2WD install/set up advice appreciated.

When you get the motor simulation completed, the URL in your browser can be copied and pasted to a post. All the parameters will be included, and anyone can click on the link and see the results.

I did tinker with the simulator. At 100% throttle, it looked possible. However at partial throttle it looked hopeless. That said...I would try to make it work. Sounds like the parts are largely installed. If it doesn't work, then you can look at your options.
 
BlueSeas said:
The issue is the Phaserunner is a torque controller, and the Grinfeon is speed based.
This means that each controller will operate the motor differently, as you point out...but the issue I was referring to on the starting point voltage, if the controllers have different starting response points, is that if you want them to both start providing "power" at the same throttle position, will require making sure that they both respond to the same starting voltage from a throttle signal.

How they will respond *after they start* is a whole other matter, as you point out.

Whether you would actually *want* them to both start at the same throttle voltage may be a whole other matter as well, that because of the PR's torque-throttle nature cant' really be tested on the bench, and would require experimentation in actual riding circumstances to determine where the best balance is.

Alternately, the throttle could be sent directly to the PR (assuming there is no PAS, and that either the PR can perform itself any functions the CA would've done for you, or that you don't need those functions for it), and then the CA could be used to process the same throttle signal using Current (or Power) Throttle mode so it is similar response curve to (as close as possible) the PR's response, and *only* send it's throttle output to the Grinfineon.

Then further tweak this as necessary in either the PR's settings or the CA's, to give the same response between the two differing *motors*.



Control for the motors is provided by a nominal 0-5V signal, with a hall throttle (most all), it's really more like a 1.2-4.5V range. So the throttle generates a signal and passes it to the CA3.
Yes...but not all controllers respond to the same voltage range. Some will start at 1.0v. Some start at 1.4v. Some start elsewhere. Some (like the PR, AFAICR) are adjustable within their settings program.


That's all I was trying to point out. :)
 
Hi Matteo, I'm running two different motors with different controllers, One Phaserunner and the other the simple Grinfineon 40 amp. It works well, but I'm using the old way of hooking them up, which Grin's older stand-alone shunt that the power passed through on the way to the controllers and cycle analyst. I expect that this works better for different controllers as there is no guesswork about averaging R shunt values. https://ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle-parts/ca-accessories/shunt-dualc.html The Grinfineon is a simple controller with no programing so it is always taking as much power as the cycle analyst will let it have, depending om the power setting I'm running. The Phaserunner is managing my front motor and is only allowed to draw a maximum of 700 W because I don't want to cook the smaller Bafang geared hub motor I'm running up front.

I expect that a big part of your problem is that the newer Y splitter is designed assuming that the user is running identical controllers. I have hooked up a customers dual motor system with the Y slitter system and it worked well, but they were identical controllers.
 
tigcross said:
Hi Matteo, I'm running two different motors with different controllers, One Phaserunner and the other the simple Grinfineon 40 amp. It works well, but I'm using the old way of hooking them up, which Grin's older stand-alone shunt that the power passed through on the way to the controllers and cycle analyst. I expect that this works better for different controllers as there is no guesswork about averaging R shunt values. https://ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle-parts/ca-accessories/shunt-dualc.html The Grinfineon is a simple controller with no programing so it is always taking as much power as the cycle analyst will let it have, depending om the power setting I'm running. The Phaserunner is managing my front motor and is only allowed to draw a maximum of 700 W because I don't want to cook the smaller Bafang geared hub motor I'm running up front.

I expect that a big part of your problem is that the newer Y splitter is designed assuming that the user is running identical controllers. I have hooked up a customers dual motor system with the Y slitter system and it worked well, but they were identical controllers.

Hey Tig, thanks for your time, hmm might be an avenue for me then, I think i jumped the gun a little when i bought the Gmac, (i also thought it freewheeled..) i was hoping to set up a dual motor system wherein i only really use the second motor for up hills mostly. and it freewheeled otherwise. But, it seems I should have looked to the motor simulator first to understand whats best..im just not sure im understanding the motor simulator as of yet. if you know anyone willing to screenshare im happy to compensate someone for a bit of explanation in that regard. I have an Ezee motor 1500 also that im thinking might be better.

If im understanding correctly..it seems that the Gmac would be more efficient battery usage wise than the crystalyte, but wouldn't help me as much up the steep grades where i want help and hopefully get more than 10km/h while doing 8-10% climbs..

so ya...think i need to figure out most efficient course of action first i got a little excited and just got myself another motor...but ahh the simple dream was so nice and still is!
 
I hear you on the jumping the gun thing, I did did the same with the Gmac. One more thing to add to the mix, the bigger the diameter of the stator in motor, and the smaller the rim it is laced into, the greater the torque. I'm running a Golden Magic Pie 2 with has a 273 mm diameter stator. It is in a 20 inch rim. With an external Grinfieon 40 amp controller and full power at 72 volts, it produces far more torque than the Gmac or anything else that Grin sells. However, I do agree with Spinning Magnets, with your weight and hills, you may need to abandon hub motors and go with a mid drive.
 
amberwolf said:
Whether you would actually *want* them to both start at the same throttle voltage may be a whole other matter as well, that because of the PR's torque-throttle nature cant' really be tested on the bench, and would require experimentation in actual riding circumstances to determine where the best balance is.

Alternately, the throttle could be sent directly to the PR (assuming there is no PAS, and that either the PR can perform itself any functions the CA would've done for you, or that you don't need those functions for it), and then the CA could be used to process the same throttle signal using Current (or Power) Throttle mode so it is similar response curve to (as close as possible) the PR's response, and *only* send it's throttle output to the Grinfineon.

That's all I was trying to point out. :)

I'm happy there are some guys with real experience with dual motor setups jumping in to help here!

My thought with the simultaneous start up is the inefficiency of dragging an unpowered hub motor along for the ride. Say at a low speed 10mph speed, only one motor was active, that would seem to be lots of drag? The QS205 on my recent build basically renders the bike useless for pedaling, except as a backup "get home" strategy. The 9C motor on my first build can be pedaled, but it's still not really practical without some minimal PAS assistance.

I think your idea to power the Phaserunner directly by the output of the actual throttle, and use the CA3 for only the Grinfeon has lots of merit. Assuming I understood that right. That provides much more customization possibilities. You would lose the capacity monitoring piece of the CA3, but for 3.7-3.8V per cell systems, that's not insurmountable. Pack voltage will predict SOC once you adjust to looking at that.

You could make the new motor and Phaserunner the primary source for motivation. Use the CA3 selectable 3 options to limit the original motor's participation to say 100W (or whatever) normally to simulate freewheeling for setting 1, but use a button to select mode 2 and 3 to increase the output going to the secondary motor for going up hills. This would make the tuning much easier, it only needs to work in high demand situations.

Hmmmm...lots to think about.
 
BlueSeas said:
My thought with the simultaneous start up is the inefficiency of dragging an unpowered hub motor along for the ride. Say at a low speed 10mph speed, only one motor was active, that would seem to be lots of drag? The QS205 on my recent build basically renders the bike useless for pedaling, except as a backup "get home" strategy. The 9C motor on my first build can be pedaled, but it's still not really practical without some minimal PAS assistance..
In my stuff i just do full throttle or full pas-throttle on startup so it doens't actually matter what the lowest throttle threshohld is on the controllers. Then when i'm at speed it limits throttle so i only get enough power to maintain 20mph (assuming im pedalling fast enough for the Ca to keep me at that speed). The system

But on Craybiek2, i used separate throttles for eahc, not going thru the CA. I could startup with just one motor, and it didnt' really make any noticeable drag to not power the other motor (in the cases where i broke a wheel and used a regual ar one in it's palce for a while, I didn't notice any real difference between one motor powered and one not, and one motor powered and one regualr wheel...though i don't know if i ever noted down CA readings for this, i probably did, and if so those are in the CB2 thread somewhere. ). That was witha 9c in front and a hsr3548 in the bakc.

I don't remeber if the grin simulator also simulates motor drag but you could try it out maybe the trip simulator does, and you could setup a two motor system but only put throttel into one of them and see how it works out? never tried it. :oops:



You would lose the capacity monitoring piece of the CA3, .

The only thing you lose is the ability ato the CA to control the throttle of the PR. All the monitoring abilty of the ca is still there, because you would monitor battery current with an external shunt that feeds both controllers.

aFIAK you can t parallel the shunts on two contorllers to monitor both at once with one CA, or else the controllres themselves can't tell houw much power they are uisng. Maybe you could use diodes from each one to the CA so it dcould still see the voltage but the other ocntroller can't, but then there's a diode loss that i don't remmeber if you can adjust out of the CA shunt settings. don't think you can. The hsunt voltage is small. Maybe grin has dealt with this already somehow?

Anyway i use just one standalone grin shunt out of the batery, then both controllers connect to the otuput of that. then the throttle signal and ground are paralleled on both controllers to the ca's throttle output.

But if i had different controllers and one controller that had adjustable internal throttle settings i'd use that one direclty from the throttle, and the other would be processed by the ca first, if I did not need to use PAS (because the PAS has to be processed by the CA first (unless that adjustable controller could also take in PAS and use it directly, but I don't know of any like that, though it doesn't mean there arent' any). Or if I had a separate PAS-to-throttle converter that could just be paralleled with the real throttle signal to the adjsutable controller


I forget what the OP has but if they have a freewheeling motor that could be the unpowered one in any cases hwere there can only be one for whatever reason.


there'sa lot fo ways to setup 2wd, and which one is "better" depends on the specific stuff being used, and the speciric situation it's being used in, and what the rider needs it to do in each sitaution.


For mine the main reaosn i needed 2Wd was reliablity. I needed backup for the times something would go wrong with one motor or the other.

The next reaosn was power. I couldnt'a fford the big stuff, so by necessity i went with dual smaller ones (as wella s reliablity, but if i could've afforded two double-size systems i owuld've done it that way).

So CB2 had about 4kw on tap, half on each end. Needed tthe power for quick acceleartion at stoplights and such even when heavily loaded with cargo or pulling trailer full of cargo or dog, cuz drivers hate being behind anything that isnt' another car and probalby even that. So since most of the time i end up being the first or nearly first stuck at the light, with a line of cars behind me already impatient to go cuz its' red, then when it's green I have to be able to zip out ahead of them all so they don't get pissed and try to run me over. With the power i had i could cross intersection in <4 seconds and be at 20mph full speed by the time i got across, or sooner, so except for the really leadfooted drivers I wouldnt' ahve problems and could be across and out of the way in the bike lane or at least far to the right so they could then pass me without bieng pissed off as much by my existence.

Something else but i dozed off again so can't remmvber what it was.


In SBC the trike the mtoros are both on the back on either side. Never had a matched pair, the closest i had was a 4503 on one side and 4504 on the other, MXUS 3k's. Had matched grinfineon 30as for a while but one was miswired at factory on ebrake connector so that stuff enver worked right and eventually it blew up the 5v regulator because of it, and that's still in a box waiting to be sent back for fix since maybe this time last year, just enver have time and energy to get it done.

Anyway, because the mtoors werent matched then the torque curves were different so you could kinda feel the push moving from one side to the other as acceleration happened up to full speed 20mph, and that was too complex to build something that would compensate for it like a opamp something or other that would fit between ca throttle output and one of the controllers to change the throttle voltage to make that mtoor match the other one.

Mostly the SBc has alwyas had mismatched ocntrollers, and alwyas mismtached mtoros, , except for those few weeks (monmths? can't remmember) that boht grinfineons were mostly working. It's very different motors now, since one of the 450x's failed again and i stuck a stromer ultramotor in it's place (wish I had another just like it for the left side--it's got a lot of power for such a little thing and its' very well made unlike the MXUS crap). The controllers are also mismatched, some random generic 30-40a on the right and the still working grinfienon 30a on the left. Still feel the torque difference but it doesn't cause a problme, it's not enough for torque steeer to be a problem for instance even at full power.

Was gonna finally ahve matched controllers taht could adjust their throttle curves to go with the mismatched 450x's by building a couple Lebowksis (see my thread about it in my signature) but life hit and i didn't finish teh first or start the second, then months later the first 450x died. So i don't have any experience with matched torque / power setups. Maybe someday. :)
 
I'm happy there are some guys with real experience with dual motor setups jumping in to help here!

My thought with the simultaneous start up is the inefficiency of dragging an unpowered hub motor along for the ride. Say at a low speed 10mph speed, only one motor was active, that would seem to be lots of drag? The QS205 on my recent build basically renders the bike useless for pedaling, except as a backup "get home" strategy. The 9C motor on my first build can be pedaled, but it's still not really practical without some minimal PAS assistance.

I think your idea to power the Phaserunner directly by the output of the actual throttle, and use the CA3 for only the Grinfeon has lots of merit. Assuming I understood that right. That provides much more customization possibilities. You would lose the capacity monitoring piece of the CA3, but for 3.7-3.8V per cell systems, that's not insurmountable. Pack voltage will predict SOC once you adjust to looking at that.

You could make the new motor and Phaserunner the primary source for motivation. Use the CA3 selectable 3 options to limit the original motor's participation to say 100W (or whatever) normally to simulate freewheeling for setting 1, but use a button to select mode 2 and 3 to increase the output going to the secondary motor for going up hills. This would make the tuning much easier, it only needs to work in high demand situations.

Hmmmm...lots to think about.
[/quote]

Ya exactly what i realized yesterday! ive been getting hung up on the fact that i dont think i fully understand the motor simulator and havn't felt capapble of understanding what's the most efficient option. but yesterday riding 60km fixing bikes all day. and doing some 8-10% grades again putting out avg 200HWh all day and standing on the pedals and pushing harder than i wished i had to up those hills...i realized..that that whole day i only used 1 of my 2 sometimes 3 52V 16ah batteries that i carry with me. and charged at each bike repair job just the one battery while the other sat unused in my saddle bag ALL DAY! so whatever i do is more efficient than dragging that battery around all day only using it on days when i can't plug in at some folks' house.

But, i have an ezee motor in a 20" wheel presently. wondering if i should use that cause if ever something fails with it it atleast freewheels...but then it may complicated things more as the ezee has to use its own ezee controller no? id have to have seperate CA and throttle it when i want it i believe.

So, Im back to thinking the GMac and crystalyte is good. i just need to look at the long helpful response above at how to balance it (just bought another PR) and then ya exactly have 1 setting for just off setting the drag of the GMAc when unneeded to conserve energy, and then couple settings for higher output
 
I'm amazed you ride 60km in sub 0C weather....I had a motorcycle ride today where one guy didn't show because it was 15C. And he was supposed to lead, so we improvised.... But at about 10C, I don't ride either. Been living in FL too long.

Efficiency isn't a prime consideration until you run out of battery capacity. Doesn't sound like you are, so don't worry too much.

I think with 2 PR's, you're going to be in good shape. That will go a long way to making the motors behave similar with the the same throttle input. Watch that GRIN video again. There are lots of details that takes a couple viewings to sink in. I'm pretty good at chasing electrons, but the insights Justin has are invaluable.

Good luck! Will be following.
 
Thanks! It was plus 6 Celsius on that day, only work plus 4/5 days and up. Yes I’m excited to execute!!!
 
The issue is the Phaserunner is a torque controller, and the Grinfeon is speed based. Control for the motors is provided by a nominal 0-5V signal, with a hall throttle (most all), it's really more like a 1.2-4.5V range. So the throttle generates a signal and passes it to the CA3. Inside the CA3, there are many parameters where this signal can be modified to make the bike operate more smoothly, enforce limitations (speed, battery current, motor temp) and finally to integrate PAS. For discussion, you use the bike throttle to command 10%. So that turns out to be a 1.9V signal. To the Grinfeon, this equates to 10% of max rotation speed. To the PHaserunner, this means 10% of max torque. On the stand, one motor spins at 10%, the other spins at 100%, since 10% of max torque is sufficient to reach max RPM without a load.

The first tuning step is to make both motors start at the same signal level. For now, assuming you were happy with the original programming I would not change the programming of the CA3, except maybe to turn off proportional Ebrake regen if it's ON. And finally, I probably would set the CA3 throttle to PassThru for now. This may likely get set back to current later.

Okay, finally going to make sure I understand! So Deep Blue, thnx! Why does the regen turn off?

Then find this CA3 display:

505B219E-55CC-4EA3-AA85-20E9BD7D0B83.jpeg

It shows the throttle input and output voltages from the CA3. Note the throttle output voltage where the Grinfeon controller starts to spin the wheel. Note the voltage where the Grinfeon motor reaches maximum speed.


Then using the PC program it's time to program iteration 1 of the Phaserunner configuration to match the Grinfeon. Make sure you've already learned the motor and set the basic parameters for your battery. Then find this screen:

Just want to confirm. “Learned motor?” Ca3 is already set for the batteries if that’s what you mean. Yes I think I’ll keep grinfeon on bike and have CA config set for this even when other PR arrives for if ever a PR goes down or something.

06C75237-6FC8-4101-9B2B-81C5C88B8220.jpeg

Set the brake active range to be lower than the minimum output voltage of the CA3 with the throttle completely off.

What does this do? Just tells CA that I want that lower voltage achieved when I hit ebrake?

Set the throttle active range to the voltages noted for the Grinfeon.

Just to confirm, I noted this range. While the Gmac was connected or not make a difference?


Most important, while on the stand, make sure the throttle position where the wheels begins to spin is matched exactly, or as close as you can get. Make sure at full throttle both wheels look like they are spinning at their top speed. This full speed is subjective. The wheels won't spin at the same speed. That's OK, but they ought to spin smoothly.

If the Phaserunner is now primary, check the speed readout on the CA3. It's possible that this may need recalibration, the number of magnets pulsing the hall sensor per full rotation is likely different for the GMAC (per Grin it's 6) than the Crystalite. This setting is in the CA3 configuration.

Don’t understand this one...so the motors each of various “speedo” pole for CA, and magnetic pole pairs for phaserunner. Grin says 23, I don’t understand which setting exactly your referring to...and if I would be setting this to match.. Speedo #? And of one motor or the other or both? Thnx!

The remainder of the tuning will be based on test rides, and a subjective analysis of how well the motors match up in operation. Here are a few things you can "tune"

1) The upper end of the Phaserunner throttle active range. It could be increased to slow the ramp up of the Phaserunner, or lowered to increase the ramp up. Don't change the low end so both motors start at the same point.

To confirm, slow ramp up is slow acceleration I assume. You can just not answer if it’s a yes ;) wanna appreciate your time!

2) Current limit in the Phaserunner battery configuration. And all of the motor limits.

Current from battery, what would that change? Other motor limits I don’t know of what I’d want to do in the PR, Oh except, I’ll set Gmac so that it’s always atleast electronically freewheeling (I’ll watch Grin video again)...but i suppose if ever I have an electrical issue the PR won’t be there to keep it doing that anyway.


3) Finally after the above are as good as possible, you can go tinker with CA3 settings. Try current throttle mode. Try slowing/speeding the ramp up and ramp down parameters.

Hope this helps! Good luck and let us know.
[/quote]

Thanks! So much for all your help!

I never use my throttle, and we haven’t spoken on PAS, still in the dark there.
Sorry took my a spell to respond I was intimidated by all the info!
 
amberwolf said:
BlueSeas said:
The issue is the Phaserunner is a torque controller, and the Grinfeon is speed based.
This means that each controller will operate the motor differently, as you point out...but the issue I was referring to on the starting point voltage, if the controllers have different starting response points, is that if you want them to both start providing "power" at the same throttle position, will require making sure that they both respond to the same starting voltage from a throttle signal.

How they will respond *after they start* is a whole other matter, as you point out.

Whether you would actually *want* them to both start at the same throttle voltage may be a whole other matter as well, that because of the PR's torque-throttle nature cant' really be tested on the bench, and would require experimentation in actual riding circumstances to determine where the best balance is.

Alternately, the throttle could be sent directly to the PR (assuming there is no PAS, and that either the PR can perform itself any functions the CA would've done for you, or that you don't need those functions for it), and then the CA could be used to process the same throttle signal using Current (or Power) Throttle mode so it is similar response curve to (as close as possible) the PR's response, and *only* send it's throttle output to the


Ya I need to use this PAS, I never use my throttle .





Then further tweak this as necessary in either the PR's settings or the CA's, to give the same response between the two differing *motors*.



Control for the motors is provided by a nominal 0-5V signal, with a hall throttle (most all), it's really more like a 1.2-4.5V range. So the throttle generates a signal and passes it to the CA3.
Yes...but not all controllers respond to the same voltage range. Some will start at 1.0v. Some start at 1.4v. Some start elsewhere. Some (like the PR, AFAICR) are adjustable within their settings program.


That's all I was trying to point out. :)
 
tigcross said:
Hi Matteo, I'm running two different motors with different controllers, One Phaserunner and the other the simple Grinfineon 40 amp. It works well, but I'm using the old way of hooking them up, which Grin's older stand-alone shunt that the power passed through on the way to the controllers and cycle analyst. I expect that this works better for different controllers as there is no guesswork about averaging R shunt values.

Folk at Grin said I had to add rshunt of controllers and divide by 4, Justin in his video I thought I heard him say add and divide by 2, and I’ve listened a few times now.


https://ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle-parts/ca-accessories/shunt-dualc.html The Grinfineon is a simple controller with no programing so it is always taking as much power as the cycle analyst will let it have, depending om the power setting I'm running. The Phaserunner is managing my front motor and is only allowed to draw a maximum of 700 W because I don't want to cook the smaller Bafang geared hub motor I'm running up front.

How do you run your motors? I don’t understand why you’d have to limit your one motor, wouldn’t you want to access all its power sometimes? Couldn’t the motor that’s weaker and more prone to over heating have its limit. And you only bring it there when under load for brief moments?

I expect that a big part of your problem is that the newer Y splitter is designed assuming that the user is running identical controllers. I have hooked up a customers dual motor system with the Y slitter system and it worked well, but they were identical controllers.

Ya going to get new PR soon, but I’ll practice making grinfeon and PR work.
 
BlueSeas said:
When you get the motor simulation completed, the URL in your browser can be copied and pasted to a post. All the parameters will be included, and anyone can click on the link and see the results.

I did tinker with the simulator. At 100% throttle, it looked possible. However at partial throttle it looked hopeless. That said...I would try to make it work. Sounds like the parts are largely installed. If it doesn't work, then you can look at your options.

Thanks I didn’t think of that!!

Ya I think I understand the simulator. But I don’t understand the throttle setting..I understand wattage output on the graph. But than the graph changes so much when one changes the throttle setting. I thought the graph worked by showing what happens when the throttle moves from 0-100%-0
So I don’t get why it changes so much affecting the throttle toggle, I’ll have to go read that page again.
 
tigcross said:
I hear you on the jumping the gun thing, I did did the same with the Gmac. One more thing to add to the mix, the bigger the diameter of the stator in motor, and the smaller the rim it is laced into, the greater the torque. I'm running a Golden Magic Pie 2 with has a 273 mm diameter stator. It is in a 20 inch rim. With an external Grinfieon 40 amp controller and full power at 72 volts, it produces far more torque than the Gmac or anything else that Grin sells. However, I do agree with Spinning Magnets, with your weight and hills, you may need to abandon hub motors and go with a mid drive.

Abandone all my hub motors ! Tear....well, I have them now, will try to make the best of them, I don’t mind the workout I normally do 200 hwH and 300-400 on hills. But just need a bit more help is all. But then with middrive id be slower on flats? So perhaps a mid drive and 700c hub motor set up running together is my best bet someday down the road
 
I'm happy there are some guys with real experience with dual motor setups jumping in to help here!

My thought with the simultaneous start up is the inefficiency of dragging an unpowered hub motor along for the ride. Say at a low speed 10mph speed, only one motor was active, that would seem to be lots of drag? The QS205 on my recent build basically renders the bike useless for pedaling, except as a backup "get home" strategy. The 9C motor on my first build can be pedaled, but it's still not really practical without some minimal PAS assistance.

I think your idea to power the Phaserunner directly by the output of the actual throttle, and use the CA3 for only the Grinfeon has lots of merit. Assuming I understood that right. That provides much more customization possibilities. You would lose the capacity monitoring piece of the CA3, but for 3.7-3.8V per cell systems, that's not insurmountable. Pack voltage will predict SOC once you adjust to looking at that.

What would all the customization possibilities be? Could both motors still run with PAS? No right? How could one read pack voltage without CA? What’s SOC?

You could make the new motor and Phaserunner the primary source for motivation. Use the CA3 selectable 3 options to limit the original motor's participation to say 100W (or whatever) normally to simulate freewheeling for setting 1, but use a button to select mode 2 and 3 to increase the output going to the secondary motor for going up hills. This would make the tuning much easier, it only needs to work in high demand situations.

Im thinking, I’d have one CA configuration for grinfeon use with a PR and keep it on the bike once both PR’s are there. In case of some error etc.

But as far as configuration for power. If it all was PAS set up. I’d imagine that would be the quickest way no?

Hmmmm...lots to think about.
[/quote]
 
Matteo's Mobile Bicycle Repair said:
The issue is the Phaserunner is a torque controller, and the Grinfeon is speed based. Control for the motors is provided by a nominal 0-5V signal, with a hall throttle (most all), it's really more like a 1.2-4.5V range. So the throttle generates a signal and passes it to the CA3. Inside the CA3, there are many parameters where this signal can be modified to make the bike operate more smoothly, enforce limitations (speed, battery current, motor temp) and finally to integrate PAS. For discussion, you use the bike throttle to command 10%. So that turns out to be a 1.9V signal. To the Grinfeon, this equates to 10% of max rotation speed. To the PHaserunner, this means 10% of max torque. On the stand, one motor spins at 10%, the other spins at 100%, since 10% of max torque is sufficient to reach max RPM without a load.

The first tuning step is to make both motors start at the same signal level. For now, assuming you were happy with the original programming I would not change the programming of the CA3, except maybe to turn off proportional Ebrake regen if it's ON. And finally, I probably would set the CA3 throttle to PassThru for now. This may likely get set back to current later.

Okay, finally going to make sure I understand! So Deep Blue, thnx! Why does the regen turn off?

The steps above this comment are for programming for the CA3. I'm suggesting in the beginning, you disable regen. It can be turned back on once the the motors work right in forward propulsion. Do you use regen with the original one motor configuration? Do you want to use regen? Enabling this is best handled in a separate response

Then find this CA3 display:

505B219E-55CC-4EA3-AA85-20E9BD7D0B83.jpeg

It shows the throttle input and output voltages from the CA3. Note the throttle output voltage where the Grinfeon controller starts to spin the wheel. Note the voltage where the Grinfeon motor reaches maximum speed.


Then using the PC program it's time to program iteration 1 of the Phaserunner configuration to match the Grinfeon. Make sure you've already learned the motor and set the basic parameters for your battery. Then find this screen:

Just want to confirm. “Learned motor?” Ca3 is already set for the batteries if that’s what you mean. Yes I think I’ll keep grinfeon on bike and have CA config set for this even when other PR arrives for if ever a PR goes down or something.

The CA3 and each Phaserunner motor controller has its own configuration steps. The Grinfeon is pretty much hard coded, I'm not sure there is any programming possible. The CA3 and Phaserunner both have battery parameters to program. They all get setup to match your battery packs. The "learned motor" comment is the same as auto tune and one of the initial steps in the manual for programming each PR to match the Motor it's connected to. See section 4.1, 4.2, 4.3 in the PR manual. The motor tuning parameters of each PR is unique to motor connected to that controller.


06C75237-6FC8-4101-9B2B-81C5C88B8220.jpeg

Set the brake active range to be lower than the minimum output voltage of the CA3 with the throttle completely off.

What does this do? Just tells CA that I want that lower voltage achieved when I hit ebrake?

This programming is for the PR. As a step in the setup, the idea is to disable regen. For now. The CA3 will stop the throttle output to both controllers on application of either brake lever, but no regen.



Set the throttle active range to the voltages noted for the Grinfeon.

Just to confirm, I noted this range. While the Gmac was connected or not make a difference?

It shouldn't matter. However, it might not align exactly to what the controller sees. For example, in one of my configurations, the CA display indicates it's sending 1V at rest, but my controller reports 1.2V instead. With the PR, you won't be able to see a direct reading of the throttle voltages. But you will be able to program the PR to "start" at a specific voltage, and as you ramp up the throttle observe any difference between what the CA3 reports and how the PR responds.


Most important, while on the stand, make sure the throttle position where the wheels begins to spin is matched exactly, or as close as you can get. Make sure at full throttle both wheels look like they are spinning at their top speed. This full speed is subjective. The wheels won't spin at the same speed. That's OK, but they ought to spin smoothly.

If the Phaserunner is now primary, check the speed readout on the CA3. It's possible that this may need recalibration, the number of magnets pulsing the hall sensor per full rotation is likely different for the GMAC (per Grin it's 6) than the Crystalite. This setting is in the CA3 configuration.

Don’t understand this one...so the motors each of various “speedo” pole for CA, and magnetic pole pairs for phaserunner. Grin says 23, I don’t understand which setting exactly your referring to...and if I would be setting this to match.. Speedo #? And of one motor or the other or both? Thnx!


In the dual motor configuration, there are some signals not shared, and only apply to the controller plugged into the primary slot on the Y connector. This includes the speed sensing wire and motor temperature sensing wire. The speed sensing has to know how many magnets pass the hall sensor for a full revolution of the wheel. The GMAC and Crystalite have different magnet counts. These specs, along with other motor data you will need are on Grins website, on the motor product page, in one of the pull downs.

If the Crystalite has a temp sensor, you can make it primary and the CA3 speed sensing would remain unchanged. However, if it doesn't have a temp sensor, the GMAC does, so it needs to in the primary slot and have the speedo calibrated to that motor.


The remainder of the tuning will be based on test rides, and a subjective analysis of how well the motors match up in operation. Here are a few things you can "tune"

1) The upper end of the Phaserunner throttle active range. It could be increased to slow the ramp up of the Phaserunner, or lowered to increase the ramp up. Don't change the low end so both motors start at the same point.

To confirm, slow ramp up is slow acceleration I assume. You can just not answer if it’s a yes ;) wanna appreciate your time!

Yes :eek:

2) Current limit in the Phaserunner battery configuration. And all of the motor limits.

Current from battery, what would that change? Other motor limits I don’t know of what I’d want to do in the PR, Oh except, I’ll set Gmac so that it’s always atleast electronically freewheeling (I’ll watch Grin video again)...but i suppose if ever I have an electrical issue the PR won’t be there to keep it doing that anyway.

Most all of this procedure was targeted at trying to match unmatched controllers. The steps probably don't change much, but far less critical. You can start by matching the throttle response curves in both PR. For example, using a range from 1.5 to 4V, will make a 2V throttle signal (from the throttle or PAS) tell the controller to give you the same percentage of available torque. Calculated as .5V over minimum divided by the 2.5V maximum range. The full calculation .5/(4-1.5) = 20%. Each additional .5V of throttle adds another 20% of torque. So 2V = 20%, 2.5V = 40%, and so on until the max 4V signal = 100%.

Take a look at this from the motor simulator:

https://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?bopen=true&batt=B4816_GA&cont=PR_H&cont_b=PR_H&batt_b=B4816_GA&motor_b=GMAC10T&mass=400&mass_b=170&throt=100&throt_b=100&autothrot_b=true&autothrot=true&add=true&blue=Lbs&grade=4&hp=150

Don't know if I picked the right Crystalite motor, but that scenario stays pretty balanced up to 80% of throttle. But by 100% throttle, the Crystalite is using 40A to the GMAC's 20A. So I "customized" the Crystalite controller to approximate a Phaserunner set to limit battery current to 25A. See that here:

https://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?bopen=true&batt=B4816_GA&cont=cust_25_70_0.03_T&cont_b=PR_H&batt_b=B4816_GA&motor_b=GMAC10T&mass=400&mass_b=170&throt=100&throt_b=100&autothrot_b=true&autothrot=true&add=true&blue=Lbs&grade=4&hp=150

Especially since you are running dual motors, and the battery is shared, you will likely want to set current limits to preserve your batteries. So say you are limited to 40A, set the CA3 to a maximum of 40A, set both Phaserunners to 20A. But tuning is possible by setting one Phaserunner to 25A and one to 15A. Report your exact Crystalite motor model and winding along with your battery pack specifications and I can take a crack at updating the model more specifically.

I believe I remember from the video, Justin generally suggested both motors operating simultaneously was more efficient. Besides, electrically, if you freewheel one motor by raising the PR configured voltage level for it to start say at 50% throttle, would eliminate some of the benefits of matched controllers. The only way to do that that I can think of is surgery to the wiring harness, inserting 2 SPST switches which disconnect/connect the CA3 output voltage to the each Phaserunner. Switch one off and you have freewheel, switch it back on and you have identical throttle signals to both controllers.

Now PAS. If it worked before, it will work now. If the old battery current limit was 40A. And the new combined limit is 40A, it should work very similar to before. If the new combined current limit is higher, it will offer more assistance. If you have that set such that you can select different assistance levels, you'd probably just select a lower assistance level.




3) Finally after the above are as good as possible, you can go tinker with CA3 settings. Try current throttle mode. Try slowing/speeding the ramp up and ramp down parameters.

Hope this helps! Good luck and let us know.

Thanks! So much for all your help!

I never use my throttle, and we haven’t spoken on PAS, still in the dark there.
Sorry took my a spell to respond I was intimidated by all the info!

[/quote]
 
Matteo's Mobile Bicycle Repair said:
Ya going to get new PR soon, but I’ll practice making grinfeon and PR work.

Understand this is much more difficult, and beyond learning what's out there to configure on the CA3 and PR, the settings themselves won't help much.
 
Matteo's Mobile Bicycle Repair said:
tigcross said:
I hear you on the jumping the gun thing, I did did the same with the Gmac. One more thing to add to the mix, the bigger the diameter of the stator in motor, and the smaller the rim it is laced into, the greater the torque. I'm running a Golden Magic Pie 2 with has a 273 mm diameter stator. It is in a 20 inch rim. With an external Grinfieon 40 amp controller and full power at 72 volts, it produces far more torque than the Gmac or anything else that Grin sells. However, I do agree with Spinning Magnets, with your weight and hills, you may need to abandon hub motors and go with a mid drive.

Abandone all my hub motors ! Tear....well, I have them now, will try to make the best of them, I don’t mind the workout I normally do 200 hwH and 300-400 on hills. But just need a bit more help is all. But then with middrive id be slower on flats? So perhaps a mid drive and 700c hub motor set up running together is my best bet someday down the road

Towing that trailer would eat chains and those little gears in a mid drive for lunch. I think he'd spend more time repairing his bike "truck" than working on client bikes.

Toronto has some hills, but not like out west. Or like ski country in Quebec. I think the 2 hub motors will work well there, but if it doesn't, the best investment is a van. Or a SUV towing a trailer.
 
Matteo's Mobile Bicycle Repair said:
BlueSeas said:
When you get the motor simulation completed, the URL in your browser can be copied and pasted to a post. All the parameters will be included, and anyone can click on the link and see the results.

I did tinker with the simulator. At 100% throttle, it looked possible. However at partial throttle it looked hopeless. That said...I would try to make it work. Sounds like the parts are largely installed. If it doesn't work, then you can look at your options.

Thanks I didn’t think of that!!

Ya I think I understand the simulator. But I don’t understand the throttle setting..I understand wattage output on the graph. But than the graph changes so much when one changes the throttle setting. I thought the graph worked by showing what happens when the throttle moves from 0-100%-0
So I don’t get why it changes so much affecting the throttle toggle, I’ll have to go read that page again.

Take a look at this example:

https://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?bopen=true&batt=B4816_GA&cont=cust_25_70_0.03_T&cont_b=PR_H&batt_b=B4816_GA&motor_b=GMAC10T&mass=400&mass_b=170&throt=100&throt_b=100&autothrot_b=true&autothrot=true&add=true&blue=Lbs&grade=4&hp=150

D2D51BF6-1BCC-4E36-8C66-D43B17AA8750.jpeg

If you click on the provided link it goes to the simulator preconfigured to something close to your configuration.

Things to note:

1) At 100% throttle 400 kg bike rider and trailer on a 4% grade:

a) the GMAC overheats in 25 minutes

b) battery amps is pretty balanced at 25/26.6. Easier to look at tables than the actual graphs

c) note range assumes 2 battery packs. So program the battery to 1/2 your pack.

d) tap/click on the graph to select a lower desired speed. The throttles will automatically reduce. Set to 21 kilometers per hour, about 50% throttle, no more overheating and a lower battery load. But not much more range. Note the Auto Throttle box (highlighted) is checked, that's what make this tap feature adjust the throttle setting to the speed selected.
 
Matteo's Mobile Bicycle Repair said:
I'm happy there are some guys with real experience with dual motor setups jumping in to help here!

My thought with the simultaneous start up is the inefficiency of dragging an unpowered hub motor along for the ride. Say at a low speed 10mph speed, only one motor was active, that would seem to be lots of drag? The QS205 on my recent build basically renders the bike useless for pedaling, except as a backup "get home" strategy. The 9C motor on my first build can be pedaled, but it's still not really practical without some minimal PAS assistance.

I think your idea to power the Phaserunner directly by the output of the actual throttle, and use the CA3 for only the Grinfeon has lots of merit. Assuming I understood that right. That provides much more customization possibilities. You would lose the capacity monitoring piece of the CA3, but for 3.7-3.8V per cell systems, that's not insurmountable. Pack voltage will predict SOC once you adjust to looking at that.

What would all the customization possibilities be? Could both motors still run with PAS? No right? How could one read pack voltage without CA? What’s SOC?

You could make the new motor and Phaserunner the primary source for motivation. Use the CA3 selectable 3 options to limit the original motor's participation to say 100W (or whatever) normally to simulate freewheeling for setting 1, but use a button to select mode 2 and 3 to increase the output going to the secondary motor for going up hills. This would make the tuning much easier, it only needs to work in high demand situations.

Im thinking, I’d have one CA configuration for grinfeon use with a PR and keep it on the bike once both PR’s are there. In case of some error etc.

But as far as configuration for power. If it all was PAS set up. I’d imagine that would be the quickest way no?

Hmmmm...lots to think about.
[/quote]

This idea is for better matching of mismatched motor controllers. Not matched PRs. But in this scenario PAS would only work for one motor. Possibly a deal breaker. You could read pack voltage, but the CA3 would only see the current draw from one of the two motors. SOC is State of Charge, so the CA3 while giving a good voltage reading, the remaining capacity of the battery would not be calculated properly.

Forget this whole post, if running 2 Phaserunners.
 
BlueSeas said:
Matteo's Mobile Bicycle Repair said:
The issue is the Phaserunner is a torque controller, and the Grinfeon is speed based. Control for the motors is provided by a nominal 0-5V signal, with a hall throttle (most all), it's really more like a 1.2-4.5V range. So the throttle generates a signal and passes it to the CA3. Inside the CA3, there are many parameters where this signal can be modified to make the bike operate more smoothly, enforce limitations (speed, battery current, motor temp) and finally to integrate PAS. For discussion, you use the bike throttle to command 10%. So that turns out to be a 1.9V signal. To the Grinfeon, this equates to 10% of max rotation speed. To the PHaserunner, this means 10% of max torque. On the stand, one motor spins at 10%, the other spins at 100%, since 10% of max torque is sufficient to reach max RPM without a load.

The first tuning step is to make both motors start at the same signal level. For now, assuming you were happy with the original programming I would not change the programming of the CA3, except maybe to turn off proportional Ebrake regen if it's ON. And finally, I probably would set the CA3 throttle to PassThru for now. This may likely get set back to current later.

Okay, finally going to make sure I understand! So Deep Blue, thnx! Why does the regen turn off?

The steps above this comment are for programming for the CA3. I'm suggesting in the beginning, you disable regen. It can be turned back on once the the motors work right in forward propulsion. Do you use regen with the original one motor configuration? Do you want to use regen? Enabling this is best handled in a separate response

Yes I always use regen with the front motor, and assumed it would be best for me to use the regen functionality of both my crystalyte ufo and Gmac, seperate response, gotcha, ya much appreciated. ya i don't yet know anything about how to set the regen parameters for what...is appropriate for the system to take..or how to know what it can take. but I'd love to have it at the max if I can find out what those limitations are.

Then find this CA3 display:

505B219E-55CC-4EA3-AA85-20E9BD7D0B83.jpeg

It shows the throttle input and output voltages from the CA3. Note the throttle output voltage where the Grinfeon controller starts to spin the wheel. Note the voltage where the Grinfeon motor reaches maximum speed.


Then using the PC program it's time to program iteration 1 of the Phaserunner configuration to match the Grinfeon. Make sure you've already learned the motor and set the basic parameters for your battery. Then find this screen:

Just want to confirm. “Learned motor?” Ca3 is already set for the batteries if that’s what you mean. Yes I think I’ll keep grinfeon on bike and have CA config set for this even when other PR arrives for if ever a PR goes down or something.

The CA3 and each Phaserunner motor controller has its own configuration steps. The Grinfeon is pretty much hard coded, I'm not sure there is any programming possible. The CA3 and Phaserunner both have battery parameters to program. They all get setup to match your battery packs. The "learned motor" comment is the same as auto tune and one of the initial steps in the manual for programming each PR to match the Motor it's connected to. See section 4.1, 4.2, 4.3 in the PR manual. The motor tuning parameters of each PR is unique to motor connected to that controller.


oh okay, yes i know how to autune the PR's, done that a few times. thanks for explaining.

06C75237-6FC8-4101-9B2B-81C5C88B8220.jpeg

Set the brake active range to be lower than the minimum output voltage of the CA3 with the throttle completely off.

What does this do? Just tells CA that I want that lower voltage achieved when I hit ebrake?

This programming is for the PR. As a step in the setup, the idea is to disable regen. For now. The CA3 will stop the throttle output to both controllers on application of either brake lever, but no regen.

the Ca3 when in the settings disables the throttle but not the REgen, is that why i couldnt get my motor to move in the stand the other day!? ....hmmm ok thanks


Set the throttle active range to the voltages noted for the Grinfeon.

Just to confirm, I noted this range. While the Gmac was connected or not make a difference?

It shouldn't matter. However, it might not align exactly to what the controller sees. For example, in one of my configurations, the CA display indicates it's sending 1V at rest, but my controller reports 1.2V instead. With the PR, you won't be able to see a direct reading of the throttle voltages. But you will be able to program the PR to "start" at a specific voltage, and as you ramp up the throttle observe any difference between what the CA3 reports and how the PR responds.


ok

Most important, while on the stand, make sure the throttle position where the wheels begins to spin is matched exactly, or as close as you can get. Make sure at full throttle both wheels look like they are spinning at their top speed. This full speed is subjective. The wheels won't spin at the same speed. That's OK, but they ought to spin smoothly.

If the Phaserunner is now primary, check the speed readout on the CA3. It's possible that this may need recalibration, the number of magnets pulsing the hall sensor per full rotation is likely different for the GMAC (per Grin it's 6) than the Crystalite. This setting is in the CA3 configuration.

Don’t understand this one...so the motors each of various “speedo” pole for CA, and magnetic pole pairs for phaserunner. Grin says 23, I don’t understand which setting exactly your referring to...and if I would be setting this to match.. Speedo #? And of one motor or the other or both? Thnx!


In the dual motor configuration, there are some signals not shared, and only apply to the controller plugged into the primary slot on the Y connector. This includes the speed sensing wire and motor temperature sensing wire. The speed sensing has to know how many magnets pass the hall sensor for a full revolution of the wheel. The GMAC and Crystalite have different magnet counts. These specs, along with other motor data you will need are on Grins website, on the motor product page, in one of the pull downs.

If the Crystalite has a temp sensor, you can make it primary and the CA3 speed sensing would remain unchanged. However, if it doesn't have a temp sensor, the GMAC does, so it needs to in the primary slot and have the speedo calibrated to that motor.


ahh okay yes, just wanted to make sure you were referring to the magnetic pole pairs. yes my crystalyte has a temp sensor, and if ive understood the simulator corretly seems to be the motor most likely to over heat

but actually when i just did this motor simulation, and attempted to have the human WH at 350 for each and see how things fared at grade, it automatically upped the Hwh for the crystalyte for some reason to 420 which i don't understand.
I still don't understand why when one moves the cursor on the graph up in speed/grade it doesn't automatically move the throttle percentage as i would imagine they would co relate. but when i had both at 71% throttle 350 hwh of me and 8% grade it actually seems that the Gmac is giving out much less energy and it says its more likely to overheat! I don't understand why, but i guess this is why i need to limit my crystalyte back, if the gmac is doing less work i don't understand why it would be the soonest to overheat..
Is this what you meant when you said i could send the link to the graph? I assumed i could send a link that would enable you to see the whole graph.
Human Pwr (W) Thrust (Lbs) Mtr Pwr (W) % Grade (%) Eff (%) Speed (kph) Mtr RPM Mtr Current (A) Batt Pwr (W) Batt Current (A) Batt Volts (V) Acc (kph/s) Consump (Wh/km) Range (km) Overheat In (mins) Final Temp (°C)
280 6.6 368 0.1 82.9 44.8 334.4 8.8 445 8.6 51.9 -2.60 9.9 86 never 36
315 6.2 345 0.1 82.4 45.2 336.9 8.3 418 8.0 52.0 -2.61 9.3 92 never 36
350 5.7 320 0.1 81.8 45.5 339.4 7.7 392 7.5 52.1 -2.61 8.6 99 never 36
385 5.2 296 0.1 81.1 45.8 341.9 7.2 365 7.0 52.1 -2.61 8.0 108 never 35
420 4.8 272 0.1 80.2 46.2 344.4 6.6 339 6.5 52.2 -2.61 7.3 117 never 35


The remainder of the tuning will be based on test rides, and a subjective analysis of how well the motors match up in operation. Here are a few things you can "tune"

1) The upper end of the Phaserunner throttle active range. It could be increased to slow the ramp up of the Phaserunner, or lowered to increase the ramp up. Don't change the low end so both motors start at the same point.

To confirm, slow ramp up is slow acceleration I assume. You can just not answer if it’s a yes ;) wanna appreciate your time!

Yes :eek:
ok gotcha, if ever i find i want quicker accelleration capacity (for exiting intersections etc) i decrease the upper range of the active throttle range, making note... but that that, but decreasing that wouldn't it also decrease the power id have access too when going up a hill?

2) Current limit in the Phaserunner battery configuration. And all of the motor limits.

Current from battery, what would that change? Other motor limits I don’t know of what I’d want to do in the PR, Oh except, I’ll set Gmac so that it’s always atleast electronically freewheeling (I’ll watch Grin video again)...but i suppose if ever I have an electrical issue the PR won’t be there to keep it doing that anyway.

Most all of this procedure was targeted at trying to match unmatched controllers. The steps probably don't change much, but far less critical. You can start by matching the throttle response curves in both PR. For example, using a range from 1.5 to 4V, will make a 2V throttle signal (from the throttle or PAS) tell the controller to give you the same percentage of available torque. Calculated as .5V over minimum divided by the 2.5V maximum range. The full calculation .5/(4-1.5) = 20%. Each additional .5V of throttle adds another 20% of torque. So 2V = 20%, 2.5V = 40%, and so on until the max 4V signal = 100%.

ah yes, still nice to know since i intend to keep the grinfeon on and a CA setting dialed in for it incase something happens to a PR but perhaps that would require 2 different settings one for if one differing motor shut off and one for if the other did...sounds like a lot to do lol. perhaps just just better to have two PR, the second PR hasn't come in yet. sorry if my questioning hasn't come about with enough knowledge to know how to ask a concise question about a concise plan, i really am happy to compensate your time in any way i can. I can help with long distance cycle touring prep, mechanic assistance with bicycles good gear recomendations! heard of TAnnus solid tires? oh ya this motor simulator link below! how did you do that..i tried to above...
Take a look at this from the motor simulator:

https://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?bopen=true&batt=B4816_GA&cont=PR_H&cont_b=PR_H&batt_b=B4816_GA&motor_b=GMAC10T&mass=400&mass_b=170&throt=100&throt_b=100&autothrot_b=true&autothrot=true&add=true&blue=Lbs&grade=4&hp=150

Don't know if I picked the right Crystalite motor,
you did just mine has statorade!
but that scenario stays pretty balanced up to 80% of throttle. But by 100% throttle, the Crystalite is using 40A to the GMAC's 20A. So I "customized" the Crystalite controller to approximate a Phaserunner set to limit battery current to 25A. See that here:
ya almost me, im a crystalyte h3540- with statorade 700c wheels and Gmac 8T *wow i just read an ES thread explaining what various Turns of motor winding mean...and it through me for a loop..i have a 8T and thats what i got lol. and 2x 52 Volt 16 ah batteries ( a third that i will attempt to open and check cells tonight..see if its saveable. first time opening a battery! probably sending it in to get looked at by someone but i just want to try youtubing how to check cells atleast...

https://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?bopen=true&batt=B4816_GA&cont=cust_25_70_0.03_T&cont_b=PR_H&batt_b=B4816_GA&motor_b=GMAC10T&mass=400&mass_b=170&throt=100&throt_b=100&autothrot_b=true&autothrot=true&add=true&blue=Lbs&grade=4&hp=150

thanks for letting me see, i don't understand why one motor B gmac was stuck with 100 Hwh and the A motor with 150 I'll have to look back at your response where you told me how to send that a motor simulator link.

Especially since you are running dual motors, and the battery is shared, you will likely want to set current limits to preserve your batteries. So say you are limited to 40A, set the CA3 to a maximum of 40A, set both Phaserunners to 20A. But tuning is possible by setting one Phaserunner to 25A and one to 15A. Report your exact Crystalite motor model and winding along with your battery pack specifications and I can take a crack at updating the model more specifically.
oh the system shares one battery? i had understood in an email from grin..that this system would be connected to two batteries at once. which this i like the idea of because it seems more efficient for charging as i can more quickly arrive to one of the 5/6 homes i service in a day and with 2x chargers rejuvenate my system 2x as fast than just charging 1 of course..i think?

omg so this is how the tuning is done! controlling the Amps! this is what i havn't understood amongst many other things in life but your feeding my brain and im so appreciative!!! so ya

I believe I remember from the video, Justin generally suggested both motors operating simultaneously was more efficient. Besides, electrically, if you freewheel one motor by raising the PR configured voltage level for it to start say at 50% throttle, would eliminate some of the benefits of matched controllers. The only way to do that that I can think of is surgery to the wiring harness, inserting 2 SPST switches which disconnect/connect the CA3 output voltage to the each Phaserunner. Switch one off and you have freewheel, switch it back on and you have identical throttle signals to both controllers.

Now PAS. If it worked before, it will work now. If the old battery current limit was 40A. And the new combined limit is 40A, it should work very similar to before. If the new combined current limit is higher, it will offer more assistance. If you have that set such that you can select different assistance levels, you'd probably just select a lower assistance level.
and current limit is controlled...by controller no? last sentence here i didn't get.....




3) Finally after the above are as good as possible, you can go tinker with CA3 settings. Try current throttle mode. Try slowing/speeding the ramp up and ramp down parameters.

Hope this helps! Good luck and let us know.

Thanks! So much for all your help!

I never use my throttle, and we haven’t spoken on PAS, still in the dark there.
Sorry took my a spell to respond I was intimidated by all the info!
[/quote]
 
BlueSeas said:
Matteo's Mobile Bicycle Repair said:
Ya going to get new PR soon, but I’ll practice making grinfeon and PR work.

Understand this is much more difficult, and beyond learning what's out there to configure on the CA3 and PR, the settings themselves won't help much.

oh okay...i wait for new PR...
 
BlueSeas said:
Matteo's Mobile Bicycle Repair said:
tigcross said:
I hear you on the jumping the gun thing, I did did the same with the Gmac. One more thing to add to the mix, the bigger the diameter of the stator in motor, and the smaller the rim it is laced into, the greater the torque. I'm running a Golden Magic Pie 2 with has a 273 mm diameter stator. It is in a 20 inch rim. With an external Grinfieon 40 amp controller and full power at 72 volts, it produces far more torque than the Gmac or anything else that Grin sells. However, I do agree with Spinning Magnets, with your weight and hills, you may need to abandon hub motors and go with a mid drive.

Abandone all my hub motors ! Tear....well, I have them now, will try to make the best of them, I don’t mind the workout I normally do 200 hwH and 300-400 on hills. But just need a bit more help is all. But then with middrive id be slower on flats? So perhaps a mid drive and 700c hub motor set up running together is my best bet someday down the road

Towing that trailer would eat chains and those little gears in a mid drive for lunch. I think he'd spend more time repairing his bike "truck" than working on client bikes.

Toronto has some hills, but not like out west. Or like ski country in Quebec. I think the 2 hub motors will work well there, but if it doesn't, the best investment is a van. Or a SUV towing a trailer.
NEVER HAVE I EVER! (sarcastic british accent in the tone of a heavy set individual to add pomp) proposterous good sir! I've made it work so far with this trailer and my thighs, im sure i can make it work to my liking with just a bit more e motor help...sit in a van all day!!! id rot away! evvvvveeeen if it was Veggie oil..id still miss the wind in my chest hair
 
going to read throug this now but Blue Seas, I feel so SO SO happy your helping me so much! i hope i can somehow return the karma to the world someday or you somehow. heres my website if you ever want to check out what i do www.matteosbikerepair.com oh i have some good travel stories might entertain you from when i lived off my bicycle for 4 years cycling north and central america on the Adventours tab of my website. here's my fb page check out my Gf's new paint job to the trailer, www.facebook.com/matteosbikerepair/ and if you ever want a Safe Zone helmet mirror best helmet mirrors on the market in my mind and i'd be happy to send one to your address (im the only canadian distributor) or i could ship you Tannus Solid Tires if ever you wanted to buy a set to never get a flat again. oh Or 120 Db bicycle pump refillable air horns That i sell, the inventor and distributor is a toronto fella here. theyre great. id be happy to send you one on me also.


BlueSeas said:
Matteo's Mobile Bicycle Repair said:
BlueSeas said:
When you get the motor simulation completed, the URL in your browser can be copied and pasted to a post. All the parameters will be included, and anyone can click on the link and see the results.

I did tinker with the simulator. At 100% throttle, it looked possible. However at partial throttle it looked hopeless. That said...I would try to make it work. Sounds like the parts are largely installed. If it doesn't work, then you can look at your options.

Thanks I didn’t think of that!!

Ya I think I understand the simulator. But I don’t understand the throttle setting..I understand wattage output on the graph. But than the graph changes so much when one changes the throttle setting. I thought the graph worked by showing what happens when the throttle moves from 0-100%-0
So I don’t get why it changes so much affecting the throttle toggle, I’ll have to go read that page again.

Take a look at this example:

https://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?bopen=true&batt=B4816_GA&cont=cust_25_70_0.03_T&cont_b=PR_H&batt_b=B4816_GA&motor_b=GMAC10T&mass=400&mass_b=170&throt=100&throt_b=100&autothrot_b=true&autothrot=true&add=true&blue=Lbs&grade=4&hp=150

D2D51BF6-1BCC-4E36-8C66-D43B17AA8750.jpeg

If you click on the provided link it goes to the simulator preconfigured to something close to your configuration.

Things to note:

1) At 100% throttle 400 kg bike rider and trailer on a 4% grade:

a) the GMAC overheats in 25 minutes

b) battery amps is pretty balanced at 25/26.6. Easier to look at tables than the actual graphs

c) note range assumes 2 battery packs. So program the battery to 1/2 your pack.

d) tap/click on the graph to select a lower desired speed. The throttles will automatically reduce. Set to 21 kilometers per hour, about 50% throttle, no more overheating and a lower battery load. But not much more range. Note the Auto Throttle box (highlighted) is checked, that's what make this tap feature adjust the throttle setting to the speed selected.
 
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