New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

casainho said:
Assuming you are pulling 12Ah average, means that 8Ah will loose more energy internally as the internal resistance shoild be higher.

If you pull like 18Ah, some cells has a so big internal resistance that you will lost 25% of power on the battery inside, like you will use 100% of battery power while the motor is using only 75%.
You see this lost because the battery voltage drops when you pull more current. That is the way we calculate the battery internal resistance and then calculate the battery state of charge, since we need to account with the energy lost inside the battery: Power loss = battery resistance * Current (squared)
Click to expand...

ok the reason I mentioned 8ah is because I have seen some samsung 21700 40T cells that are 4Ah so if I could make a 13s2p pack that would be 8ah and less than 2kg, each cell is 67g....26x67=1.74kg
or is it better to go 14s or even 15s for higher voltage?
I finally ordered a 48v motor with 6 pin and the vlcd5 so I hope to get the opensource software on it to help me ride through the winter lol (just road and light trail till the spring)
thanks!
 
frenchie said:
ok the reason I mentioned 8ah is because I have seen some samsung 21700 40T cells that are 4Ah so if I could make a 13s2p pack that would be 8ah and less than 2kg said:
13S is the best solution for a 48 volts TSDZ2 and the temperature sensor is highly recommended.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
frenchie said:
casainho said:
Assuming you are pulling 12Ah average, means that 8Ah will loose more energy internally as the internal resistance shoild be higher.

If you pull like 18Ah, some cells has a so big internal resistance that you will lost 25% of power on the battery inside, like you will use 100% of battery power while the motor is using only 75%.
You see this lost because the battery voltage drops when you pull more current. That is the way we calculate the battery internal resistance and then calculate the battery state of charge, since we need to account with the energy lost inside the battery: Power loss = battery resistance * Current (squared)
Click to expand...

ok the reason I mentioned 8ah is because I have seen some samsung 21700 40T cells that are 4Ah so if I could make a 13s2p pack that would be 8ah and less than 2kg, each cell is 67g....26x67=1.74kg
or is it better to go 14s or even 15s for higher voltage?
I finally ordered a 48v motor with 6 pin and the vlcd5 so I hope to get the opensource software on it to help me ride through the winter lol (just road and light trail till the spring)
thanks!
Click to expand...
14S / 52V is important if you are looking for higher cadence. 13S / 48V means 90 RPM cadence but 14S means 14/13 higher cadence.

If you are ok with 90 cadence and if you want to optimize battery size and weight, then go with 48V.

My TSDZ2 firmware measures my battery resistance as 0.325 ohms. If I pull the max of 18 amps from the battery, then motor gets 52V * 18A = 936W but the loss on the battery is 0.325 * 18 * 18 = 105 watts. If I increase from 2P to 3P, then the resistance would be 3/2 of 0.325, which means a loss of 70W instead of 105W.

I have cells of 3.6Ah but there are ones with 2.5Ah for the same size and package... the lower capacity ones have much better internal resistance, so, much less power losses.
 
ebbsocalMTB said:
4AH of battery capacity?
Click to expand...
1 battery is 3.6v with a rating of 4000mAh or 4ah so 2 of those in parallel give you 8ah
ie 13s2p is 26 cells with 13x3.6v giving 46.8v........with 14s you get 50.4v
I think I've worked that out right and tried to get my own head around it lol
edit: that's obvs for the cells I'm looking at which are 21700 Samsung ones....
 
So I have a general question. I have a 48v 13ah battery and 750w TSDZ2 - changed to a 52 front chain ring. I find it quite a challenge to get even close to 45kph on a flat and yet I feel there is more power to get out of the model?
 
Tefoonez said:
So I have a general question. I have a 48v 13ah battery and 750w TSDZ2 - changed to a 52 front chain ring. I find it quite a challenge to get even close to 45kph on a flat and yet I feel there is more power to get out of the model?
Click to expand...
You need to check on the display what is the current the motor is pulling from the battery, to understand if the motor is already giving the max or not.
 
casainho said:
Tefoonez said:
So I have a general question. I have a 48v 13ah battery and 750w TSDZ2 - changed to a 52 front chain ring. I find it quite a challenge to get even close to 45kph on a flat and yet I feel there is more power to get out of the model?
Click to expand...
You need to check on the display what is the current the motor is pulling from the battery, to understand if the motor is already giving the max or not.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply. I don't know how to show that and I suspect my display is not good enough to do so. I have the VLCD6.
 
frenchie said:
ok the reason I mentioned 8ah is because I have seen some samsung 21700 40T cells that are 4Ah so if I could make a 13s2p pack that would be 8ah and less than 2kg, each cell is 67g....26x67=1.74kg
or is it better to go 14s or even 15s for higher voltage?
I finally ordered a 48v motor with 6 pin and the vlcd5 so I hope to get the opensource software on it to help me ride through the winter lol (just road and light trail till the spring)
thanks!
Click to expand...

The 40T's will work fine in this application as they have by memeory some 35A max rating on each cell. We have used them for a couple of years and they are probably the pick of all the cells we have used as a 13S2P or 14S2P. We have used the Samsung 50T as a 14S3P with great success, they are really power packed cells but they would be no good as a xxS2P

14S2P ( 52 volts ) works really well but most will recommend that with the later softwares and the FOC, its no longer so important.

You can't run 52volts on the standard 48 volt motor, it will go straight into ERR mode as it will ahve too higher max voltage.
 
Waynemarlow said:
14S2P ( 52 volts ) works really well but most will recommend that with the later softwares and the FOC, its no longer so important.

You can't run 52volts on the standard 48 volt motor, it will go straight into ERR mode as it will ahve too higher max voltage.
Click to expand...
hi wayne
thanks for your post
which opensource software would you recommend? and would you advise going 14s with that?
i'm looking at road/light trail first off so I'm more interested in speed at the moment and I'm happier spinning the cranks up rather than grinding them lol
cheers!
 
frenchie said:
which opensource software would you recommend? and would you advise going 14s with that?
i'm looking at road/light trail first off so I'm more interested in speed at the moment and I'm happier spinning the cranks up rather than grinding them lol
cheers!
Click to expand...
I can't really say which is best as we have both a number of versions both using 36 volt factory units running on 48 volts and by using the LCD3 latest version ( which is my favourite as you can virtually set every parameter to your own useage ) we have both 36 volts and 48 volt motored units.

If you want to spin the cranks and just keep the factory software, then go 36 volt motor with 48 volt programming. If you want the best display and ease of use, the LCD3 is really very good in sunshine and ease of use ( beware there are some new LCD3 units that now need to be modified slightly ), the all singing and dancing colour display, sorry I've not used it.
 
Waynemarlow said:
If you want to spin the cranks and just keep the factory software, then go 36 volt motor with 48 volt programming.
Click to expand...

well I've just ordered a 48v 500w with a 6 pin VLCD5........I like a bit of hacking so I'll defo go opensource firmware and might even try the bluetooth display thingy...

what advantage do you get out of 36v motor with 48v programming? is that relevant with the opensource stuff?
thanks again!
 
I bought a SW102 display to install on my cargo bike with TSDZ2. While following the process to open this display to flash the bootloader firmware, I destroyed the display because I was counting to have the flash pins on a place and there was not, because this seems to be a different board :-( :-(

Older board:
SW102_solder_SWD_wires-03.jpg


Some other board version:
image.png


So, I decided I will not invest more on SW102 and instead build a display using similar OLED display with similar size, and I will reuse TSDZ2 wireless board for which I will only need to solder extra 4 wire for the popular cheap I2C OLED display. This way I will reuse the firmware we did developed for SW102, as the microcontroller we are using is similar but more recent and powerful.

Would be sad to lost the firmware we did develop:
[youtube]q0N5W3Fgyjk[/youtube]


This is the current TSDZ2 wireless board (that can also easily done DIY, without this custom PCB):
file.php

file.php


To that board, we just need to add 4 wires to connect to this OLED display:


They keypad can be the good one from 850C display, that we can buy cheap at unit:
uploading a photo

And I also have the most popular electric scooter Xiaomi M365 with OpenSource firmware, that I can also use this display for it. It only need extra simple connections to wire throttle and brake sensor.
 
frenchie said:
what advantage do you get out of 36v motor with 48v programming? is that relevant with the opensource stuff?
thanks again!
Click to expand...
Just higher cadence and cooler motor. I'm not sure about the relavence of a 36 volt motor running or 48 volt under Opensource as there has been a lot programming done to include types of FOC over the years and the lines are now getting pretty blurred over the 36 volt and 48 volt motors. I have both and they are hard to distinguish at lower Watts but once you want to pull 750W's then just go for the 48 volt motor. Under 600W's then the 36 volt motor is lighter ( for the weight weenies ) and seems to want to spin up much easier.

In some ways I prefer the 36 volt motor as the 48 volt seems to be much torqueir and rides slightly different to the 36 volt. Hard to explain but if you regulalry ride analogues then the 36 volts at say 550W's limit gives a great all round workout and feels just like a fast but heavy analogue.
 
eyebyesickle said:
sysrq said:
"Never use thermal compounds and thermal pads together."
https://blog.arctic.ac/blog/2015/07/23/thermal-pads-or-thermal-paste/
Not sure if always true.

Forgot to take into account typical BLDC motor efficiency (85%), so the requered power handling capacity of the heat pipe would be only around 50-60W for a 350W motor. That would mean that wrapping one 5 mm pipe around the motor and attaching it with thermal epoxy in to the round corner next to the controller should be enough. This way there isn't any need to attach anything to the black low thermal mass external cover.

Another low key solution I can think of would be tying around the motor some 2-5mm thick OFHC copper L bends depending on measurements in between the screws around in conjunction with thermal pads using a jubilee clip. The other ends would press against the round protrusion of the external cover above the motor terminal plate making it possible to put some pressure on the 2 mm thick thermal pads while tightening the cower screws.
Click to expand...

So, I don't know for sure, but this is what I am thinking...Usually thermal grease has way high Wm/K thermal transfer rating than the pads...so I think when you use both, the thermal grease is usually touching whatever you are mounting, and then the thermal pad.... I think if the thermal grease has a higher Wm/K rating than the pad, it makes it not work as good because it is pulling the heat from the pad, if that makes sense.... but the way we have it configured...the thermal paste is on the outside of it all, away from what we are trying to cool, so it is continuing to pull heat out, and transferring it to the motor housing cover... either way it is needed to lube up the sides, and it definitely is working well, so that is what I know for sure...

BTW I use 12 Wm/K GP extreme thermal pads... and GP extreme thermal grease too...they both seem to have the highest Wm/K rating for a readily available retail/product.

Just more detail, since im slow with the pics...

qty: 4 - GP extreme 40x80mmx3mm - one gets cut longways in half, and wrapped around middle of motor, then the next two stay whole and wrap around the motor. the ends dont touch - they dont fully encapsulate the motor, which is fine, because one side of the motor does not touch the motor housing side - it faces the controller. this is also where I install a temperature sensor.. the last one gets cut into strips and lays around the circular edge in the motor housing cover.

qty: 2 - GP extreme 40x80x2mm - one lays flat in the middle of the circle in the motor housing cover, the other is chopped into strips, and stacked on the 3mm strips around the edge of the motor housing cover, to make it 5mm.

qty: 1 - gp extreme thermal grease - luuuuuuuuube up the sides (doesn't take much)

total cost - approx $120 + shipping!!! YIKES!!!

...but still makes it a new motor IMO... worth every penny...I am open to something else, but this is super quick and simple... and works very good...
Click to expand...

I have only found GP extreme 40x80x2mm on eBay, have someone found GP extreme 40x80mmx3mm ?
 
Thank you !

I found also yesterday, it was just out of stock when I checked first time:

Have now purchased:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/184723777391?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&var=692456899273&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649

https://www.ebay.com/itm/185049166468?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&var=692823792865&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649

Hope these will be a good solution.... ?
 
gordone said:
...

I found also yesterday, ....
Have now purchased:....
Click to expand...
OK, think about the solution in the wiki, were the pads are added too between motorflange and housing and not only between the stator and thin cover. The motorhousing has more mass.
 
I had a broken axle for the first time, although it was not me but my friend on the bike. He was only riding down a curb when it happened, even though I have been doing quite big drops and jumps occasionally with no problems. The axle broke on the chainring side lockring groove. I had put an extra bearing only on the non-drive side, so I need to add one on the drive side as well when I replace the axle. Luckily I have an extra motor.

My friend weight is close to 100kg, which is about 10kg more than me. So I guess the weight limit for the axle should be something like 90kg, I think casainho has mentioned similar amount. Although I'm quite sure all my hard riding before had already stressed the metal. Too bad my friend feels very fat now :( But I motivated him to lose some weight by promising to lend the bike again once he is 10kg lighter! :D
 
frenchie said:
what's the difference running a 8ah battery vs 12ah battery with these motors? in terms of the 48v one
thanks
Click to expand...

the 12AH battery will have half again more range all else being equal.
 
Hello...first time post; apologies in advance if this has been covered...my search lead some posts back in May that discussed torque sensor calibration and helped a little but what I am seeking to understand before I make any changes is the process for application of weights and how it applies to the calc sheet vs what you enter into the torque sensor calibration (I've got the 860C with firmware v1.1).

The calc sheet weight increments more or less match my current default firmware settings: 0-5-10-15-19-43-57 -110.

My current understanding is that while at the Technical configuration menu and observing the torque sensor ADC value in real time, I apply a 5kg weight to the pedal and then observe both the weight and ADC reading. In my case this read as 10kg and 182 ADC. Other readings were also off (10kg read as 16kg, 15 as 21 etc)

Am I supposed to change the weight reading in calc sheet from 5kg to 10kg and the ADC reading? Or do I leave the weight reading at 5 and just change the ADC reading? Same for question for actually inputting info into 860C.

Another way it could be done I guess is to apply weight to pedal until the 860C shows 5kg (10-15-19, etc) and then record the actual ADC reading. But given that it is supposed to respond to an actual weight this doesn't seem the correct approach.

It would be great if there was a video showing how to do this (did a search for that too on YouTube).

Anyway, sorry if I am asking such a basic question and your patience is appreciated.
 
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