.emotoer.com/tsdz-main-gear/

I have also contacted the supplier to see if they can share anything but hope to pull mine apart on the weekend
JB
Yes these are fine pictures. Knowing the one-way bearing diameter (62mm exactly) I will try to do the job this way.
I will let you know before the weekend. This is interpolation method with Solidworks but sometime we have problems with lens distortion. To make sure, I will ask you to measure the major diameters for the main gear and the pinion.
 
jbalat said:
We have peek and ULTEM too but I think nylon is best since it will give some before it fractures since it’s not as brittle

On the plus side I found bearing CSK30PP is the same sprag clutch but also has an external key way which we can use to lock into the plastic gear !!! :bigthumb:
I've attached a pdf of the main gear in cross cut to have a look at, I can redo it in another format with some sort of measurements to guide, if you want to drop it straight into a CAD.
 

Attachments

  • Maingear.pdf
    252 KB · Views: 46
A while back I 3d printed a plastic main gear (helical) for the same reasons as you have mentioned in this thread, plus also trying to save weight.

The design was created in Fusion 360. Step file attached, I can’t vouch for it’s accuracy as I’m no engineer.

TSDZ2-Main-Gear.png

The print was for testing only and had no sprag clutch, I just removed the pedals and tested in walk mode. It worked fine with the back wheel off the ground, it disintegrated in seconds as soon as the rear wheel was placed on the ground, way too much torque for PLA to handle with only minor resistance.

I gave up at that point as I realised it would take an expensive printable material to deal with the amount of torque good old steel can handle.
 

Attachments

  • TSDZ2 Main Gear.stl.zip
    1.5 MB · Views: 29
devboy-greg said:
A while back I 3d printed a plastic main gear (helical) for the same reasons as you have mentioned in this thread, plus also trying to save weight.

The design was created in Fusion 360. Step file attached, I can’t vouch for it’s accuracy as I’m no engineer.

TSDZ2-Main-Gear.png

The print was for testing only and had no sprag clutch, I just removed the pedals and tested in walk mode. It worked fine with the back wheel off the ground, it disintegrated in seconds as soon as the rear wheel was placed on the ground, way too much torque for PLA to handle with only minor resistance.

I gave up at that point as I realised it would take an expensive printable material to deal with the amount of torque good old steel can handle.
Great value, thanks for sharing!!
 
anyone ridden what I'd call 'recent batch' of lightweight ebikes? ie sub 15kg or less than 33lbs in 'old money' :wink: with something like fazua or x35 ebikemotion or eg Specialized Turbo Vado SL......and how do they compare to the TSDZ2?
Thanks!
 
devboy-greg said:
I just removed the pedals and tested in walk mode. It worked fine with the back wheel off the ground, it disintegrated in seconds as soon as the rear wheel was placed on the ground, way too much torque for PLA to handle with only minor resistance.

Well done you are miles ahead of us !!
If the part fit in the motor then I'm betting your measurements were pretty good
Are you able to post a step file ?

Can you tell us how it initially failed, did a tooth break off ?
Did you print the PLA with 100% solid fill ?
 
jbalat said:
Are you able to post a step file ?

Can you tell us how it initially failed, did a tooth break off ?
Did you print the PLA with 100% solid fill ?

Sure no problem, step file attached. It was the teeth that failed even though they were 100% solid fill.

I was inspired to try the print by this chap on YouTube who was printing gears for his Atlas lathe in PLA, with good results, although the gears he printed have larger teeth and the gear ratios are less:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6Aq0d1070I

I was going to buy some nylon and print with that, but as the teeth are small along with the ratio and torque being high, there is the potential for slipping, therefore as other projects have taken priority I haven't tried it yet.
 

Attachments

  • TSDZ2 Main Gear.step.zip
    693 KB · Views: 33
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