Chalo
100 TW
ebike4healthandfitness said:
Custom winding count
Higher power capacity
Higher torque capacity
Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor
- Thread starter neptronix
- Start date
Custom winding count
Higher power capacity
Higher torque capacity
markz
100 TW
Not to mention 27H vs 35H, better heat dissipation, not sure if the Grintech's motor is more efficient then Leafs.
The Leafs 35H is better heat dissipation apple-to-apple, meaning if both using FF but its not really an apples to apples comparison for the different physical size, more metal, more surface area.
Besides all that, what is the feature rich aspect?
- A fancy connector?
- Extra wire padding for axle exit?
- Hub motor pre-lubed with FF?
- A FF hole?
I am looking at their website now
- More poles?
- Better magnets?
- Better/higher quality something or other (magnets, correctly grained laminations, better steel?)
https://ebikes.ca/rh212-std.html?___store=canadian&___from_store=international
One thing I know for sure is they slimmed the casing where the magnets attach. Might not be the RH212 motor specifically, but could be.
Did the curved magnets on the mxus hub motor even have any benefit, I never followed up on that.
We all know Grintech do their best to provide a quality product. But the RH212 and the Leaf 35H 1500W are two differently sized direct drive motors. Weight difference, RH is 6.58kg most likely accurate, Leafbike 7.18 kg
Leaf ships from China which is more expensive and in US $, I noticed their prices have gone up quite a bit.
https://www.leafbike.com/products/e-bike-hub-motor/48v-52v-1500w-rear-spoke-hub-motor-electric-bike-motor-spline-cassette-1110.html
RH ships from Vancouver Canada but cheaper as its in CDN $
All depends on what you want, you could also buy a $250 usd 1kw Yescomusa hub motor kit with cheesy controller and throttle, zip ties and a bag :lol: but who knows what their shipping is.
https://www.yescomusa.com/search?q=hub+motor
The Leafs 35H is better heat dissipation apple-to-apple, meaning if both using FF but its not really an apples to apples comparison for the different physical size, more metal, more surface area.
Besides all that, what is the feature rich aspect?
- A fancy connector?
- Extra wire padding for axle exit?
- Hub motor pre-lubed with FF?
- A FF hole?
I am looking at their website now
- More poles?
- Better magnets?
- Better/higher quality something or other (magnets, correctly grained laminations, better steel?)
https://ebikes.ca/rh212-std.html?___store=canadian&___from_store=international
One thing I know for sure is they slimmed the casing where the magnets attach. Might not be the RH212 motor specifically, but could be.
Did the curved magnets on the mxus hub motor even have any benefit, I never followed up on that.
We all know Grintech do their best to provide a quality product. But the RH212 and the Leaf 35H 1500W are two differently sized direct drive motors. Weight difference, RH is 6.58kg most likely accurate, Leafbike 7.18 kg
Leaf ships from China which is more expensive and in US $, I noticed their prices have gone up quite a bit.
https://www.leafbike.com/products/e-bike-hub-motor/48v-52v-1500w-rear-spoke-hub-motor-electric-bike-motor-spline-cassette-1110.html
RH ships from Vancouver Canada but cheaper as its in CDN $
All depends on what you want, you could also buy a $250 usd 1kw Yescomusa hub motor kit with cheesy controller and throttle, zip ties and a bag :lol: but who knows what their shipping is.
https://www.yescomusa.com/search?q=hub+motor
I didn't think you could get the RH212 in a 35mm wide stator? That would be a reason.ebike4healthandfitness said:
For the 30mm version yeah, the 212 makes much more sense. I have one on my recumbent 20" wheel and it really hauls at 3KW+.
Cheers
ebike4healthandfitness
10 kW
- Joined
- May 19, 2012
- Messages
- 675
markz said:
I expect the RH212 to have more surface area.
markz
100 TW
OK, but even the RH spoke flange is not uniform not like traditional hub motor designs for the flanges.
Whats the affect of saving that kind of weight on the rotational assembly without jeopardizing hub motor strength where its crucial at the spoke flange. I'm sure its been tested and is more then adequate.
https://ebikes.ca/rh212-std.html?___store=canadian&___from_store=international
Built in fins, look at the ridges.
The other cover plate with the cassette mount is smooth all the way to the cover plate bolts. Maybe in case someone wanted a very large cog on the rear cassette 36+T which means more speeds which is more width on the cassette? would a 13-55T cassette fit? Someone would know that. But this post got to far off the topic of the Leaf focusing in on the RH212 motor.
https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/cassettes goes up to xx-50 and xx-52. Damn thats some hill climbing ability on an ebike that only really needs 4 or 5 gears max. 40.1 is the dimensions on the cassette width for the RH but thats to the axle flats so you'd need a small gap, maybe say 40.0 but I'd want a wider gap then that. 40.1 Up to 11 speed - https://sheldonbrown.com/cribsheet-spacing.html
11-50 (11spd) - https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/box-two-mountain-bike-11-speed-cassette/rp-prod178806
no info on the diameter of the 50T gear, probably fills up the 229.5 diameter quite well. Be nice to get a in the wild picture of the bare cassette side cover plate.
https://ebikes.ca/amfile/file/download/file/96/product/962/
Whats the affect of saving that kind of weight on the rotational assembly without jeopardizing hub motor strength where its crucial at the spoke flange. I'm sure its been tested and is more then adequate.
https://ebikes.ca/rh212-std.html?___store=canadian&___from_store=international
Built in fins, look at the ridges.
The other cover plate with the cassette mount is smooth all the way to the cover plate bolts. Maybe in case someone wanted a very large cog on the rear cassette 36+T which means more speeds which is more width on the cassette? would a 13-55T cassette fit? Someone would know that. But this post got to far off the topic of the Leaf focusing in on the RH212 motor.
https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/cassettes goes up to xx-50 and xx-52. Damn thats some hill climbing ability on an ebike that only really needs 4 or 5 gears max. 40.1 is the dimensions on the cassette width for the RH but thats to the axle flats so you'd need a small gap, maybe say 40.0 but I'd want a wider gap then that. 40.1 Up to 11 speed - https://sheldonbrown.com/cribsheet-spacing.html
11-50 (11spd) - https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/box-two-mountain-bike-11-speed-cassette/rp-prod178806
no info on the diameter of the 50T gear, probably fills up the 229.5 diameter quite well. Be nice to get a in the wild picture of the bare cassette side cover plate.
https://ebikes.ca/amfile/file/download/file/96/product/962/
I can tell you from recent experience, the RH212 'finned' side cover is great...at collecting mud.
Mine seems to work well at the max I can throw at it with my Phaserunner. The Phaserunner overheats before the motor and the hottest I could get the motor was 75C throwing 3KW+ at it repeatedly.
So I would say it has some decent potential, but I am not comparing apples with apples here as the Leaf motor I ran was heavily modified in a 24" wheel with 3" tires. This RH212 is in a 20" wheel with 2" tires and only has FF, not all the other cooling mods my Leaf motor had.
Cheers
Mine seems to work well at the max I can throw at it with my Phaserunner. The Phaserunner overheats before the motor and the hottest I could get the motor was 75C throwing 3KW+ at it repeatedly.
So I would say it has some decent potential, but I am not comparing apples with apples here as the Leaf motor I ran was heavily modified in a 24" wheel with 3" tires. This RH212 is in a 20" wheel with 2" tires and only has FF, not all the other cooling mods my Leaf motor had.
Cheers
What tires were you running on the 24x3 setup? I'm deciding on tires when I relace the motor into a 24" rim. I ordered a couple to try, one off road 24x2.75" that looks like it will have decent offroad grip, and the other is a 24x3 "fat" tire, which is more of a plus sized, but less aggressive tread, like a fat tire. The latter is almost the same diameter as a 26" tire, so I won't get the modest performance gains of a smaller wheel, but could provide more comfort over the 2.4 tire I'm currently running.Cowardlyduck said:
ebike4healthandfitness said:
It is a taller but narrower stator, with a few extra poles, which is a design that favors torque production over efficiency.. like the magic pie ( even taller and narrower ), it's a very good choice for a large wheel, but not a great choice for a small one.
I'd put it closer to a 30mm wide 9C type design than a 35mm wide 9C design, in terms of power output.
Can you show your math? Seems like the diameter would need to be quite a bit larger to offset the stator/magnet width to even get to the same surface area.ebike4healthandfitness said:
Off topic: Is this too cheap for a one time, maybe two time wheel build?
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08SWG8MZ6/ref=sw_img_1?smid=&psc=1
I ran Duro Wildlife Leapord (aka Razorback). They are hard to find (not sure they are even still made) and were popular with mountain unicyclists.E-HP said:
They were a super soft aggressive off-road tire and only lasted a few thousand kms typically.
You're right about the 24x3 being closer to a 26" setup, but OTOH if I were running 26" wheels I would still want a 3" tire on there which would be closer to 27.5 actual, so it still helps in that regard.
Cheers
ZeroEm
1 MW
If you have room to store it! one wheel build will pay for it. Don't build many wheels myself, just been using a bike frame. It would be nice to have all the points at once and not be fiddling around.
There are some differences between the RH212 and the Leaf motors i.e. stator diameter and width for example BUT when you model them using the Grin Tech Motor Simulator the thrust lines lay on top of each other if you supply the same voltage/amperage so if you were riding, you wouldn't be able to tell which motor was installed :lol: .
The predicted temps will not be perfect but I'd feel comfortable using the RH212 to get a good idea of what to expect if I was running the Leaf.
In reality there are some significant differences like the wire size and the connectors...with the Leaf being capable of modifying and running higher amperage easier than the RH212...BUT anything is possible given enough time and money :thumb: .
If I was worried about running a LOT of power, I wouldn't use either one and I'd go to something bigger and better like the QS205 or something similar :wink: .
The predicted temps will not be perfect but I'd feel comfortable using the RH212 to get a good idea of what to expect if I was running the Leaf.
In reality there are some significant differences like the wire size and the connectors...with the Leaf being capable of modifying and running higher amperage easier than the RH212...BUT anything is possible given enough time and money :thumb: .
If I was worried about running a LOT of power, I wouldn't use either one and I'd go to something bigger and better like the QS205 or something similar :wink: .
Chalo
100 TW
E-HP said:
I built my first several wheels using a bike as a truing stand. That worked fine, but it would feel tedious to me now.
It's trickier to get wheel dish correct without a dishing tool than it is to build and true a wheel without a truing stand.
thundercamel
10 kW
I've assembled 8 or 9 wheels now, using an old front fork for front wheels, and bike frames for rear wheels.
The Toecutter
100 kW
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- Messages
- 1,312
Bullfrog said:
This suggests I'd be able to run the velo at top speed without ever overheating:
https://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.h..._0.06_0.007&mass=120&hp=200&axis=mph&kv=17.48
I don't know how accurate that is compared to the real world, but I'll have a 10K NTC in my Leafbike motor and a temperature limit programmed into the CA3 for insurance purposes. I think the motor will be barely adequate for my application, but still adequate.
The real danger in overeating the motor will likely be from repeated hard accelerations to top speed, such as on a race track or if being chased by police.
ebike4healthandfitness
10 kW
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- May 19, 2012
- Messages
- 675
Bullfrog said:
According to the OP of this thread (neptronix) his Leaf motor originally came with 18 guage phase wires which he replaced partially with 12 guage phase wires (i.e. he left a small portion of the 18 guage still intact buy replaced most of its original length with 12 guage.) Well guess what? RH212 comes from the factory with 12 guage phase wires.
With that mentioned, I noticed Leaf Bike is now claiming the 1500 hub motor comes with 3mm phase wires. Is that true? If it is true how much benefit does that give above 12 guage? Could it be of zero advantage because some other part of the system is a bottleneck long before a set of 12 guage phase wires would be a bottleneck?
Chalo
100 TW
ebike4healthandfitness said:
That would depend on the motor winding, wouldn't it? Because narrower conductive paths like PCB traces and FET legs are too short to impose much overall resistance.
Bottom line is, Leaf motors are made to order in whatever winding you request, and whichever other motor you want to compare is not. That way, you get to choose how to optimize your system. Or not.
ebike4healthandfitness said:
Sounds like a good motor. Maybe you could start a new thread to discuss its merits like Neptronix did with the Leaf? If you want to raise awareness, it's not going to happen buried in an 80 page Leaf thread.
EDIT: Oh wait, sorry, I just noticed you tried something like that and nobody cared. I see you got one response. Never mind.
Well, let me put it this way.
The RH212 has noticeably lower peak efficiency than the leaf and can't achieve the same power density relative to it's size because of the stator dimensions. The magic pie has this same problem but worse. Neither are motors i'd buy if i was interested in peak efficiency and energy density.
But if you were putting a hub motor in a 29" wheel, then i'd say you should absolutely go with a magic pie or RH212 because of the extra torque density that you need from a motor.
There's a big correlation in hub motors with 'square shaped-ness' of the stator and efficiency, and that has to do with how much extra end turn losses there are ( extra copper on the end of the stator that isn't doing much useful work ). The more poles, the taller the stator, the more end-turn losses you have ( compared to a totally square, low pole count motor ), and that will always show up in a dyno graph as a loss of continuous power and peak efficiency.
Most of the world's most efficient and power-dense motors tend to be roughly square shaped.
You might complain about the leaf's wimpy phase wires but it's the copper wrapped around the stator that is responsible for >90% of a motor's 'power bus'. After cutting my wires, and replacing most of their length with girthy copper ( meaning that i only had a few inches of restrictive wire ), i was pushing 6kw regularly and never noticing extra heat in the thinner wire section.
If the leafmotor came with this phase leads from the factory, it'd be good for an additional 1-50w power at best VS us fixing the problem after the fact. Not a deal breaker for me. Also, absolutely not a main deal-maker for any motor, unless the internal wiring is horrifically undersized.
The RH212 has noticeably lower peak efficiency than the leaf and can't achieve the same power density relative to it's size because of the stator dimensions. The magic pie has this same problem but worse. Neither are motors i'd buy if i was interested in peak efficiency and energy density.
But if you were putting a hub motor in a 29" wheel, then i'd say you should absolutely go with a magic pie or RH212 because of the extra torque density that you need from a motor.
There's a big correlation in hub motors with 'square shaped-ness' of the stator and efficiency, and that has to do with how much extra end turn losses there are ( extra copper on the end of the stator that isn't doing much useful work ). The more poles, the taller the stator, the more end-turn losses you have ( compared to a totally square, low pole count motor ), and that will always show up in a dyno graph as a loss of continuous power and peak efficiency.
Most of the world's most efficient and power-dense motors tend to be roughly square shaped.
You might complain about the leaf's wimpy phase wires but it's the copper wrapped around the stator that is responsible for >90% of a motor's 'power bus'. After cutting my wires, and replacing most of their length with girthy copper ( meaning that i only had a few inches of restrictive wire ), i was pushing 6kw regularly and never noticing extra heat in the thinner wire section.
If the leafmotor came with this phase leads from the factory, it'd be good for an additional 1-50w power at best VS us fixing the problem after the fact. Not a deal breaker for me. Also, absolutely not a main deal-maker for any motor, unless the internal wiring is horrifically undersized.
A huge limiting factor for the 212 is the L1019 connector which will severely limit the input amperage if you wanted to run high power but besides that...everything below still holds :wink: . The L1019 big pins (phase current) are rated for 30A...although they can handle a lot more than that for very short periods of time, I wouldn't suggest much over 30A steady state.
The run below is a Leaf on the left and a 212 on the right...efficiency is 85% vs 84.3% so .7% different...at the top speed. At speeds below ~28 mph, the 212 has a higher efficiency but again it is a very small difference and IMO neither is significant. Yes the peak efficiency is a little more different (1.4% advantage Leaf) but the only way you are going to get to those speeds and "peak" efficiencies is going down hill and then you might be backing off the throttle which would make it irrelevant. The torque outputs are the blue lines...again very little difference but a slight edge to the 212.
Although I pointed out the very small differences above...IMO the torque and efficiency for both motors are, for all practical purposes, identical...so it would come down to cost and whether you need a specific winding/Kv.
Everything in the run was identical except the Kv of the Leaf was adjusted to get equal top speeds and since you can order a custom winding with the Leaf, I figured that wasn't too much of a stretch.
The Leaf and the 212 are both good motors they just have slightly different designs to get to you to the same point/output i.e. the Leaf has a wider stator where the 212 has a larger diameter stator. Pole count I am not sure about but somebody said the 212 has a couple more poles...which can be good and bad :lol: .
The run below is a Leaf on the left and a 212 on the right...efficiency is 85% vs 84.3% so .7% different...at the top speed. At speeds below ~28 mph, the 212 has a higher efficiency but again it is a very small difference and IMO neither is significant. Yes the peak efficiency is a little more different (1.4% advantage Leaf) but the only way you are going to get to those speeds and "peak" efficiencies is going down hill and then you might be backing off the throttle which would make it irrelevant. The torque outputs are the blue lines...again very little difference but a slight edge to the 212.
Although I pointed out the very small differences above...IMO the torque and efficiency for both motors are, for all practical purposes, identical...so it would come down to cost and whether you need a specific winding/Kv.
Everything in the run was identical except the Kv of the Leaf was adjusted to get equal top speeds and since you can order a custom winding with the Leaf, I figured that wasn't too much of a stretch.
The Leaf and the 212 are both good motors they just have slightly different designs to get to you to the same point/output i.e. the Leaf has a wider stator where the 212 has a larger diameter stator. Pole count I am not sure about but somebody said the 212 has a couple more poles...which can be good and bad :lol: .
By the way, that 16ah battery in the simulator has 3v of voltage drop on that 25A load. that's a very wimpy battery. Select one with much bigger capacity and a lot less resistance, because this is reducing the efficiency of both motors and thus clouding the picture.
Also, try the test on a 72v battery with 0.01 mOhms resistance and a 80A batt / 250A phase. Then you will really see the differences of both motors. It's much larger than you think it is.
Also, try the test on a 72v battery with 0.01 mOhms resistance and a 80A batt / 250A phase. Then you will really see the differences of both motors. It's much larger than you think it is.
neptronix said:
The 212 can't handle that kind of amperage with the L1019 connector so the Leaf wins without even trying it :lol: .
My thought is the 212 works best for somebody just starting out that wants a plug and play set up. For most of us, the Leaf is the way to go because we can make it into what we want
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