Welding down a torque arm

FWIW, with a clamping torque arm (that is thoroughly attached to the frame), you wouldn't need axle nuts/washers (except whatever is used to mate the axle shoulders to the frame).
 
I think the culprit here is likely the regen. I may not need to weld anything. I want to do everything else I
mentioned (fix axle, wiring etc) and either use the small 18 amp controller or disconnect the regen on the Aotema stock. The small controller works great and doesn't have regen but is only good for 48v and is low amp rating. Here are a few more pics. How difficult is disconnecting regen on Aotema?dropouts.JPGsteel fork dropouts.JPGsmall vs stock controller.JPG5 mm steel..JPG
 
amberwolf said:
FWIW, with a clamping torque arm (that is thoroughly attached to the frame), you wouldn't need axle nuts/washers (except whatever is used to mate the axle shoulders to the frame).
What's your view on the regen controller? As John CR and Grin Tech suggest : the axle goes to an fro and is fighting against the dropouts. Without regen, the axle will only go one way. So to have regen on a front wheel drive, you need a nearly perfect set up. Regen makes practically no sense anyways as it makes tiny trickle charges.
 
RTLSHIP said:
Regen makes practically no sense anyways as it makes tiny trickle charges.

I can't believe someone is still posting these kinds of anti-regen falsehoods in 2021.

-Regen adds range, it's like getting 5% or more of free battery.
-Reduces maintenance time and cost (I haven't changed a brake pad or fiddled with brake adjustment in years, and I'd use regen if it had no other benefits.
-Increases safety by giving you anti-lock braking, and keeps mechanical brakes fresh and cool for emergency stops and for much safer descents.

I can't believe you're talking about welding on the motor axle when the dropouts those forks could so easily be adapted to become clamping dropouts
 
John in CR said:
RTLSHIP said:
Regen makes practically no sense anyways as it makes tiny trickle charges.

I can't believe someone is still posting these kinds of anti-regen falsehoods in 2021.

-Regen adds range, it's like getting 5% or more of free battery.
-Reduces maintenance time and cost (I haven't changed a brake pad or fiddled with brake adjustment in years, and I'd use regen if it had no other benefits.
-Increases safety by giving you anti-lock braking, and keeps mechanical brakes fresh and cool for emergency stops and for much safer descents.

I can't believe you're talking about welding on the motor axle when the dropouts those forks could so easily be adapted to become clamping dropouts
I have read that it can give 1.5 miles on 30 miles of riding. That ain't much when you consider that most people don't need to ride
that far. Further I have read that regen is not so good with lithium as it can heat up battery. Further, I'm repeating what you and grin tech have publish in refrence to spinouts with repect to regen. So maybe I used histrionics calling it tiny trickle charges.

Finally, what I'm talking about now is using a controller without regen as opposed to welding. You are the guy that believed
somebody back in 2011? But you can't believe I believe something?
 
RTLSHIP said:
John in CR said:
RTLSHIP said:
Regen makes practically no sense anyways as it makes tiny trickle charges.

I can't believe someone is still posting these kinds of anti-regen falsehoods in 2021.

-Regen adds range, it's like getting 5% or more of free battery.
-Reduces maintenance time and cost (I haven't changed a brake pad or fiddled with brake adjustment in years, and I'd use regen if it had no other benefits.
-Increases safety by giving you anti-lock braking, and keeps mechanical brakes fresh and cool for emergency stops and for much safer descents.

I can't believe you're talking about welding on the motor axle when the dropouts those forks could so easily be adapted to become clamping dropouts
I have read that it can give 1.5 miles on 30 miles of riding. That ain't much when you consider that most people don't need to ride
that far. Further I have read that regen is not so good with lithium as it can heat up battery. Further, I'm repeating what you and grin tech have publish in refrence to spinouts with repect to regen. So maybe I used histrionics calling it tiny trickle charges.

Finally, what I'm talking about now is using a controller without regen as opposed to welding. You are the guy that believed
somebody back in 2012? But you can't believe I believe something? You apparently believe I'm living in 2010 because my kit is such?
 
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RTLSHIP said:
Here are a few more pics.

Dude. Those forks are janky AF. Would you use them as a wrench? No you would not. That makes them unsuitable for restraining axle torque.

In the USA, squashed-tube fork tips like that are common only on department store bikes from the 20th century. Is that what you're using?
 
Chalo said:
RTLSHIP said:
Here are a few more pics.

Dude. Those forks are janky AF. Would you use them as a wrench? No you would not. That makes them unsuitable for restraining axle torque.

In the USA, squashed-tube fork tips like that are common only on department store bikes from the 20th century. Is that what you're using?
The forks are strong. They are Chromoly. The tips are solid 5 mm or 1/4" as you can see. No squashed tips. Yes the main body of the fork is tubular but that's common to every bike I've had. I can't imagine what a solid tubeless steel fork would weigh.
I got this bike practically free and brand new though it is a 1991. And the same designed forks have held down the other hub for several years without incident. I think this will work out fine if I go w/ nonregen controller and tie it down properly. I will not weld.
 
In reality, buying a decent $1000. integrated bike will eliminate these problems. I attend to do this one day, but at this point I want to use the materials I have. I will eventually not fool with conversion kits.
 
Chalo said:
Dude. Those forks are janky AF. Would you use them as a wrench? No you would not. That makes them unsuitable for restraining axle torque.

In the USA, squashed-tube fork tips like that are common only on department store bikes from the 20th century. Is that what you're using?

Well I am in 150% agreement with Chalo. Pressed steel forks are garbage ...
and that is coming from someone that runs front hub motors on aluminum forks.
 
RTLSHIP said:
The forks are strong. They are Chromoly. The tips are solid 5 mm or 1/4" as you can see. No squashed tips.

Well, either they're smashed into shape from the tube ends (like an old Huffy), or they're styled to look as if they were. I have never seen a chromoly fork with that treatment, but in principle chromoly can do all the same things that mild steel does, process-wise.

This is a more usual style of fork tip on a quality chromoly fork:
Screenshot_20210505-101444.png

I hope you can see how these are better shaped to resist torque from a flatted axle than the fork tips you have.
[/quote]
 
John in CR said:
-Regen adds range, it's like getting 5% or more of free battery.

Using 5% or more additional battery is cheaper and easier for most folks than making and installing clamping dropouts. It's much less likely to end your ride, your bike, and/or your face than using regen braking without clamping dropouts.
 
Chalo said:
RTLSHIP said:
The forks are strong. They are Chromoly. The tips are solid 5 mm or 1/4" as you can see. No squashed tips.

Well, either they're smashed into shape from the tube ends (like an old Huffy), or they're styled to look as if they were. I have never seen a chromoly fork with that treatment, but in principle chromoly can do all the same things that mild steel does, process-wise.

This is a more usual style of fork tip on a quality chromoly fork:
Screenshot_20210505-101444.png

I hope you can see how these are better shaped to resist torque from a flatted axle than the fork tips you have.
[/quote] these forks were not crimped together if that's what you suggest. I did alter the appearance by filing to fit. Having read up on torque arms, I can now understand that I'm not the only incompetent one with this issue. Some have claimed that anything above 500 watts generates some smearing etc. Definitely as a 5 to 7 mile commuter, I don't need regen related torque.
Sooner or late I'll pony up and get an integrated rear wheel bike. It seems harder to let go or transition right now.
I do have forks similar in style (except for quick release dropouts) to your pic on a Mongoose Sycamore but that bike is for regular use only.
 
Chalo said:
Well, either they're smashed into shape from the tube ends (like an old Huffy), or they're styled to look as if they were. I have never seen a chromoly fork with that treatment, but in principle chromoly can do all the same things that mild steel does, process-wise.

I downloaded the pictures and enlarged them a bit. They are not pressed steel forks but the appearance is deceiving. Still a weak design IMHO. I would not rum 'em with out torque arms. If a rear wheel drops out on a bike then you have a wreck. If the front wheel drops out on a bicycle then you go head over handlebars and your face meets the road (been there, done that and had the bloody T-shirt and scars to prove it).
 
E-HP said:
RTLSHIP said:
In reality, buying a decent $1000. integrated bike will eliminate these problems.

Are you talking about an ebike?

Yes, I want to get a rear wheel drive about 1000W. I'm assuming an integrated bike as an integrated torque system. I want something that will be compatible with my current battery packs such that battery packs can be alternated. Right now I just want to use what I have. I don't want to turn home into a bike barn, so I have to get rid of these kits/bikes if I'm going to replace them. That's the tougher part.
 
RTLSHIP said:
E-HP said:
RTLSHIP said:
In reality, buying a decent $1000. integrated bike will eliminate these problems.

Are you talking about an ebike?

Yes, I want to get a rear wheel drive about 1000W. Decent could be more than $1000. I'm assuming an integrated bike has an integrated torque system. and want to go rear wheel. I want something that will be compatible with my current battery packs such that battery packs can be alternated. Right now I just want to use what I have. I don't want to turn home into a bike barn, so I have to get rid of these 2 kits/bikes if I'm going to replace them. That's the tougher part.
 
All you need is a good tight TA. As I recall, the E bikekit torque arm you have is not exactly the tightest I have seen. Yours may be different, I had some fairly loose ones. But for regen, nothing beats the tightness of a clamping torque arm.

Weld a good thick piece of angle iron to the fork, then bolt a similar one to it, clamping the motor into the fork. Throw away the nuts and washers, the clamp is the thing now.

Something like this, but weld one of the angles to the fork. mongoose pinch dropout.JPG

If the axle is not too round yet, you could also just get, or make, a tighter torque arm, or weld a little on the inside of the one you have, then file back down to a super tight fit.

Then, if you spot weld the join on the TA, it will make it resist the forces a lot better, since the bolt can't slip no matter what. TA welded to fix position.jpg
 
Sorry to butt in, but I am trying to add regen to an XM-3100 19S 40Ah LiFePO4 build (with original 10" hubmonster), and was wondering whether @John in CR (or anyone else) knows whether the original 6-phase controller can be adapted for regen? I have no need for lots of extra power, just the regen braking as I live in the mountains and my brake discs hit 100 C after 5 minutes of "gentle" descent...

I realise I will probably have to adapt the axle clamping situation (could North-Lock washers do the trick?)

Thanks!
 
dogman dan said:
All you need is a good tight TA. As I recall, the E bikekit torque arm you have is not exactly the tightest I have seen. Yours may be different, I had some fairly loose ones. But for regen, nothing beats the tightness of a clamping torque arm.

Weld a good thick piece of angle iron to the fork, then bolt a similar one to it, clamping the motor into the fork. Throw away the nuts and washers, the clamp is the thing now.

Something like this, but weld one of the angles to the fork. mongoose pinch dropout.JPG

If the axle is not too round yet, you could also just get, or make, a tighter torque arm, or weld a little on the inside of the one you have, then file back down to a super tight fit.

Then, if you spot weld the join on the TA, it will make it resist the forces a lot better, since the bolt can't slip no matter what. TA welded to fix position.jpg
Dogman,, where do you get such a monster sized clamp? Or do you make it your self. I'm still messing with these old aotema kits. They actually work fine. I have purchase another torque arm that is 10 x 12 and I'm leaning towards going without regen controller as my other bike runs fine with a Lyen and regular toque arm. This seems to eliminate need to weld. Another idea is to remove/disconnect the regen thanks for input.
 
Scootiggy said:
Sorry to butt in, but I am trying to add regen to an XM-3100 19S 40Ah LiFePO4 build (with original 10" hubmonster), and was wondering whether @John in CR (or anyone else) knows whether the original 6-phase controller can be adapted for regen? I have no need for lots of extra power, just the regen braking as I live in the mountains and my brake discs hit 100 C after 5 minutes of "gentle" descent...

I realise I will probably have to adapt the axle clamping situation (could North-Lock washers do the trick?)

Thanks!
I would practically give you this stock controller with regen as I live in pretty flat Florida. I don't know if it is compatible withyour motor etc. But regen is perhaps useful for hilly/ mountain areas. I don't need it for a 7 to 10 mile flat ride.
This controller was modified/repaired by Lyen to work at 36/48, but it still has regen. no ebrake. Nord lock nuts/washers may not do the trick. With regen the axle is going to twist one way with acceleration and the opposite way when coasting which makes it very demanding situation where all the relevant steel can bend and axle loosens.
 
This Bike has been running nicely since Thanksgiving. The small controller(non-regen) is under the bike rack. The battery in this pic is 48 -20 lifepo. I bought the bike for $35 back in 2017. It is nearly new for a 1991 model. It was apparently in a garage for 25 yrs.
 

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How are those brakes working for you?
 
OK I dig retro because of fashion or cheapness.
To my untrained eye that frame looks to be 20"
And as Chalo stated, those look like weak brakes. Whats best to do, swap them out then frames only setup for center mount caliper. Maybe an adapter?

RTLSHIP said:
This Bike has been running nicely since Thanksgiving. The small controller(non-regen) is under the bike rack. The battery in this pic is 48 -20 lifepo. I bought the bike for $35 back in 2017. It is nearly new for a 1991 model. It was apparently in a garage for 25 yrs.

Chalo said:
How are those brakes working for you?
 
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