New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

HrKlev said:

.....It is all extended axles, so I think the problem is worse on those, but the design is still pretty much the same on the 68mm version.......
....
.. If I had not burned the controller, I would probably put it on another bike for road duty. ....

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You realize that the extended axle is an after market solution. One of the problems in that case is the support of it is the same as the short one. The grooves are the weakest points on both lenghts, but as you said, these are not the best on the longest type.
So I think you you can't just compare both lenghts.

A new controller isn't the most expensive part with 30 USD. Replace it and mount the tsdz2 on that bike and have fun.

HrKlev said:

Its like 5 different people experiencing the same here: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=98361 . It is all extended axles, so I think the problem is worse on those, but the design is still pretty much the same on the 68mm version. Enduro bikes usually have wider BB than the old 68mm standard, so it applies to the original post i replied to.

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If you want to bring up the fact that the major respondents to broken cranks are those using an aftermarket supplier and then still blame the design, then by all means do so, but I think most readers here will go OK thats now not a standard motor.

Can I also point out that many of us have moved over to adding a bearing on the non drive side and also fitting one into the spider on the drive side, all to try and aleviate a potential problem that has been raised by a few. As we are using these motors way outside of their original design, we took engineering solutions to better withstand the use we were intending the design to now cope with. With the extra width loading points of the new bearings, the stress on the cranks is less. Is it definitive that it solves what could be a potential problem, not at all and only testing over time will tell.

In its standard form the engine will fit 73mm wide BB's and many of the later press fit BB Enduro bikes ( I think most are around 89 -92mm wide ) can be shortened on the drive side for the motor to just clear the stays and still use the standard motor, certainly we just converted over a Trek with the wider BB. Not all can be converted as its the suspension pick up point on the lower stay that typically limits the chain line and worth a check before cutting the BB.

Engineering tittle tattle without proper testing and one off failures can give abysmal PR to otherwise good products. We need to be careful of what we say on the internet as less skilled people will read and take for gospel some of the most extroadinarily wrong statements.

Waynemarlow said:

You got it, what ever you do to this engine, the doubts are now there for you. You would be much better to put the money from the refund into a second hand specifically designed E commuter bike.

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I think that's good perspective. The reality is that this situation is all in or all out for my usage. As in, there is no middle ground for me between a 1k DIY kit and 7k emtb. I think that I'll try and continue working things out with this motor. If I can't make it work for my usage, hopefully it can work for my wife on a 2012-2014 era 27.5 (non boost spacing) full suspension bike.

Inevitably, I will end up owning a pre-built ebike as there isn't anything on the market for DIY conversions that allow me to ride the way I ride, or ride the kind of bikes that I ride. At that point, I'm perfectly happy commuting on w/e pre-built ebike I end up with.

I'm going to work things out with eco-ebike which may involve further modification at their guidance or returning the motor. Overall, I really think this is a solid motor for the cost, and I'm willing to deal with the fragility of the spindle. Back in the day, we were breaking square taper cranks no matter how much they were overbuilt... I won't be surprised to break this one as well. Hopefully, I can just keep myself from riding it like a jackass... the 45lbs of weight helps that situation as much as it hurts it.

Surely the Bafang BBS02 will give you all you want on a commuter bike. I ran mine at about max 1000 - 1200W and theres some really good free software available which with careful manipulations of the settings, you can get them really almost similar to the torque sensing TSDZ2 feel. From the factory the programing was truely horrible but once I had it dialled in, it was actually a very good motor.

ebbsocalMTB said:

I still have a few questions:
1) David from eco-ebike has suggested that the field weakening and a high cadence can generate heat faster with the OSF. Does anyone here see any logic to that and are there specific parameters I should be looking out for when riding to avoid this? IE, keep cadance below 90, make sure motor RPM is in window XXX-XXX etc?
2) Is field weakening alone, what is allowing the motor to run higher RPM then the stock firmware, or are there other contributors. I've read about Field Weakening, and understand it generally when it would come to an archaic DC motor... but I'm afraid I'm a bit over my head in 3 phase brushless motors... although I'm drinking from the fire hose of knowledge. My assumption at this point is that field weakening is the electric motor equivalent of retarding and advancing ignition timing on an IC engine, and that there is likely a point of no return in here that may be contributing to my problem.

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I would try the same ride again but keep the cadence in the high 70's and see what result you get.

After reading your issues I was thinking of my own use of the unit and I don't think I spend too much time in the 90ish cadence while riding it (mine is on a cargo bike that I haul my kids to school on). But when I go for a mountain bike ride I usually spend lots of time in the 90ish cadence zone.

My understanding of the FOC implemented in the firmware is that it's using some pre-calculated values at points rather than reading the position on every revolution, this is due to limited CPU space. Perhaps at high motor rpm's it's causing issues?

Waynemarlow said:

HrKlev said:

Its like 5 different people experiencing the same here: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=98361 . It is all extended axles, so I think the problem is worse on those, but the design is still pretty much the same on the 68mm version. Enduro bikes usually have wider BB than the old 68mm standard, so it applies to the original post i replied to.

Click to expand...

If you want to bring up the fact that the major respondents to broken cranks are those using an aftermarket supplier and then still blame the design, then by all means do so, but I think most readers here will go OK thats now not a standard motor.

Can I also point out that many of us have moved over to adding a bearing on the non drive side and also fitting one into the spider on the drive side, all to try and aleviate a potential problem that has been raised by a few. As we are using these motors way outside of their original design, we took engineering solutions to better withstand the use we were intending the design to now cope with. With the extra width loading points of the new bearings, the stress on the cranks is less. Is it definitive that it solves what could be a potential problem, not at all and only testing over time will tell.

In its standard form the engine will fit 73mm wide BB's and many of the later press fit BB Enduro bikes ( I think most are around 89 -92mm wide ) can be shortened on the drive side for the motor to just clear the stays and still use the standard motor, certainly we just converted over a Trek with the wider BB. Not all can be converted as its the suspension pick up point on the lower stay that typically limits the chain line and worth a check before cutting the BB.

Engineering tittle tattle without proper testing and one off failures can give abysmal PR to otherwise good products. We need to be careful of what we say on the internet as less skilled people will read and take for gospel some of the most extroadinarily wrong statements.

Click to expand...

Elinx said:

HrKlev said:

.....It is all extended axles, so I think the problem is worse on those, but the design is still pretty much the same on the 68mm version.......
....
.. If I had not burned the controller, I would probably put it on another bike for road duty. ....

Click to expand...

You realize that the extended axle is an after market solution. One of the problems in that case is the support of it is the same as the short one. The grooves are the weakest points on both lenghts, but as you said, these are not the best on the longest type.
So I think you you can't just compare both lenghts.

A new controller isn't the most expensive part with 30 USD. Replace it and mount the tsdz2 on that bike and have fun.

Click to expand...

I gave the first motor away as parts when I sold the fatbike with the welded axle (buyer was made very aware of my opinions on the shaft, and uses the bike different than what I do), so I dont have it anymore.

The design is still the same on the standard axle. 0.6 bigger diameter, but still a lock ring at the same critical place. I have said what I wanted, so I will stop posting in this thread for now, we will not agree anyway. Hope you guys enjoy your units, it is a very nice motor when everything works!

Elinx said:

beemac said:

.....
... where did people get the new controller? ....

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I think the only store that sells the new 2020 controller is the German EnerProf

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Great thanks! I'm assuming that the v2 controller is like the v1 - and not actually voltage specific from a hardware point of view...

Please have a look at this photo of a main gear fitted to a brand new 48v 750w motor. There is a 4mm diameter keyway, for want of a better description, machined into the main gear bearing housing with a matching keyway machined into the outer diameter of the sprague bearing.

I’ve been around for a few years and I’ve never seen anything like it. It appears to serve to lock the sprague bearing in the housing but why is beyond me. An interference fit should have been enough. It’s a helical gear and I’ve another new motor that is the same. Replacement main gears do not have this.

Perhaps it's cheaper/easier for Tongshneg to do this than produce a reliable/consistent press fit.

Hello everyone,

I just wanted to introduce myself, and my conversion. First off let me say a HUGE thank you to Emmebrusa and everyone else involved in developing the firmware, it really makes this little engine come alive, cadence is vastly improved, and the engine runs much quieter and smoother, It's very natural feeling.



I flashed it yesterday, (an easy process for anyone that can follow instructions, even for digitally challenged persons such as myself) and went for a spin, I managed over 100km (mixed roads and gravel trails with 1000m elevation gain in power assist mode, using mostly tour and switching to sport for hills. For the return home I used Eco mostly with tour for extra help on hills (as I was afraid of the battery running out), I reckon I'd get even more range using these settings from the start. Battery is 48v 15.5Ah 5P13S Hailong with Samsung cells powering 48v 750w motor.

The bike is a charge plug 3 2014 steel framed road bike that I've been using to commute 20km round trip to work on for the past 5 years. The conversion went very smoothly, took about 3 hours with no hiccups, the battery even fits my bottle cage mounts,, with a ziptie up top to prevent rattle.



I still have to tidy up the cable management :wink: and Next up is wider tyres, maybe 650b? Bafang right crank arm and temp sensor, maybe a triangle battery (for stealth) in the future. Is there any reason why I couldn't fit one low down in the triangle just above the Bottom bracket? I was going to get brake sensors but now don't feel it's necessary for my style of riding. I'm so so happy with how the engine feels now but I'll continue to experiment with settings. I'll give hybrid mode a go next, If i can figure out how to get there on the Vlcd-6 :lol: . Switching street mode and getting battery percentage and voltage to display is about the extent of my knowledge so far but I'll figure it out.

These are my Java config settings, everything else is default. It would be great if someone could let me know if anything looks off.


On that note; Is it possible to do the torque sensor calibration on the Vlcs-6?

Thank you so much again to everyone involved in developing the firmware and associated manuals. I had the most fun I've had in years yesterday and this little motor took me places I'd never dream of going under my own power. What a fun and liberating experience.

Bonus view from the top of Slieveboy in Ireland:

Waynemarlow said:

HrKlev said:

If you are doing enduro on your enduro bike, its not the way up you should be worried about, its the way down. The crank is not only underdimensioned and made put of butter, it also has a recess for a lock ring right at the critical spot. I would avoid jumps and drops with that motor, it might hurt.

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Mmmmm what is it with forums and threads where one bad experience written in such terms as above can influence how it’s presumed all operators will experience the same thing. Sorry we do hard XCountry riding that probably to most would be Enduro style riding but just without jumps, and yet to bend or break a crank.

Just the amount of miles we have done and on the number of engines within our group, all without serious mechanical problems, would indicate that if someone is regularly breaking or bending cranks, then it’s that individuals riding style which is taking his engine outside of its design, rather than all engines of its type. Sure if you want to do black or diamond downhills with large jumps then you only have to take one look at the motor and say it’s not for this purpose, so why fit it and then complain that it’s made of butter.

Sometimes we have to make personal engineering design decisions around our own useage requirements. If you want to fit this engine, use it way outside what it was designed for that of a commuter bolt on and then accuse it of being made of butter because you didn’t bother to do basic engineering design assessment, then please don’t put off other users by your own failure to do so.

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I got my replacement torque sensor, off a guy who broke his axel doing jumps........................

I'm interested in this motor but reliability is a big factor for me an I've read about a few issues eg. sprag clutch. I would like to know if the reliability issues have been addressed with updated versions of the motor? Would the bbs02 suit me better for use as a reliable commuter bike?

Skirmish said:

.... the reliability issues have been addressed with updated versions of the motor? ...

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No, this motor is still the same as 2016.
Only mechanical change was the use of helical gears for less noise.
Modifications on the axle aren't improvements, but more economical (read cheaper) modifications.
if you haven't the skills or you don't want to bother about stabilty, buy a BBS

On the other hand, this is one of the cheapest midmotors with a torque sensor and if you have the skills, easy to service.
Also the spare parts are easy to order and relative cheap and the choice to change the firmware for improved OSF.
If you want to spend some time you can improve some imperfections yourself, like for example heat disspipation an play of the axle, by adding heat conductive material and 2 or 3 extra bearings for better axle support. (There is a change that this this relieves the sprag clutch too.)
Imho in that case for commuting only, you will have a reasonable motor.

For those following along in my tsdz2 install saga... I've been communicating with David from Eco-ebike. He's been very helpful in helping me QA/QC the issues and is helping to give input on the thermal capacity mod solutions.

In order to keep checking things off the list that could be issues... I did my same 6.3 mi / 165' elevation gain, commute to work today that I had a few times before. Ambient temps are more or less the same, maybe a handful of degrees warmer. Last time I did this ride I was experiencing overheating issues at 3.72 miles when riding at assist level 6. During that ride, my cadence was keeping the motor at more or less ~500rpm indicated, (which I read as 5,000 rpm) and many times, would end up above that for extended runs (3-5 minutes straight).

Today I tried the same ride, but kept the assist level in 4, and made sure to slow my cadence down to keep the motor at around 400 rpm indicated (again, I assume this is 4k rpm). Motor power seemed to hover around 100-150w for the most part. Average speed on this ride was down by 1.5mph overall, and max was down by 1mph as well. However, temps were never an issue and they stayed around 135-140 degrees for pretty much the entire ride. The motor casing was warm to the touch but not hot.

This is obviously a pretty huge improvement and it points to my high cadence being the problem. With the motor in it's current config, It will start to gradually heat up if I run it at 200w nominal and a cadence that keeps the motor rpm ~ 4,000rpm. However it's not like an out of control diesel engine where it just keeps getting hotter and hotter, even with the assist level at 1/2. It seems that the driver for the heat up truly is the cadence, combined with an assist level that keeps the motor around 200-250w. At the end of my ride this morning, I turned the assist level up, but kept my cadence slow and it does seem to heat up much slower then it was previously with a low assist level and a higher cadence.

So... I think part of the problem has been remedied in that, I just need to spin the bike slower when I'm on this e-bike. Overall, that's fine because I'm comfortable at a wide range of cadences being a mountain biker. I'm going to do a few more rides and then take the motor apart to do the temperature mods. Hopefully, it's just a matter of slowing things down...

Question: If I disable Field Weakening will that put the motor back in it's oem 90rpm cadence limit? If so, what is the effective max RPM that the motor is cutting out at so I can get an idea of what sort of gearing/cadence that would leave me with?*

*Sorry if the motor rpm, information is some where and I missed it. I've seen plenty in this thread about the cadence, but I don't quite remember (or I have never seen them) the gearing conversions as to what motor rpm that equates to.

ebbsocalMTB said:

For those following along in my tsdz2 install saga... I've been communicating with David from Eco-ebike. He's been very helpful in helping me QA/QC the issues and is helping to give input on the thermal capacity mod solutions.

In order to keep checking things off the list that could be issues... I did my same 6.3 mi / 165' elevation gain, commute to work today that I had a few times before. Ambient temps are more or less the same, maybe a handful of degrees warmer. Last time I did this ride I was experiencing overheating issues at 3.72 miles when riding at assist level 6. During that ride, my cadence was keeping the motor at more or less ~500rpm indicated, (which I read as 5,000 rpm) and many times, would end up above that for extended runs (3-5 minutes straight).

Today I tried the same ride, but kept the assist level in 4, and made sure to slow my cadence down to keep the motor at around 400 rpm indicated (again, I assume this is 4k rpm). Motor power seemed to hover around 100-150w for the most part. Average speed on this ride was down by 1.5mph overall, and max was down by 1mph as well. However, temps were never an issue and they stayed around 135-140 degrees for pretty much the entire ride. The motor casing was warm to the touch but not hot.

This is obviously a pretty huge improvement and it points to my high cadence being the problem. With the motor in it's current config, It will start to gradually heat up if I run it at 200w nominal and a cadence that keeps the motor rpm ~ 4,000rpm. However it's not like an out of control diesel engine where it just keeps getting hotter and hotter, even with the assist level at 1/2. It seems that the driver for the heat up truly is the cadence, combined with an assist level that keeps the motor around 200-250w. At the end of my ride this morning, I turned the assist level up, but kept my cadence slow and it does seem to heat up much slower then it was previously with a low assist level and a higher cadence.

So... I think part of the problem has been remedied in that, I just need to spin the bike slower when I'm on this e-bike. Overall, that's fine because I'm comfortable at a wide range of cadences being a mountain biker. I'm going to do a few more rides and then take the motor apart to do the temperature mods. Hopefully, it's just a matter of slowing things down...

Question: If I disable Field Weakening will that put the motor back in it's oem 90rpm cadence limit? If so, what is the effective max RPM that the motor is cutting out at so I can get an idea of what sort of gearing/cadence that would leave me with?*

*Sorry if the motor rpm, information is some where and I missed it. I've seen plenty in this thread about the cadence, but I don't quite remember (or I have never seen them) the gearing conversions as to what motor rpm that equates to.

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I did suspect your cadence might be the problem - the clue was the red numbers

I'm not sure there is a 'cadence limit' as such but maybe I've missed that in the code - but I do believe that the field weakening helps with higher cadences.

Are you still at 48v? I think someone maybe mentioned previously - the best way to get an increase in cadence is to increase the voltage - if you have a standard 48v battery - consider upgrading to 52v. I've run the bike at just under 60v using a DC booster coupled to a 48v battery and it runs great - but whilst I'm a reasonable spinner I don't maintain the same cadences as you.

Elinx said:

2 or 3 extra bearings for better axle support.

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Is there a tutorial on how to do this? I haven't seen it mentioned before. Thanks!

Wapous said:

Just to keep you posted on little research I've been doing lately.
The torque of the pinion gear is higher than expected .....

https://youtu.be/w0P0k9jseq0

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Nice one. While it was working did you notice any difference in noise profile!

Skirmish said:

Elinx said:

2 or 3 extra bearings for better axle support.

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Is there a tutorial on how to do this?...

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Not really a tutorial, but an illustration of the spider and some info about bearings you can choose here


The animation is based on the drawing of Wapous

Just a wee chime in here.

I've just taken a spider off that had the standard RS type which we had filled with water proof grease. Sadly the seals have not been enough for the British mud fest and have let water and mud in. I would recommend paying the extra for the enduro style double seal such as the 6902 LLU Max

Waynemarlow said:

....recommend paying the extra for the enduro style double seal such as the 6902 LLU Max

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Also adviced to use glue (641 or epoxy for easy disassembly) for the outer bearings, because the size of the axle isn't exactly 15mm. Maybe an O-ring on the axle to fill the space between crank and bearing could help too.

Yes one of the Brose repairers in the UK now fits an X O ring between the bearing and the crank. Sadly to date I have not been able to find a 15mm X O Ring seal.

Elinx said:

Also adviced to use glue (641 or epoxy for easy disassembly) for the outer bearings, because the size of the axle isn't exactly 15mm.

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Thank you. So water-resistance can be improved with epoxy on between the inner surface of the two outer-most bearings and the axle? Would the additional bearings increase the life of the sprag clutch that is attached to the large gear?

I really like the features of the TSDZ2. I have the skills to do regular maintenance & upgrades on a non-electric bicycle, but I do not have a lot of home DIY experience and I don't have access to a proper workshop. I'm trying to decide if the TSDZ2 motor is appropriate for me compared to the bbs02.

Waynemarlow said:

Yes one of the Brose repairers in the UK now fits an X O ring between the bearing and the crank. Sadly to date I have not been able to find a 15mm X O Ring seal.

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Is that different to the standard rubber seal? I found replacements of those before I started using the sealed bearings instead as you suggested. I'm guessing this isn't what you're looking for - but just in case:

https://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/p25850/15x38x10mm-Nitrile-Rubber-Rotary-Shaft-Oil-Seal-with-Garter-Spring-R23-/-TC/product_info.html

No a rotary seal relies on a lip sealing on the rotating inner shaft. An XSeal either rotates on the outer surface or on the inner shaft and rotates against a surface wiping that surface. The downside is more drag when your battery dies but do we really care when on one hand it will better protect the bearing against the very rare occasion when you run a battery out.
https://sealshop.eriks.co.uk/t/productxring

Waynemarlow said:

... Brose repairers in the UK now fits an X O ring between the bearing and the crank.....

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An X-ring would be a better option, but O-rings are easier to find.
I think you need about 2mm thickness for a tight fit between crank and new outer bearing.

Skirmish said:

.....Would the additional bearings increase the life of the sprag clutch that is attached to the large gear?.....

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It could be, because the bearing give a bit more sideway support then a rubber seal and the play of the axle is (almost) gone.
Also maybe a bit more protection of breaking the axle with eMTB jumps, because of the support on the other side of the seeger-ring grooves too. But no guarantees given. The torsion of the axle does have also influence with jumps standing on the pedals.

beemac said:

.....
Is that different to the standard rubber seal? ....

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Yes, you have found replacement seals (good find :thumb: ), but if you replace these for bearings, you must prevent water ingress.
So that is why we talk about the use of an Enduro bearing, glue and an X or O-ring.