Bafang M500/M600 thread

Kyokushin · Aug 10, 2021

I have found the chineese company who can make a bike for your own.
This one costs me 2500 bucks (with all import fees)
https://www.emtbforums.com/community/threads/eshion-tda30l-bafang-m500-m600.23417/

They have also carbon frame similar to E10 in offer.

Bigwheel · Aug 10, 2021

Kyokushin said:
I have found the chineese company who can make a bike for your own.
This one costs me 2500 bucks (with all import fees)
https://www.emtbforums.com/community/threads/eshion-tda30l-bafang-m500-m600.23417/

They have also carbon frame similar to E10 in offer.

Thanks Kyokushin! I monitor that board and missed your posting there. I will see what I can come up with.

4πr^2 · Aug 10, 2021

Bigwheel said:
...

It also makes sense for them to adopt the silent gear and just put the darn thing on there and do an upcharge to the cost. In reality at least for me it would be well worth it and not that much of a hit and certainly better than paying someone to tear apart a brand new motor to install it of which the labor is most of the cost that Luna charges.
...

Guess it may depend a bit on which power level you're talking. At the stock 500w or Luna-ized 750 watts, the plastic gear is probably OK. Though there have been at least a couple failures posted when running the 'silent' gear on the ludicrous ('2000watt') version. Granted the PEEK gear is a dang tough engineering plastic, but trying to channel 2kW through any plastic gear is going to run into some limitations no matter how good the plastic.

For me, I consider the metal gear to be 'premium' - that tiny bit of gear whine is drowned out by wind and tire noise above 15mph while on the bike and even being off the bike with a rider going past me and knowing what to listen for, the tiny bit of whine was essentially inaudible 50 feet away. So not like a Harley shaking windows 5 blocks away.

I don't find the minimal whine of the normal gear too bad and not trying to fool anyone into thinking my thighs are actually propelling the bike to 45mph. But then, I'm old and deaf, so what do I know!

patdam · Aug 10, 2021

4πr^2 said:
Bigwheel said:

...

It also makes sense for them to adopt the silent gear and just put the darn thing on there and do an upcharge to the cost. In reality at least for me it would be well worth it and not that much of a hit and certainly better than paying someone to tear apart a brand new motor to install it of which the labor is most of the cost that Luna charges.
...

Click to expand...

Guess it may depend a bit on which power level you're talking. At the stock 500w or Luna-ized 750 watts, the plastic gear is probably OK. Though there have been at least a couple failures posted when running the 'silent' gear on the ludicrous ('2000watt') version. Granted the PEEK gear is a dang tough engineering plastic, but trying to channel 2kW through any plastic gear is going to run into some limitations no matter how good the plastic.

For me, I consider the metal gear to be 'premium' - that tiny bit of gear whine is drowned out by wind and tire noise above 15mph while on the bike and even being off the bike with a rider going past me and knowing what to listen for, the tiny bit of whine was essentially inaudible 50 feet away. So not like a Harley shaking windows 5 blocks away.

I don't find the minimal whine of the normal gear too bad and not trying to fool anyone into thinking my thighs are actually propelling the bike to 45mph. But then, I'm old and deaf, so what do I know!

It depand of yout expectation and use. personally i found the M600 500W too powerfull and i don't use the max power. I appreciate also a lot the silence of the last revision with the plastic gear. The only upgrade i whould like, it's an 1 mode of 3 less powerful and an throttle at 6km/h max for walk mode use.

About the dengfu, i have bad opinion about their after sale and commercial servicies. But i must admit their E10 frame is a really great frame. For me the better bike i had riding until now, and by far

Bigwheel · Aug 11, 2021

Thanks for the replys guys. End of the day if in stock form, as of today, the motors are quiet then that is all I need. I am not looking for ludicrous power at all. I use between 300-500w at most of assist and am in it for the exercise so pedaling is a key part of my outings. Range for sure is more important than speed.

Having a throttle on board is perhaps the main reason I am even interested in the M600 truth be known. I have been riding motorized bikes for a long time and would feel naked without one for the 100' or so per 30mile ride I use it for and would also be just fine with a high torque/low speed version.

I have more concerns however with the overall build I envision but won't clog up this thread that is more dedicated to the actual motor itself. Carry on!

Kyokushin · Aug 11, 2021

Throttle may be connected both to M500 and M600 btw.

patdam · Aug 11, 2021

Bigwheel said:
Thanks for the replys guys. End of the day if in stock form, as of today, the motors are quiet then that is all I need. I am not looking for ludicrous power at all. I use between 300-500w at most of assist and am in it for the exercise so pedaling is a key part of my outings. Range for sure is more important than speed.

Having a throttle on board is perhaps the main reason I am even interested in the M600 truth be known. I have been riding motorized bikes for a long time and would feel naked without one for the 100' or so per 30mile ride I use it for and would also be just fine with a high torque/low speed version.

I have more concerns however with the overall build I envision but won't clog up this thread that is more dedicated to the actual motor itself. Carry on!

regarding build, you can find more recommendation here: https://www.emtbforums.com/community/forums/diy-ebike-builds.61/

Bigwheel · Aug 11, 2021

regarding build, you can find more recommendation here: https://www.emtbforums.com/community/forums/diy-ebike-builds.61/
[/quote]

Thanks patdam but doing DIY is not my problem, I have DIY'd like 30 eBikes since 2000 and custom frame builds before that on pedal mtb's. I just need a frame and M600 system and can figure out the rest no problem. Well there is a bit of a problem in that I am kind of a cheaparse and you can't just willy nilly start piling up stuff and expect it to work without a frame to base it off the way that "standards" are anymore.

I will say one last thing though that Dengfu has shot itself in the foot giving Luna exclusive rights to North America for the E10. Cause there are those in the wings that just might sweep in here with even better more up to date geo options for the upcoming 2022 model year.

Waynemarlow · Aug 13, 2021

Has anyone managed to use the BT capability of say the Garmin Edge to link with the M600 via one of the Bafang BT capable displays, or is the data not your standard LEV data fields ? Would be good to be able to use some of the Garmin Edge display and data collection capability

casainho · Aug 13, 2021

Waynemarlow said:
Has anyone managed to use the BT capability of say the Garmin Edge to link with the M600 via one of the Bafang BT capable displays, or is the data not your standard LEV data fields ? Would be good to be able to use some of the Garmin Edge display and data collection capability

EBike LEV is ANT communications only, not Bluetooth.

With our EBike wireless controller and OpenSource firmware for this motor controllers, than support on Garmin Edge GPS cycling devices as also smartwatchs, would be possible.

Kaarthi · Aug 14, 2021

ornias said:
casainho said:

ornias said:

Waynemarlow said:

Luna in the States have gone further with their own controller and Pex replacement main gear to quieten down the older M600’s. The later factory M600’s and M500’s now have Pex main gears and are comparable with a belt driven unit.

Click to expand...

Luna never said they replaced the controller with their own controller for the M600, considering it's still fully BESST compatible and no one completely reverse engineered the CANBUS protocol yet, this is highly unlikely.

Considering they stated in the past they needed a hardware change,a firmware flash and software (BESST) to connect it to the motor unit, I expect they execute a shuntmod and adapting the assistence curve in the firmware accordingly for at least the 1500W version. Because that's all that would be needed, as technically the controller is already capable of handling 30A*48V.

All things considered, it would be nicer if Luna Cycles started to embrace opensource and DIY and share which knowhow they have about the motors and which procedures they follow to modify theirs. We donnot need any proprietary software at this stage, we mostly just need to start to learn how the product behaves.

On a completely different note:
It seems a norwegian company got BAFANG to write custom firmware for the M600 to make them EU road legal, called the M600S:
If ANYONE could get their hands on a firmware file, that would be absolutely golden.

Click to expand...

The best would be to write our own OpenSource firmware!! But first we need to find a way to source relatively cheap the original motor controller.

Click to expand...

Agreed 100%... If we could dump complete firmware and reflash it, that would be easier and less DMCA prone than reverse enginering Bafangs firmware files.

Anyway, motor controllers are available here for relatively cheap:
https://flx.bike/collections/replacement-parts/products/controller-dz-multi?variant=31247163752584

As far as I can find out (because not one has posted high res overview pictures of the controller yet), it looks to be an STM32 based board.

I am developing a completely custom firmware for this motor, if anyone confirm me that whether this is running in sensor or sensorless motor control, it would be helpful. Because I am not seeing any hall sensor for position measurement in this motor. And signals of torque sensor also I want to know

casainho · Aug 14, 2021

Kaarthi said:
I am developing a completely custom firmware for this motor, if anyone confirm me that whether this is running in sensor or sensorless motor control, it would be helpful. Because I am not seeing any hall sensor for position measurement in this motor. And signals of torque sensor also I want to know

And is that firmware OpenSource? If so, can you share a link for Github or such?

Kaarthi · Aug 14, 2021

It's not any readily available opensource firmware, it completely done by me and Yes, it will be made open source and will post it on GitHub, once I complete it. So I want to know these details first

casainho · Aug 14, 2021

Kaarthi said:
It's not any readily available opensource firmware, it completely done by me and Yes, it will be made open source and will post it on GitHub, once I complete it. So I want to know these details first

If you are asking for help, then you should upload your current development code, unless you are afraid to change your mind later - you can disappear for any reason - why would we trust on you but you do not trust on us?

Ryanniel · Aug 15, 2021

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002278594187.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.75e44d55mOcKa5&algo_pvid=1687b2c9-d5cc-4b71-866a-e860c220104a&algo_exp_id=1687b2c9-d5cc-4b71-866a-e860c220104a-31&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2212000019884514293%22%7D

will this work on bafang m600 motor?

Kyokushin · Aug 16, 2021

Ryanniel said:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002278594187.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.75e44d55mOcKa5&algo_pvid=1687b2c9-d5cc-4b71-866a-e860c220104a&algo_exp_id=1687b2c9-d5cc-4b71-866a-e860c220104a-31&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2212000019884514293%22%7D

will this work on bafang m600 motor?

No, it have UART communication (like BBS02B), M600 have CAN.

Ryanniel · Aug 16, 2021

Kyokushin said:
Ryanniel said:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002278594187.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.75e44d55mOcKa5&algo_pvid=1687b2c9-d5cc-4b71-866a-e860c220104a&algo_exp_id=1687b2c9-d5cc-4b71-866a-e860c220104a-31&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2212000019884514293%22%7D

will this work on bafang m600 motor?

Click to expand...

No, it have UART communication (like BBS02B), M600 have CAN.

Thanks. Any alternative recommendation?

Kyokushin · Aug 16, 2021

Ryanniel said:
Kyokushin said:

Ryanniel said:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002278594187.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.75e44d55mOcKa5&algo_pvid=1687b2c9-d5cc-4b71-866a-e860c220104a&algo_exp_id=1687b2c9-d5cc-4b71-866a-e860c220104a-31&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2212000019884514293%22%7D

will this work on bafang m600 motor?

Click to expand...

No, it have UART communication (like BBS02B), M600 have CAN.

Click to expand...

Thanks. Any alternative recommendation?

860C (CAN version) is colour but have NO BOOST function.
I am using CP241 - black & white compact LCD with BOOST and bluetooth function, throttle and it is showing everything as i need.

Ryanniel · Aug 16, 2021

Kyokushin said:
Ryanniel said:

Kyokushin said:

Ryanniel said:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002278594187.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.75e44d55mOcKa5&algo_pvid=1687b2c9-d5cc-4b71-866a-e860c220104a&algo_exp_id=1687b2c9-d5cc-4b71-866a-e860c220104a-31&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2212000019884514293%22%7D

will this work on bafang m600 motor?

Click to expand...

No, it have UART communication (like BBS02B), M600 have CAN.

Click to expand...

Thanks. Any alternative recommendation?

Click to expand...

860C (CAN version) is colour but have NO BOOST function.
I am using CP241 - black & white compact LCD with BOOST and bluetooth function, throttle and it is showing everything as i need.

Oldman9a · Aug 16, 2021

Kyokushin said:
Ryanniel said:

Kyokushin said:

Ryanniel said:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002278594187.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.75e44d55mOcKa5&algo_pvid=1687b2c9-d5cc-4b71-866a-e860c220104a&algo_exp_id=1687b2c9-d5cc-4b71-866a-e860c220104a-31&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2212000019884514293%22%7D

will this work on bafang m600 motor?

Click to expand...

No, it have UART communication (like BBS02B), M600 have CAN.

Click to expand...

Thanks. Any alternative recommendation?

Click to expand...

860C (CAN version) is colour but have NO BOOST function.
I am using CP241 - black & white compact LCD with BOOST and bluetooth function, throttle and it is showing everything as i need.

I use both. The 860C CAN + the CP241 with the M500. Both displays have the Boost functionality. The difference is, the 860C CAN exceeds the 25km/h automatically when reaching the 25km/h limit. Without pressing the Boost button.

Kyokushin · Aug 16, 2021

Interesting.
It is just assisting paddling after 25km/h speed exceed?
Is throttle also exceeding 25km/h?
Does it allow to change speed limit from display? I am thinking for example to set 60km/h from BESST in controller then limit to 25 from display.

How to use them both at same time?

I am asking in matter to have something like 'offroad' mode.

What is difference between ECO and SPORT?

Ryanniel · Aug 16, 2021

Oldman9a said:
Kyokushin said:

Ryanniel said:

Kyokushin said:

No, it have UART communication (like BBS02B), M600 have CAN.

Click to expand...

Thanks. Any alternative recommendation?

Click to expand...

860C (CAN version) is colour but have NO BOOST function.
I am using CP241 - black & white compact LCD with BOOST and bluetooth function, throttle and it is showing everything as i need.

Click to expand...

I use both. The 860C CAN + the CP241 with the M500. Both displays have the Boost functionality. The difference is, the 860C CAN exceeds the 25km/h automatically when reaching the 25km/h limit. Without pressing the Boost button.

Is it Plug and Play or you have to pair or reset something? Thanks

Oldman9a · Aug 17, 2021

Let me explain step by step.
I don't have/need the BESST.
After 25km/h no additional legwork is necessary. Moped mode.
The throttle(walkmode?) switch off at 6km/h, also in BOOST mode.
The 860C is Plug&Play.
I didn't find out yet the practical difference between ECO and SPORT.

No, not at the same time. The CP241 is the original display delivered with the Fat(bike). Mostly I use the 860C only, because it is more eye-friendly. See my Nickname.

The CP241 will be my replacement display.

Some information for the experts. This is the second M500 engine in my bike. A replacement engine. The first one got a mech. problem, free wheel blocked sometimes. With the first engine the 860C reached 50km/h in BOOST mode. Now, with the second engine BOOST switched off at 32km/h. Both observed the rear wheel liftet up. It seems, the display itself is open to read and work with the controller settings. The limitation should be the controller firmware.

Some limitations of the 860C display. Despite own battery it doesn't save drive data i.e. total kilometers too. After power off all data are at zero. Except the correct time. Wheel size is fix, read out from the controller. Settings like 3, 5 or 9 level are set to 5 again.

Excuse my english, I answer from Germany. If you have any further questions, gladly.

thomasrtg · Aug 17, 2021

Hi, when you use the 860c display can you adjust your level of assistance? I mean can you "reprogram" the different mods?

I'll explain what I would like to achieve.
I have design and manufacture a road bike that uses an m500 motor. It is incredible and works like a charm, however, in most cases it is too powerful and provides too much assistance. I am looking for a way to reduce the assistance level in mode 1.

I was also wondering if anyone knows if it exists a display that.. Have no display

. I would like to be able to turn on the motor and change the mods but I don't want a bafang lcd as I have already my garmin on my bike. I think it looks a bit ugly with all thees screens

.

patdam · Aug 18, 2021

Oldman9a said:
The throttle(walkmode?) switch off at 6km/h, also in BOOST mode.

I'm not any fluent in english also (french) but i understand that with the 860C you can use the throttle to walk mode with 6 km/h at full throttle ?

how you do that ? you switch to walk mode and use throttle whithout any more specific parameters ? which software revision you have ?

thank you of your help

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