2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by knutselmaaster » Dec 07 2020 7:09am

It isn't a motor for throttle only usage, you will need more power to achieve that.

If the motor stops at full throttle it might be the throttle voltage that is too high, does it give an error on the display?
If not, it might be the throttle that has a problem, does the motor run without problems if you run it with PAS sensor?

For the settings, check your display manual. It is important to set up all parameters!

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by max3d » Dec 07 2020 7:32am

Hi, thanks for thinking along.

I never use only throttle, I'm so used to cycling that I can't :)

No errors on display, the PAS sensors is not yet installed as I'm not sure how to do that correctly.

I have the KT-LCD3 display and can't find any reference to P settings; maximum riding speed, wheel diameter, metric units. Nothing else.

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by knutselmaaster » Dec 07 2020 7:39am

Search for the full manual, not the user manual. You'll probably find it here with the forum search.

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by max3d » Dec 07 2020 7:59am

Found it :)

Current P1 parameter setting is 104 (off factory) that's for a 700C, 48V, 15A KT controller, rear wheel motor. Should that be changed to 88?

I see that P1 = motor gear reduction ratio×number of rotor magnet pieces. Would they have made a mistake in the factory by setting it to 104?

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by knutselmaaster » Dec 07 2020 9:37am

I believe that it is the right setting, I'll check tomorrow when I'll be back in my shop.
This setting doesn't influence the functioning of the motor but if it is way off, the max speed limit kicks in too soon thus stopping the motor.

If you ride without PAS, you should also check P4 and C4 settings.

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by max3d » Dec 08 2020 8:34am

My plan is to certainly install the PAS sensor as it's an obligation as well as something I prefer. The gas handle would only be used for steep hills if I have to (re-)start halfway.

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by Ecyclist » Dec 10 2020 2:28am

max3d wrote:
Dec 08 2020 8:34am
My plan is to certainly install the PAS sensor as it's an obligation as well as something I prefer. The gas handle would only be used for steep hills if I have to (re-)start halfway.
You will also find it handy at busy intersections. :bigthumb:
Don't expect from life to be easy and then it will be.
My builds:
Avian with hypocycloidal drive https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 2#p1318056
2016 GNG extreme drive https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=82252

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by max3d » Dec 26 2020 1:50pm

Well, after installing the PAS sensor no progress. Power was still cut at a certain resistance (hill / grass).
Swapped the controller for another brand new one: same issue.

Tested the battery; it's perfectly capable of producing the needed amperage.

The power is cut not above a certain wattage (I can see it going as high as low in the 700W area), but in relation to a certain resistance. Up until level 3 it delivers continuous power depending on PAS rotation. Above level 3 the power is there for a second or two and then immediately the drive stops. I need to stop rotating the pedal and restart to get the motor going again with the same result.

The gas handle behaves in an identical way, but is more difficult to precisely control the cut off point.

Resistance is here defined as either going up a steeper hill, driving through grass or using the brake in a mild way. I use the pedals with limited force as it gets me going and then the motor stops. Putting more power on the pedals makes no difference.

So the only thing left is the engine, but I'm clueless as in what could cause this.

I'm stuck with this problem which occurred after a trouble free 45 mins of first riding and is now persistent
Last edited by max3d on Dec 26 2020 4:25pm, edited 3 times in total.

knutselmaaster   1 kW

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by knutselmaaster » Dec 26 2020 2:04pm

That indeed is a strange problem.
Does the problem occur in both High and Low?

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by max3d » Dec 27 2020 12:59pm

Tested; seems to only happen in low gear. In high gear I can keep delivering power at @700W for a few mins while going up a hill until the resistance is too high to get up even while heavy pedaling. Then the power cuts as well, but that makes sense.

In low gear the power cuts already at lower wattage and while still pedaling at a 10km/h rate at Pas level > 3. When using the gas handle while moving (so not from standstill) the power cuts immediately. Again this only happens if there is such resistance like a hill or driving through grass.

The controller doesn't get hotter than 32 degrees Celcius and the motor at its hottest spot (at the axle where the cable leaves) will be 42 Celcius max so far.

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by knutselmaaster » Dec 27 2020 2:34pm

This motor isn't equipped with temperature sensors, nor any other "overcharge" protection. (At least, the versions that I know)
Maybe there is a HAL sensor that is moving, a bad isolated motor winding or a mechanical problem.
You could try opening the motor to check the internals for loose or damaged elements.
If you bought the motor new and it never functioned correctly, you could just ask your seller to swap it under guarantee.
700W is a lot for this small motor by the way, I never let them pass 500W and most of the time I keep them below 400W.

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by max3d » Dec 27 2020 3:20pm

Thanks for thinking along. This topic is no longer very active so I guess I will have to go back to Xiongda and ask Bonnie for a solution. Wish I had a clearer understanding of the issue to report.

(btw, I ordered it specifically for 48V / 15A and power in low gear cuts much earlier, somewhere above 250W)

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by knutselmaaster » Dec 27 2020 3:49pm

Indeed, with 48v the power will get (33%) over the values that I stated in my previous post.
I mostly use 36v motors.
Bonnie will help, don't worry, she is very kind.

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by want to build » Apr 09 2021 7:41pm

hi,
if my memory is good, the axle from the hub is 12 mm correct?
how compatible is it with this trailer and wich trailer do you use with the hub? yak? Girafe?
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knutselmaaster   1 kW

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by knutselmaaster » Apr 21 2021 1:12pm

If the frame dropout on the bike isn't too thick, there will be no problems for the mounting plate of the trailer, as long as the axle nut is screwed on entirely (on the uninterrupted part of the thread, not on the part where the thread is interrupted for the motor wire).
On some trailers the hole is 10mm, but it is easy to adapt with a file or a 12mm drill.

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by quattro74 » May 07 2021 9:48am

Hello,

First post, very interested in this motor. I'm wondering if I should get from Luna or order direct from Bonnie? Does it matter for 'hot rodding' a bit? I'm thinking of building my dream bike. Light MTB CF 29er with 700c wheels, Bottle battery. 48v 350w is a good way to go? KT controller so I can program it how I want? LCD-3 is how it comes? Is this kit compatible with disc brakes? I'm guessing that the kit included rake handles would controller both the battery/motor controller as well as the disc brakes?

Thanks in advance.

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by Chalo » May 07 2021 11:44am

A lightweight, low power hub motor is not a good match for 29 inch wheels.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by quattro74 » May 07 2021 12:20pm

Thanks Chalo,

I'm actually looking at lightweight wheels/tires, I can run 700mm wheels on a 29er MTB frame, no? Or maybe I should look at a 27.5 frame... Mavix Allroad UTS wheel up front, rebuilt with the hub motor, and Mavix Allroad Carbon UTS in the rear? I think with 48v 350v it should run it ok? If I specify from Bonnie that I want it wound for 27.5 wheels?

Thanks

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by want to build » May 07 2021 8:31pm

Chalo wrote:
May 07 2021 11:44am
A lightweight, low power hub motor is not a good match for 29 inch wheels.
hi why is that ? plz insert what your opinion is based on tx

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by Chalo » May 07 2021 10:21pm

want to build wrote:
Chalo wrote:
May 07 2021 11:44am
A lightweight, low power hub motor is not a good match for 29 inch wheels.
hi why is that ? plz insert what your opinion is based on tx
Lightweight means small diameter. Low power and small diameter means low torque. Low torque in a large wheel means low thrust and low rpm. Low rpm means low motor efficiency. Low motor efficiency and light weight mean easy overheating.

Every step of this chain of difficulties gets much easier the better the motor's mechanical advantage, and the smaller the wheel, the better the motor's mechanical advantage. 29 inch is the largest wheel diameter that's commonly available, and thus puts the motor at its worst possible mechanical advantage. It's workable, but you need a large diameter, relatively high power hub motor for big wheels to make good sense.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by quattro74 » May 07 2021 11:36pm

I agree Chalo,

I should have explained. I want a very light, stealthy, meaning small battery, again light, 29er Carbon fiber build using US spec 700c wheels, which are 27.5 inch, different from Europe? So I will be pedaling a lot. I'm not a heavy person.

With the 48v 350w controller/motor I was thinking I could hot rod the setup a bit for when I do need to climb or move fast on the flats. I like the idea of having a light enough bike that I don't need the boost and can just turn the system off until I do. Or just leave the battery at home for more weight savings. I read earlier in this thread that some were using higher motor windings for the larger Tires/wheels say 270 or 280? and that the windings adequate for say a 24inch tire/wheel would make a 27.5 wheel move faster on the flats.

Is this right? Who should I deal with for this that would be best, Bonnie or Yona? Does the KT controller allow for changing amperage, etc.? Is the 48v 350w the right motor for this? I've read earlier in the thread that some were doing similar.

What does the kit consist of? a PAS, a Motor, a throttle switch, Controller/brain, Hal sensor, Brake handles, LCD-3? Then I buy or build a battery. Program it.

That will allow me to dial the system how I want to use it?

Thanks

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by john61ct » May 08 2021 12:49am

the central point is, the easiest way to get more power / torque

from a light / weak motor

is to use smaller wheels.

Think like Archimedes' levers, long end vs short
Last edited by john61ct on May 08 2021 12:49am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by donn » May 08 2021 9:16am

Though in principle, it seems that the small motors could easily be adapted to use with normal bicycle wheels, since their mechanical advantage is invariably mediated by internal gears. If we found that going on, then sure, the small wheel would still offer more torque, but at perhaps too much sacrifice to top speed.

What are the odds that the Xiongda 2-speed is really intended for use with normal wheels, like 26" to 700C/29" ? It's a parameter I have wondered about - manufacturers are usually silent on the subject of the internal gear ratio, am I right?

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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by Chalo » May 08 2021 10:07am

donn wrote:
May 08 2021 9:16am
What are the odds that the Xiongda 2-speed is really intended for use with normal wheels, like 26" to 700C/29" ? It's a parameter I have wondered about - manufacturers are usually silent on the subject of the internal gear ratio, am I right?
Reduction gear ratios are usually 1:5 or close to it. Manufacturers can and do make different windings with higher or lower kV for different size wheels, but I know of none who make different gear reductions in the same hub for different wheels. For this reason, such hubs make the same maximum torque regardless of winding, and the same torque at a given heat load regardless of winding. So in a larger wheel, you get less push and more heating.

To get equal performance from a bigger wheel, you need a bigger hub.
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Re: 2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Post by quattro74 » May 08 2021 6:42pm

After more research I now feel I know what to ask Bonnie when I order the kit.

I guess I'm still not clear on if the standard kit has the brake levers, which also kills the motor, and how well those work?

Also, is their an advantage to going with the 48v 350w version?

And, to anyone who has used it, how is the front motor? That is what I am currently considering.

All other questions I have I can just ask Bonnie.

Thanks

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