New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Recently got a kit from Eco cycles, have maybe 100 miles on it. Got the brass gear pre-installed as that seemed to be the major issue. Pretty sure I'm already over heating the thing, but that and many other issues are not really preventing me from using the motor.

One odd issue I can't seem to find any reference to while searching this massive thread, I'm having lots of noise while NOT under power. While running it's a pretty consistent buzzing, as soon as you come off power it sounds like a coffee can full of bolts. At first I thought it was the chain jumping off, have the narrow wide ring now and pretty sure it's not that.

Certainly seems like it's the large clutch bearing disengaging, I've never heard a one way bearing make noise like that though. I pulled the spider to change the chainring, only thing wrong was a stripped bolt straight from Eco cycles. Nothing else seemed to be exploding so I put it back together. I ordered all the bearings so I can rebuild it if I have to, but also need to get around on the bike.

Eco cycles has been pretty much useless with support so any help would be appreciated.
 
wesmamyke said:
.....
.seems like it's the large clutch bearing disengaging, I've never heard a one way bearing make noise like that though. ....
That sprag clutch is not of high quality, but should last more than 100 miles. You see a lot of sideplay in the spider?
You can prevent the wear of it a bit with inserting an extra spindle bearing (waterproof) inside the spider, instead of the rubber seal. (On the other side of the spindle you can add a bearing too behind the rubber seal)
But in this case I think even these two extra bearings couldn't help you.
 
Elinx said:
Malloot said:
.... What can I do to get the torque sensor working again? Not running the open-source FW,.....
If you have a vlcd5 with stock FW, you can check with the hidden menu the TE and TE1 values of the torque sensor for zero and max weight. Check this first to determine if the torque sensor is the cause.
When you see different values it will be another sensor (PAS or speed)
Press power and i buttons simultaneousfor 10 seconds under ODO menu, then only press to show “ODO”, “TRIP”, “AVG”, “TIME”, “TE”and “TE1”respectively.

Does not work.
Display turns off.
What am I doing wrong?
 
Akita said:
.....

Does not work.
Display turns off.
What am I doing wrong?
If that is the case, it looks that you press the power only.
This works only with stock firmware. Not with OSF

There are different Vlcd5 manuals for different controllers
You have quoted the manual of Enerpower, which does sell the new (not flashable) controller only. I am not sure if that new stock FW can show TE values too.

For the old controller I read here:
"To show the hidden settings, you should press these two buttons (power and i) simultaneously for 3 seconds on the startup screen, then quick press the i button 4 times, you will then see the first setting. If you leave the setting menu for a few seconds, the LCD will exit the setting mode."
 
Akita said:
Press power and i buttons simultaneousfor 10 seconds under ODO menu, then only press to show “ODO”, “TRIP”, “AVG”, “TIME”, “TE”and “TE1”respectively.

Does not work.
Display turns off.
What am I doing wrong?

Try the alternate procedure I described in this post (at the end): https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=79788&p=1671199#p1671199
 
blowhole said:
Akita said:
Press power and i buttons simultaneousfor 10 seconds under ODO menu, then only press to show “ODO”, “TRIP”, “AVG”, “TIME”, “TE”and “TE1”respectively.

Does not work.
Display turns off.
What am I doing wrong?

Try the alternate procedure I described in this post (at the end): https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=79788&p=1671199#p1671199
Thanks!
Works perfectly.
TE = 85 and TE1 = 0
 
Akita said:
....
TE = 85 and TE1 = 0
Under which conditions?
imho they should be equal with no load, while TE1 should be go higher with load on the pedals
This is with old controller, but don't know if this is also for new (not flashable) controller
 
Elinx said:
Akita said:
....
TE = 85 and TE1 = 0
Under which conditions?
imho they should be equal with no load, while TE1 should be go higher with load on the pedals
This is with old controller, but don't know if this is also for new (not flashable) controller
No pressure on the pedal.
 
Akita said:
Elinx said:
Akita said:
....
TE = 85 and TE1 = 0
Under which conditions?
imho they should be equal with no load, while TE1 should be go higher with load on the pedals
This is with old controller, but don't know if this is also for new (not flashable) controller
No pressure on the pedal.
I have a V2 control unit.
 
Akita said:
....
No pressure on the pedal.
....
I have a V2 control unit.
I'm curious what happens with load on the pedal, because V2 look to behave different from V1 for the TE/TE1 values.
If the TE zero value (no load) already is equalized with TE1 it explains the 0 value for it, but will rise with some load.
 
Elinx said:
Akita said:
....
No pressure on the pedal.
....
I have a V2 control unit.
I'm curious what happens with load on the pedal, because V2 look to behave different from V1 for the TE/TE1 values.
If the TE zero value (no load) already is equalized with TE1 it explains the 0 value for it, but will rise with some load.
Under load, TE1 = 0.
The value does not change.
 
Akita said:
...
Under load, TE1 = 0.
The value does not change.
This behaviour is not the same as with old v1 controller.
If TE also doesn't change under load, there is no option to check the torquesensor with vlcd5 for the new controller.

Because it looks there is a different behaviour, it could be possible to find out whether some has an old or new controller inside the Tsdz2 and don't need a multimeter to measure the speedconnector.
 
Elinx said:
Akita said:
...
Under load, TE1 = 0.
The value does not change.
This behaviour is not the same as with old v1 controller.
If TE also doesn't change under load, there is no option to check the torquesensor with vlcd5 for the new controller.

Because it looks there is a different behaviour, it could be possible to find out whether some has an old or new controller inside the Tsdz2 and don't need a multimeter to measure the speedconnector.
No pedal force TE = 85.
With pedal force, TE increases.
Previously, only TE was for pedal force control.
 
Akita said:
....With pedal force, TE increases....
In that case the conclusion I would give is that it is possible to determine if it is an old or new controller version by checking TE/TE1 values with VLCD5 hidden settings.
 
It’s hard to describe but I think that the main helical gear shaft is stripped or damaged because the blue gear no longer sits firmly in it. I’ve seen a replacement blue gear video where the helical gear comes out easily. It’s stuck on the main gear side not on the motor side. Is there a trick to removing it?
 
I’m trying to remove this part and it sticks on the main gear side not in the electrical motor side. Is there a trick to pulling it out?
 

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rosenbaaron said:
I’m trying to remove this part and it sticks on the main gear side not in the electrical motor side. Is there a trick to pulling it out?

After you have removed the lockring, tapping the shaft end with a hammer from the blue gear side should work.
 
rosenbaaron said:
Is the lock ring that little black plastic clip at the base in the picture?

Not plastic, it is steel and it sits in a groove in the shaft, so definitely the reason for it being stuck if you didn't remove it.
 
wesmamyke said:
Recently got a kit from Eco cycles, have maybe 100 miles on it. Got the brass gear pre-installed as that seemed to be the major issue. Pretty sure I'm already over heating the thing, but that and many other issues are not really preventing me from using the motor.

One odd issue I can't seem to find any reference to while searching this massive thread, I'm having lots of noise while NOT under power. While running it's a pretty consistent buzzing, as soon as you come off power it sounds like a coffee can full of bolts. At first I thought it was the chain jumping off, have the narrow wide ring now and pretty sure it's not that.

Certainly seems like it's the large clutch bearing disengaging, I've never heard a one way bearing make noise like that though. I pulled the spider to change the chainring, only thing wrong was a stripped bolt straight from Eco cycles. Nothing else seemed to be exploding so I put it back together. I ordered all the bearings so I can rebuild it if I have to, but also need to get around on the bike.

Eco cycles has been pretty much useless with support so any help would be appreciated.

Let me first say that I got 12k miles off of my first tsdz2 kit that I bought from Eco-Ebikes, so my product did last. I used it as a daily commuter for almost two years. I had to replace the original motor at around 6k miles once because of something that was partially my own fault, and I chose to replace the kit when I burned out the replacement motor 6k miles later. These are the issues I experienced, none of them was a "deal" killer, but it was far from ideal. The support was not great, and I was constantly being told the issues in number 1 was related to a magnet.

1. Every time I would keep the charger past the time it was charged my bike would not provide power for 10 to 15 minutes during the start of my ride. It was very inconvenient when I was trying to ride home. After trial and error, I found if I under-charged it or immediately removed the charger that my bike would provide power immediately. I replaced the motor, the power supply, I even had several different displays (SW102, 800C), thatI could repeat it on each display. This makes me think that it was related to the controller, the only part I didn't replace.

2. I eventually replaced my SW102 display with a C5, and the battery would not go past 80% when fully charged. Funny enough, the issue from number 1 went away, and overcharging never became an issue again. When I asked support told me that this was normal because of battery degradation. I explained to them that when my iPhone gets older than a year or two it still charges to 100% despite degradation.

3. The white pin that connects the motor to the controller had a lot of glue on it, that they said was factory installed. I was never able to easily pull it apart as you see in the blue gear replacement videos on youtube. When I was servicing my blue gear and adding more grease, I would just pull the motor out and rest it on something with the white pin still connected and service my blue gear. This was ok until the motor fell and the tiny cables broke apart from it. I bring this up because this was my fault, and I learned that you could use a hair drier to loosen it up and pulled it apart. I replaced the motor with one I found on PSWPower (a great site with great service BTW). The bike ran fine for another 6k mile.

After the second motor overheated and demagnetized itself, I decided to just purchase a new kit from Eonarau. It was a 48V with a C5 display. I still have my original battery, purchased from Eco-EBIKE. Since then problems 1,2, and 3 have completely gone away, I even successfully tested my older 800C and C5 display, and those work perfectly well. This leaves me to deduce that it was something wrong with the controller in the original kit that they sold me. I can even remove the little white clip when servicing the blue gear.

In the future, I think I would only order bare components from them if I needed them in a hurry and it was in stock in the US. All other things I will order from PSWPower.
 
casainho said:
anszom said:
casainho said:
Yes, the SW102 is not supported anymore. The only display is this OpenSource one: https://opensourceebike.github.io/

I think that's going to be a problem for many would-be users. Re-programming an off-the-shelf display is one thing, but building one from scratch is likely going to be a problem for many. That is, unless you are planning to sell ready-to-use display kits?
You are correct, this is not for would-be users. This is for me and advanced users alike, this is for my current ebikes (5 ebikes on my family) + for my 3 electric scooters and for my futures devices, who knows, maybe an electric motorcyle??

I am not planning to sell this devices. But I wish shops like Electrify Bike or Eco Cycles, that are selling TSDZ2 motor and displays with our OpenSource firmware, could decide to produce and sell this display to the users, and they could even customize the display enclosure with their brand. My wish is that production of this EBike technology could be dispersed and done more locally and not only on China or German - but keeping to be OpenSource, with shared OpenSource knowledge and not proprietary and very expensive like German Bosch for instance.

Anyway, the display is very easy in the DIY perspective and I am trying to improving the building and testing documentation as possible.

I have not been on ES for quite some time. Good to see these threads still going, and of course, your (and others) continued work with the TSDZ2! The wireless display seems very nice. I will try to make one for myself very soon for my own use, but also to evaluate production... We are definitely interested in producing the wireless display, it's a no brainer if you ask me... I am going to take a deep dive into the more recent discussion and information related to your project and see if we can get something going...
 
ilu said:
rosenbaaron said:
Is the lock ring that little black plastic clip at the base in the picture?

Not plastic, it is steel and it sits in a groove in the shaft, so definitely the reason for it being stuck if you didn't remove it.

How do you remove the clip, do I need a special tool?
 
wesmamyke said:
Recently got a kit from Eco cycles, have maybe 100 miles on it. Got the brass gear pre-installed as that seemed to be the major issue. Pretty sure I'm already over heating the thing, but that and many other issues are not really preventing me from using the motor.

One odd issue I can't seem to find any reference to while searching this massive thread, I'm having lots of noise while NOT under power. While running it's a pretty consistent buzzing, as soon as you come off power it sounds like a coffee can full of bolts. At first I thought it was the chain jumping off, have the narrow wide ring now and pretty sure it's not that.

Certainly seems like it's the large clutch bearing disengaging, I've never heard a one way bearing make noise like that though. I pulled the spider to change the chainring, only thing wrong was a stripped bolt straight from Eco cycles. Nothing else seemed to be exploding so I put it back together. I ordered all the bearings so I can rebuild it if I have to, but also need to get around on the bike.

Eco cycles has been pretty much useless with support so any help would be appreciated.

David with Eco Cycles here. Sorry to hear our support was useless for you... definitely not the typical way it goes, but that doesn't mean much if your experience was negative. I don't recall any recent support issues with what you are describing, and I do handle most support (especially for the TSDZ2)... was this very recent? I will gladly take a look and (re)evalute the support case if you reach back out to us.

To address what I can here, from what you have said ~ I can say that metal gears do definitely tend to start out louder, and are louder in general, but shouldn't quite be sounding like a coffee can full of bolts... although they do make a bit of noise/rattle, it's hard to tell between that and the buzzing sound you mention, as everyone's experience and expectations are relative. The motors definitely do all make more noise than a BBS mid drive in general even without a metal gear - but I will definitely take a look/listen and make it right if something is off/faulty. Even if it isn't faulty, we routinely will discuss alternative options. For some people, the metal gears are just too loud, period... and if that is the case as opposed to something being faulty/defective, swapping back for a plastic and keeping an extra spare on hand is an option that we can offer... About the large/main gear/clutch, I can definitely take a look/listen to that as well, and go through some steps to isolate the issue... Again I don't recall anything of this nature being mentioned anytime recently so I hope our initial correspondence didn't turn you off to even trying to reach out... I know that we have seen main gear/clutches go early before, so it's definitely possible although typically the pedals would slip when this happens... while we can't stop a fluke defective product from going bad, we absolutely would replace one for no charge if it went bad on a new motor like that...

We actually do a pretty thorough quality control check/test after any install/mod and directly before shipping the complete motor kit, and 99%+ of the time everything is smooth on the user end... but unfortunately it is inevitable that some issues will pop up... such as a bad gear, or a missed bolt that had stripped... It's possible that an employee here did it if we installed your narrow wide chain ring, but we also get a fair share of random things like stripped bolts straight from the factory, so that may of been the case if it was still the stock 42T/guard... either way if we sent it, we missed that, so that's on us. FYI we will immediately send out replacement hardware upon request if we are notified of anything of this nature. We do our best to catch everything, sometimes things go back or slip through the cracks and when an issue does arise, all we can do is our best to address/fix it.
 
eyebyesickle said:
casainho said:
anszom said:
casainho said:
Yes, the SW102 is not supported anymore. The only display is this OpenSource one: https://opensourceebike.github.io/

I think that's going to be a problem for many would-be users. Re-programming an off-the-shelf display is one thing, but building one from scratch is likely going to be a problem for many. That is, unless you are planning to sell ready-to-use display kits?
You are correct, this is not for would-be users. This is for me and advanced users alike, this is for my current ebikes (5 ebikes on my family) + for my 3 electric scooters and for my futures devices, who knows, maybe an electric motorcyle??

I am not planning to sell this devices. But I wish shops like Electrify Bike or Eco Cycles, that are selling TSDZ2 motor and displays with our OpenSource firmware, could decide to produce and sell this display to the users, and they could even customize the display enclosure with their brand. My wish is that production of this EBike technology could be dispersed and done more locally and not only on China or German - but keeping to be OpenSource, with shared OpenSource knowledge and not proprietary and very expensive like German Bosch for instance.

Anyway, the display is very easy in the DIY perspective and I am trying to improving the building and testing documentation as possible.

I have not been on ES for quite some time. Good to see these threads still going, and of course, your (and others) continued work with the TSDZ2! The wireless display seems very nice. I will try to make one for myself very soon for my own use, but also to evaluate production... We are definitely interested in producing the wireless display, it's a no brainer if you ask me... I am going to take a deep dive into the more recent discussion and information related to your project and see if we can get something going...
I wrote that message in November. Since then I maintain my opinion that building our own display is a good investment. I am being using it on my TSDZ2 EBikes without any issue and I am still planning to use it on my M365 EScooter.

Note that I mostly stopped the development of the firmware for it, as the firmware is mostly the SW102 firmware I had. There is no Bluetooth support because there is no mobile app developed or interest from my side. Current firmware works well but I would say it is mostly basic version of SW102 firmware.

This display has a lot of potential as it is very simple hardware, easy to understand, easy to build. And SW102 is popular, so we can´t go wrong with this display.

We are now developing the same idea of simple DIY motor controller with room for custom electronics expansion header -- the area should not be much bigger than TSDZ2 controller but it will have higher thickness, it will not fit inside TSDZ2 case.... :-( :


TSDZ2 motor controller is really small!!
Our first prototype at top, M365 EScooter controller at middle and TSDZ2 controller at bottom:
 
rosenbaaron said:
ilu said:
rosenbaaron said:
Is the lock ring that little black plastic clip at the base in the picture?

Not plastic, it is steel and it sits in a groove in the shaft, so definitely the reason for it being stuck if you didn't remove it.

How do you remove the clip, do I need a special tool?

It is easiest to use 'circlip pliers' as below, note that there are different types for internal and external circlips. It's possible to remove a small circlip like this with small needle nose pliers or something, but it's quite troublesome as regular pliers work "the wrong way" and the points might not be small enough for the holes.
 

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