Running a house on an e-motorcycle battery?

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Re: Running a house on an e-motorcycle battery?

Post by goatman » Apr 02 2021 10:42pm

John and Cecil wrote:
Apr 02 2021 12:29pm
goatman wrote:
Mar 31 2021 10:30pm
how much do you pay for city water there?
Hmm. I think I just figured out why you asked this question. :) I searched online and I found a prototype of a small turbine that produces electricity from pressurized tap water. I wonder how many gallons of pressurized tap water it takes to produce 1 kwh of electricity? They do not have an answer for that question on their website. Perhaps it can be tweaked so that it makes even more power by reducing the water pressure even more, and a large tank can be slowly filled all night up on a hill above the house and then the house can use that water the next day by means of a gravity feed.
:D bring the link to the website so we can see what it can do

i dont know how your country does its water supply systems but here the city pressure is anywhere from 80psi to 100 psi
the house water main supply from the city is 3/4"
as soon as the pipe enters the house theres a shut-off valve and then a pressure reducing valve to bring the pressure down to around 60 psi.
if you tapped into the house water main in between the pressure reducing valve and main shut off valve with a tee to power a micro hydro. you could turn it off and on with a ball valve whenever you want electricity

find out city water pressure, see the size of pipe feeding your house and do some math
house main will do 1000 watts easy

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Re: Running a house on an e-motorcycle battery?

Post by john61ct » Apr 02 2021 10:50pm

If there is metered water, even if it's "included" in the rent, the landlord will crack down fast

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Re: Running a house on an e-motorcycle battery?

Post by John and Cecil » Apr 03 2021 3:05am

john61ct wrote:
Apr 02 2021 10:50pm
If there is metered water, even if it's "included" in the rent, the landlord will crack down fast
No, I have no intention of causing my landlord and his wonderful family expense so I can reduce my electricity usage, I would not sleep so well at night if I did things such as this. If my landlord was a corrupt corporation the answer would not be the same though. :) I am not doing any of these things now in my temporary rental. I am buying a home in the near future and I will then be setting up shop there.

I think you misunderstood about the batteries too. The batteries I intend to use with the motorcycle will be the "mothership batteries". Example: motorcycle uses 2x 48v 80ah batteries possibly making 96v 80ah. I will not be charging the batteries when they are connected to the motorcycle using converted ac current. When I am not riding the motorcycle (which is 98% of the time) the batteries will be connected to the solar array (48v 160ah) to power the house and charge from the solar array. When I disconnect the batteries from the house I will connect a small 48v 20ah battery for the house to use temporarily until I return a couple hours later. Batteries will be charged directly from the solar panels, whether it is the 2x 48v 80ah batteries or the 1x 48v 20ah battery. When the larger batteries are being used the smaller battery will not be used (or it will be used occasionally in a boat or on an ebike). Perhaps on occasion I might charge or top off the 48v 20ah battery using a wall outlet ac charger, but this will be the exception and not the rule.

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Re: Running a house on an e-motorcycle battery?

Post by John and Cecil » Apr 03 2021 3:35am

goatman wrote:
Apr 02 2021 10:42pm
:D bring the link to the website so we can see what it can do

i dont know how your country does its water supply systems but here the city pressure is anywhere from 80psi to 100 psi
the house water main supply from the city is 3/4"
as soon as the pipe enters the house theres a shut-off valve and then a pressure reducing valve to bring the pressure down to around 60 psi.
if you tapped into the house water main in between the pressure reducing valve and main shut off valve with a tee to power a micro hydro. you could turn it off and on with a ball valve whenever you want electricity

find out city water pressure, see the size of pipe feeding your house and do some math
house main will do 1000 watts easy
This is a link to the the one that I found. I think it is still in product development.

http://www.vorticaltech.com/index.html

I think the water pressure is similar here as to the USA, perhaps it is a little lower. I know the bathtub fills at a rate of 3gpm but I did not measure water pressure.

I am rethinking wind turbines. Solar panels are relatively cheap and thus I am not concerned too much with daytime power generation. It is at night when the problems arise with a need for expensive batteries. But some of those nights may have some wind, and night time power needs can be low (chest fridge consumes less than 10w/hour, led cob efficiency can be 150-200 lumens a watt, you don't use much power when sleeping for 8 hours, etc).

Instead of thinking high power wind generation I would like low power generation but be able to generate this power in a light breeze. There are vertical blade wind turbines that will supposedly start generating power in winds as low as 5mph or so. Perhaps a few mini vertical turbines designed to generate 100w/hr of electricity in a 5mph breeze would be enough to reduce a need for a battery at night.

Design a solar array based on a minimum 10% output for winter to provide enough energy to run a house set up for winter efficiency. Into that system I would incorporate a wind turbine system designed to create minimal power in a light breeze. Should at times I require more power at night a water turbine can be used to fill a large tank with water and generate power from that water pressure, then during the day a pump can be used to use that water in the house (when the panels are humming with energy). As an emergency a small gas generator can be used for a backup.

The one question that I do not know is, will there be days that solar panels will produce less than 10% (or possibly zero) electricity. If so I am guessing those days will be stormy, so perhaps the wind turbines and possibly roof leader turbines may be able to offset this temporary loss of power.
Last edited by John and Cecil on Apr 03 2021 3:46am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Running a house on an e-motorcycle battery?

Post by goatman » Apr 03 2021 9:40am

this guy shows how to produce 5000 watts/day for about $50

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibCu0PxIZA4

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Re: Running a house on an e-motorcycle battery?

Post by John and Cecil » Apr 03 2021 4:50pm

goatman wrote:
Apr 03 2021 9:40am
this guy shows how to produce 5000 watts/day for about $50

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibCu0PxIZA4
Well that is something to consider for a property with a lot of running water. He has a wind turbine in the video too. I like the idea of making an inexpensive homemade wind turbine with vertical blades using a hoverboard wheel as the generator. If I was still in the US I could probably find all sorts of used parts, we don't really have a craigslist alternative here.

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Re: Running a house on an e-motorcycle battery?

Post by john61ct » Apr 03 2021 7:51pm

Again, I understand your intention about the batteries

I am just maintaining that the battery suitable for the moto will be too small for the house.

Or, the battery you will need for the house, will be too big and heavy for a moto.

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Re: Running a house on an e-motorcycle battery?

Post by John and Cecil » Apr 04 2021 4:08am

john61ct wrote:
Apr 03 2021 7:51pm
Again, I understand your intention about the batteries

I am just maintaining that the battery suitable for the moto will be too small for the house.

Or, the battery you will need for the house, will be too big and heavy for a moto.
Really? Some motorcycle batteries have 20kwh of capacity and weigh close to 200lbs. That is too light and not enough power capacity for a home? There are several companies designing electronics so you can just plug into the charge port of the vehicle and run your home off these vehicles, so obviously the battery capacity is not the issue. Even a moderately sized motorcycle has a motor that can draw 10kw of power for extended periods of time, which is more than enough to power an efficiently run home with one occupant and no huge power draw appliances (nothing over 1kwh).

And if I build a motorcycle using 48v lithium batteries designed to be used for off grid homes will they be magically rendered useless for the home once I take a short ride around the block on them?

And for like the 8th time, I don't even need to run the house on the battery at night, I can just switch the grid power back on if necessary. Thus there really is no need for large battery storage capacity. I appreciate your input but you are not helping me here.

You already admitted that it can be done with "rare and expensive electronics" after I posted a link, thus the issue is not with the size or weight of the battery. Eventually these things will not be so rare and expensive either. In 1975 solar panels cost over $100 a watt, $30 in 1980, $15 in 1985, and today they cost less than 40 cents a watt. These rare and expensive electronics may be coming down in price quickly, and especially now considering the apocalyptic situation in California (massive wildfires burned 7,000 square miles in 2020 )and that the utility company is now required to cut power for extended periods of time because of their liability for downed power lines from the wind causing fires. People will need to be running their homes with their ev vehicles during extended power outages, this is not a question of "if" but rather "when". And these rare and expensive electronics are not expensive to make, if it costs $5,000 today it m only cost $500 in a few years. They are only expensive because there are not enough manufacturers competing with one another.

Thanks again for all your help but I am not looking for people's input on why they believe this cannot be done. I am looking for out of the box thinkers to suggest how it can be done. Only god knows everything, so believing that something cannot be done does not actually mean that it cannot be done. :) Anyway have a nice Easter.

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Re: Running a house on an e-motorcycle battery?

Post by marka-ee » Apr 04 2021 5:28am

Hello John. I have similar laws here, they make it expensive to connect to the grid. I just do it on a small scale :) . I have a cheap China 500watt grid tie inverter that I have hooked up to 8 120 watt panels. It's hits 500 watts when the sunshine is good. You have to realize that the panel ratings are hard to actually get. Assume about 50% of what the sticker says. So I have 3 phase power from the grid and this little unit plugs into one phase obviously. My utility meter is designed not to run backwards so it just gets stuck and bounces around when I have extra power. I would love to figure out a low cost system that could absorb the extra energy that I am just gifting to the utility company when the meter is stopped. I have a bunch of cells from an old EV car that I could use to charge. There are no low cost 'power wall' controllers that I know of, unfortunately . I could build something myself, detecting when the meter wants to spin backwards and diverting some of the DC power to charge a battery bank. It's tricky. I have some of the cells set up in a 3s4p pack that sits on a shelf ready to power a 12 volt sine wave inverter in case of power outage. I know 12volt is non optimal, but I found the inverter cheap at a swap meet so I hooked it up. The missing piece is really a cheap 'power wall' controller that properly manages the energy flow. On the net people are fast an loose with the term 'power wall' and usually it means hooking up a battery to an inverter with a non-smart charger. That is not a 'power wall' in my book. Anyhow in Europe you can find salvaged cells from EV cars. And you can plug in a mini grid tie inverter to the wall without telling anyone. Mine does the shutdown when there is no grid power so it won't kill a line man, but it's not all certified and stuff. It does work however. These little inverters are less that $100.

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Re: Running a house on an e-motorcycle battery?

Post by John and Cecil » Apr 04 2021 6:39am

I have a working theory on a possible workaround to bypass the expensive and rare electronics. Rather than purchasing expensive circuitry, etc to switch from grid to solar/wind power why not do something like this. First pick up enough golf cart (or lithium ion batteries if expenses allow), but just enough to supply enough amperage so you don't draw more than the batteries are rated to supply anytime during the day and also have enough supply for at a minimum of at least a few hours. For simplicity lets consider a 2kwh (48v/42amp) battery that can supply a sustained 8kw per hr with quality lithium cells.

Rather than pay extorsion prices for some smart switch why not wire up another breaker box to the house, only this would be a very simple one with only one breaker switch. Disconnect the house breaker box from the grid and have the electric company supply power to that new one instead. That new breaker box will have only one outlet, and that will be used to supply grid electricity to a high powered battery smart charger that will only turn on when the battery gets too low. I understand that it will not be as efficient when it is converted to dc and then back to ac household current again but it seems plausible that only 20-30% might be lost.

Now have the solar array hooked up to a voltage regulator, etc and plugged into the battery and the battery would connect to a dc/ac converter to make the 220v household current, and that would be connected directly to the original house breaker box and it will run the entire house.

During the day the solar panels will be charging the battery. Should battery capacity fall too low (lets say 40% capacity) then the smart charger will kick on and help charge the battery from the grid as well as from the solar array. No power goes backwards through a battery charger as far as I know, so it will take the place of the rare and expensive switch that I have been looking for (even though I will only have about 70% efficiency when using grid power).

I think it would be good if there was a way to power some things directly from the solar panels and wind turbines and bypass the battery entirely. This probably falls into the rare and expensive circuitry again. How about we bypass this with some good old fashioned switches. First assume I have 10 solar panels on the roof. Now lets assume that these panels have been modified with a y-splitter (or switched y splitter) so they can supply power to 2 separate systems. All 10 will have a connection to the house battery on the first y connection, and the secondary connections can be used to power things like a secondary electric water heater or to directly charge an electric vehicle.

Thus in place of a smart switch I can allocate how many solar panels I wish to use for the house, how many to make hot water, how many to charge an electric motorcycle, etc (and the house will have the grid connected charger as a failsafe to supply more power to the house when necessary). I would prefer a smart switch that would allocate the excess solar panel power to different systems but in absence of that manual switches might work.

Examples:

I wake up early and it is going to be a bright sunny summer day. I go out to the garage and I flip a switch and 2 of 10 550w solar panels start making 30 gallons of hot water. I flip another switch and 4 of 10 550w solar panels start charging my motorcycle. I leave the 4 remaining 550w solar panels and a couple of small wind turbines to keep the 2kwh house battery full and to run the house.

The next day is very cloudy with some rain. I switch all 10 of my solar panels to charge the house battery and to power the house. My hot water will be supplied by the on demand propane water heater and if the e-motorcycle has no power and I want to ride I will take the gasoline power bike out for a ride.

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Re: Running a house on an e-motorcycle battery?

Post by John and Cecil » Apr 04 2021 6:47am

marka-ee wrote:
Apr 04 2021 5:28am
Hello John. I have similar laws here, they make it expensive to connect to the grid. I just do it on a small scale :) . I have a cheap China 500watt grid tie inverter that I have hooked up to 8 120 watt panels. It's hits 500 watts when the sunshine is good. You have to realize that the panel ratings are hard to actually get. Assume about 50% of what the sticker says. So I have 3 phase power from the grid and this little unit plugs into one phase obviously. My utility meter is designed not to run backwards so it just gets stuck and bounces around when I have extra power. I would love to figure out a low cost system that could absorb the extra energy that I am just gifting to the utility company when the meter is stopped. I have a bunch of cells from an old EV car that I could use to charge. There are no low cost 'power wall' controllers that I know of, unfortunately . I could build something myself, detecting when the meter wants to spin backwards and diverting some of the DC power to charge a battery bank. It's tricky. I have some of the cells set up in a 3s4p pack that sits on a shelf ready to power a 12 volt sine wave inverter in case of power outage. I know 12volt is non optimal, but I found the inverter cheap at a swap meet so I hooked it up. The missing piece is really a cheap 'power wall' controller that properly manages the energy flow. On the net people are fast an loose with the term 'power wall' and usually it means hooking up a battery to an inverter with a non-smart charger. That is not a 'power wall' in my book. Anyhow in Europe you can find salvaged cells from EV cars. And you can plug in a mini grid tie inverter to the wall without telling anyone. Mine does the shutdown when there is no grid power so it won't kill a line man, but it's not all certified and stuff. It does work however. These little inverters are less that $100.
Thank you for your input. I am going to study what you wrote later today when I have time. I am leaning toward a new theory right now which is to use grid power to backup an entire home solar and wind setup by means of a high powered charger and as small of a battery that I can get away with. A smart charger seems to be a possible answer, as that will be the way to keep the solar power and the grid power seperate with energy only flowing in one direction. I wonder how much a charger would cost that can provide a 48v 40amp charge and be able to turn on and off automatically at predefined battery levels.

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Re: Running a house on an e-motorcycle battery?

Post by john61ct » Apr 04 2021 1:58pm

Yes of course if you have grid power available anytime on demand

and doing so does not violate your goals

then just a couple of dirt cheap FLA GCs will do, and keep the moto side simple and separate at 96V



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Re: Running a house on an e-motorcycle battery?

Post by john61ct » Apr 04 2021 2:08pm


John and Cecil wrote:A smart charger seems to be a possible answer, as that will be the way to keep the solar power and the grid power seperate with energy only flowing in one direction. I wonder how much a charger would cost that can provide a 48v 40amp charge and be able to turn on and off automatically at predefined battery levels.
The term "smart charger" just means it automatically drops to Float when its algorithm determines the battery is Full.

As opposed to old-style trickle / garage style ones where the human needs to turn it off.

Look at Elcon chargers, with the CAN control option you can get an Arduino controller programmed to do whatever you want.

There might even be a model that can switch between 96V and 48V.

But of course just from mains.

Arduino can switch the relays over to solar controllers' input

if the big charger is your only connection to the grid, then that is all the "smarts" needed.

Could even just do it manually up until the time you get the latter Arduino programming figured out.

The CAN control of the charger can be a separate Arduino, maybe pay someone to program that for you for your first go-round, give you some teaching / mentoring to get you started on being self-sufficient.

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Re: Running a house on an e-motorcycle battery?

Post by fatty » Apr 05 2021 4:08am

john61ct's advice is correct.

It's the same response for all of these Rube Goldberg fantasies -- high cost and complexity for no benefit.

It makes you "sad" to burn gas for transport, but you want to switch to burning gas for hot water and cooking?

You want to boycott utility corporations, but stay connected to mains electricity, gas, and water?

It's nonsense, uninformed virtue signaling.


Keep it simple -- this doesn't have to be impossibly complicated:
Wanna get off petroleum transport? Get the e-moto and be happy. Better yet, e-bike, or the ultimate low environmental impact: pedal.
Wanna stick it to the utilities? Don't get big appliances. You don't need a dishwasher (hand wash) or laundry dryer (hang dry). For appliances you do need, get the most efficient available. But disconnecting from the grid is neither practical, nor cost effective, nor environmentally-friendly.

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Re: Running a house on an e-motorcycle battery?

Post by john61ct » Apr 05 2021 11:42am

That's a bit too strong, overstated IMO but yes, this use case is not motivated by too many practical benefits.

But getting off the grid completely is IMO a fine goal if you can afford it.

I lived that way for decades, but in a place where just connecting to utilities would have cost more than the land and house construction combined.

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Re: Running a house on an e-motorcycle battery?

Post by John and Cecil » Apr 06 2021 3:21am

fatty wrote:
Apr 05 2021 4:08am
john61ct's advice is correct.

It's the same response for all of these Rube Goldberg fantasies -- high cost and complexity for no benefit.

It makes you "sad" to burn gas for transport, but you want to switch to burning gas for hot water and cooking?

You want to boycott utility corporations, but stay connected to mains electricity, gas, and water?

It's nonsense, uninformed virtue signaling.


Keep it simple -- this doesn't have to be impossibly complicated:
Wanna get off petroleum transport? Get the e-moto and be happy. Better yet, e-bike, or the ultimate low environmental impact: pedal.

Wanna stick it to the utilities? Don't get big appliances. You don't need a dishwasher (hand wash) or laundry dryer (hang dry). For appliances you do need, get the most efficient available. But disconnecting from the grid is neither practical, nor cost effective, nor environmentally-friendly.
Please do not judge me, you do not know me. Getting a running system working is priority, then over time I can eliminate those other fossil fuels when I am not being forced to bend over and pay ransom money for ridiculously priced batteries. There is no reason for me to waste my time explaining every little detail...

You know, the more I think about your post the more I do not like it. You like calling people names like "Ruth Goldberg", that is just plain and simple mean. I wonder how many arrogant people called Nikola Tesla a Ruth Goldberg in his early years. And you want to criticize me because I am trying to USE LESS GRID POWER even though the CORRUPT CORPORATION here is doing EVERYTHING that they possibly can to FORCE everyone to buy power from THEM. And I already stated that I always wash my dishes by hand and I even do my laundry by hand at times, but I guess you did not read everything (and yet still you make negative judgements). I have an ebike too, but that is not good to go 50 miles up and down mountains and carry home 100lbs of groceries over long distances.

I do not wish to waste any more time with you Fatty. Go pick on someone else, I do not like your comments and you are not welcome on my thread. GO AWAY!
Last edited by John and Cecil on Apr 06 2021 4:04am, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Running a house on an e-motorcycle battery?

Post by John and Cecil » Apr 06 2021 3:36am

I appreciate some of the positive advice given, thank you.

I believe the grid tie system will not work for me, by connecting the solar array to the grid in such a manner may create legal issues. The 2 systems must be separate with no way for the solar array power to make contact with the grid. I believe I can connect a grid powered battery charger to a battery connected to the solar array, but that is probably all I can do (or use a 3 way switch).

I have some more ideas about an off grid fridge. I wonder if a chest freezer can be modified so that a portion of it is frozen solid in a sealed off area, but the rest remains above freezing for food storage. This way during the day when solar power is humming along it will freeze a portion of it's capacity (maybe 25%), and at night when there is no power the ice will maintain the cold temperature and keep the food from spoiling until the next day. I used to do something like this in anticipation of power outages. I used to always keep 3 gallons of ice in the freezer, and when the power went out one gallon of ice would go on each of the 3 shelves inside the refrigerator.

Also I think I would prefer to use a smaller capacity battery on the solar panel side of the voltage regulator (or use 2 voltage regulators) if anyone has done that before. I would like the solar panels and the battery to work as one, then have their combined power converted to ac current to supply the house. This way the solar panels will charge the battery when it is a lower voltage than their output but also the solar panels will supply power to the ac converter directly. Thus it is not necessary to put every drop of solar power through the battery. Or does this happen anyway?

I would really like to get the battery out of the system entirely, but if not then I want it to function as sort of a backup where it just gives a little power when necessary when the solar panels are not consistent or they cannot handle the load. I do not wish to worry about nights or periods of inclimate weather right now. I can always just install a 3 way manual main breaker switch and simply flip the switch to off and then over to grid and whalla - the home is fully powered on the grid. And then the next day I can flip the switch to off and then over to solar array and whalla the home is powered by solar again. I can even put a charger on a seperate breaker before this main 3 way breaker so even when the grid power is disconnected from the house it can still be connected to the small battery connected to the solar array to give a little help if the battery capacity drops below say 40%.

I did some more research on the motorcycle. It seems 72v-102v seems to be the most common operating voltage for the ones I am considering. I saw a homemade one made from a klr250 dual sport on youtube that I like a lot and it looked like the conversion was not too difficult. It uses a 12kw rear hub drive and it has regenerative braking controlled by the bike's brake pedal. The motor was removed and a 3.2kw battery installed in it's place. The motorcycle is powerful and can reach speeds up to 120kph using a 72v battery. It was nice because it can fit a rectangular battery and all it needs is a bolted or welded tray on the frame to hold the battery in place. It would not be too difficult to make a modular battery system for a motorcycle like that one. I also read that some people are using 72v solar home systems so 72v may be a good option for me as I can run the motorcycle and my home on the same power and batteries.

And before some other mean person makes a comment about me using the grid, at least I will only using maybe 1/4 as much power and I will have a system ready to just plug in a larger battery sometime in the future when costs drop and then I can completely cut ties with the power company. It is called taking "steps" towards a future of energy independency. There are plenty of other people destroying the planet that a mean person can pick on.

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Re: Running a house on an e-motorcycle battery?

Post by john61ct » Apr 06 2021 9:42am

Yes as stated, the only grid connection being your bank charger, makes for a very simple, inexpensive and safe design. No aircon obviously.

There is no need for any 3-way switch, just power off your mains charger and there is no input from the grid.

The SC will always be active.

______
John and Cecil wrote: I also read that some people are using 72v solar home systems so 72v may be a good option for me as I can run the motorcycle and my home on the same power and batteries.
That is where your very rare, complicated, dangerous and fragile infrastructure circuitry becomes necessary, also much more expensive.

48V less so, but not by that much.

Large battery banks at 12 or 24V are really cheap in comparison.

______
It is bog standard on (off grid solar cruising) boat 12/24V refrigeration to have one large compartment, with a controlling baffle separating the freezer section from the refrigerated one.

Sailing forums have good DIY info if you are on such a tight budget.

But two identical portable chest units, either / both capable of acting as a freezer gives a lot of flexibility, Engel and ARB being the top brands.

Also running refrigeration off LPG is great for land use off grid, we lived for decades using kerosene.

______
There should never be any power outages at all with a well designed system, you just reduce your consumption when needed.

Not sure what it is you mean by "voltage regulator" here?

All your load devices need to run directly on DC power as much as possible for energy efficiency.

True, EU has much better efficiency standards for AC mains appliances, but inverters are very wasteful, the "% efficiency" ratings are largely fiction.

Your energy **sources** are the mains charger and the solar panels

the whole system runs of the battery bank, but that is just a time buffer, bigger capacity, longer time.

The current will first be feeding the loads, only what is left over will go into the storage bank.

Obviously the ideal is that the sources are sized to do both at once, but with solar the weather conditions are a big factor.

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Re: Running a house on an e-motorcycle battery?

Post by fatty » Apr 06 2021 1:43pm

John and Cecil wrote:
Apr 06 2021 3:21am
You know, the more I think about your post the more I do not like it. You like calling people names like "Ruth Goldberg", that is just plain and simple mean. I wonder how many arrogant people called Nikola Tesla a Ruth Goldberg in his early years. And you want to criticize me because I am trying to USE LESS GRID POWER even though the CORRUPT CORPORATION here is doing EVERYTHING that they possibly can to FORCE everyone to buy power from THEM. And I already stated that I always wash my dishes by hand and I even do my laundry by hand at times, but I guess you did not read everything (and yet still you make negative judgements). I have an ebike too, but that is not good to go 50 miles up and down mountains and carry home 100lbs of groceries over long distances.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rube_Goldberg_machine

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Re: Running a house on an e-motorcycle battery?

Post by John and Cecil » Apr 06 2021 1:47pm

There is a need for a 3 way switch, but nobody is hearing me. It is needed due to battery cost. Let us forget about the motorcycle for a minute. The argument is that I will need a large capacity battery (3 to 5 DAYS capacity) to allow my system to function overnight and through long storm, etcs. But the 3 way switch eliminates my need for a battery to get me through the night or through some long drawn out storm. I flip the switch and the entire house goes off solar power and back onto the grid. It is cheap and simple, and it does not interfere with anything else that I wish to do. I just throw one extra very high amperage switch into the list of items that I need.

This switch will allow me to run my house on solar power with a very small battery. I would need 6 hours of reserve capacity, not 5 days of reserve capacity. If you consider an efficient home that uses 4kwh per day then a 20kwh (5 days x 4kwh) battery is recommended. But I would like to use a 1kwh battery (1/4 day). By using a 1kwh battery rather than a 20kwh battery I will save $10,000 in upfront costs.

Now let us do some more math. Lets assume that I can only generate about half the power I need with my solar system with small battery and my cheap 3 way switch. 365 days x 4kwh electric per day = about 1500kwh per year. I generate 750kwh per year and purchase 750kwh per year from the power company. If you include fees, etc electricity costs about $0.25 a kwh, so I will be paying about $200 a year for grid electricity.

So, in conclusion I can save $10,000 by not buying the 20kwh battery, but it will cost me $200 a year to purchase electricity at night and during storms (and maybe $100 for a high amperage 3 way breaker). It will take 50 YEARS to pay off that damn $10,000 battery - and I promise you that battery will never last that long (or someone will steal it to feed their family for half a decade).

So Yes, I NEED the 3 way switch.

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John and Cecil   10 kW

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Re: Running a house on an e-motorcycle battery?

Post by John and Cecil » Apr 06 2021 1:54pm

fatty wrote:
Apr 06 2021 1:43pm
John and Cecil wrote:
Apr 06 2021 3:21am
You know, the more I think about your post the more I do not like it. You like calling people names like "Ruth Goldberg", that is just plain and simple mean. I wonder how many arrogant people called Nikola Tesla a Ruth Goldberg in his early years. And you want to criticize me because I am trying to USE LESS GRID POWER even though the CORRUPT CORPORATION here is doing EVERYTHING that they possibly can to FORCE everyone to buy power from THEM. And I already stated that I always wash my dishes by hand and I even do my laundry by hand at times, but I guess you did not read everything (and yet still you make negative judgements). I have an ebike too, but that is not good to go 50 miles up and down mountains and carry home 100lbs of groceries over long distances.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rube_Goldberg_machine
I asked you to leave and yet you continue to post here. Go pick on your wife / partner / cat. I may not know much about solar arrays but I have a degree in psychology and I am certain that I do not like you...

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John and Cecil   10 kW

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Re: Running a house on an e-motorcycle battery?

Post by John and Cecil » Apr 06 2021 2:29pm

Ok, back to my response before I was rudely interrupted :(

I did see some 72v charge controllers and 72v to 230v ac inverters. They are more expensive than 12, 24, and 48v devices but they are not that much more expensive (maybe 50% more expensive). I also probably have the option of setting up the charge controller to undercharge the battery by 5-10% for some added safety and battery longevity. However I can run the system at 36 or 48v instead and then use 2 batteries in a series to get 72v or 96v for the motorcycle.

There is no real difference in lithium battery prices between 12v , 48v and 72v. Battery prices are about the same per kwh. A 12v 200ah battery, 48v 50ah battery, and 72v 33ah have the same wh capacity and cost about the same.

I am glad the solar panels will provide power to the load first and then to the battery. I don't want everything going through the battery.

Thank you for the info about the sailing forums and their custom fridges. I will look into them. I am really not looking to run anything else on propane. Eventually I am going to stop using propane all together but eliminating electric power for cooking and heating and hot water was the best way to drastically reduce my winter electricity needs which is the bottleneck. Over time as I gain experience with my solar system I will slowly incorporate other ways to heat water and cook and then the propane will no longer be needed. As it is now I am hoping to switch over the hot water and cooking to electric in the summer only when the solar panel output should be double than in winter. It is easy to do, if the sun is shining then it is fine to use the microwave, otherwise I use the gas stovetop. I will probably have a pellet stove for heat in the winter, and perhaps I can use it to make hot water too depending on access to a nearby hot water pipe (stone and masonry homes suck - no inside wall cavities).

I do not plan on running any load devices on dc, everything is going to run on ac. This is necessary because battery prices are ridiculous. If batteries were cheap it would be different, but battery prices are still way too high to consider a completely independent off grid system at this time. I would rather have less efficiency and be able to flip a switch and power the home from the grid at night or during a storm or if my solar array gets fried or something. Eventually I will hopefully get where you are trying to lead me, but that is probably not going to be the case until solid state batteries become mainstream or until I have a large capacity electric vehicle that can be used as a home battery too. I have to take steps, and the best first step that I can take is to run the entire house off a large ac inverter powered by solar panels with a relatively small battery as a buffer (with a grid powered battery charger backup if the charge drops below 40% or so). I do not use many appliances though, I do 1 load of laundry a week and I hand wash dishes.

This system could probably run 24/7 but with a small battery and the battery charger converting grid power to dc, then back to ac to power the house it will not be efficient. So when solar panel output (and maybe some wind or water turbines assisting) is not enough to power the home then it will be more efficient for me to flip the breaker and switch the entire house back to grid power.
Last edited by John and Cecil on Apr 06 2021 2:38pm, edited 1 time in total.

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nicobie   1 GW

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Re: Running a house on an e-motorcycle battery?

Post by nicobie » Apr 06 2021 2:35pm

Nobody "owns" their own thread here. Everybody is welcome to post where they like. If you don't like the advice people are taking their time to give you, just don't listen to it. It sounds like you know it all already. :wink:

Why not just try out your ideas and then let us know how it goes? Remember, one test is worth 1000 opinions. :D
Ask for it by name.

my eTownie build thread: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=23701
Magazine article https://www.electricbike.com/nicks-etownie/

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John and Cecil   10 kW

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Re: Running a house on an e-motorcycle battery?

Post by John and Cecil » Apr 06 2021 2:45pm

nicobie wrote:
Apr 06 2021 2:35pm
Nobody "owns" their own thread here. Everybody is welcome to post where they like. If you don't like the advice people are taking their time to give you, just don't listen to it. It sounds like you know it all already. :wink:

Why not just try out your ideas and then let us know how it goes? Remember, one test is worth 1000 opinions. :D

Look, I am not trying to watch a Bruce Willis movie here. I don't appreciate overly controlling people that throw around insults and unwanted opinions. Go away, I don't want you posting here. There is no reason for it, I am asking for help and some people are kind enough to do so without being overly controlling and insulting. I thought you were Fatty when I responded, now I see you are someone else. Your comments are not appreciated either, please do not post here again. Your comments are not wanted and are disruptive to the intention of the post.

Any mods reading this, please message me on how to block someone. Thank you.

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John and Cecil   10 kW

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Re: Running a house on an e-motorcycle battery?

Post by John and Cecil » Apr 06 2021 2:56pm

duplicate

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