Cured my wife's anxiety and my depression with nutritional supplements.

neptronix said:
Wife has been having pretty bad anxiety for weeks, and has been prone to it her entire life.
Me? i have pretty much always suffered of depression to some degree. Found out i was B12 deficient despite being a meat eater, so started supplementing with dessicated liver years ago. I also get seasonal affective disorder extremely bad in the winter, which is just a D3 deficiency. Also ~90% cured. Have been taking both supplements for years with great success.

Nowadays, when i get depressed, it's for a good reason. The nutrients are just as effective as the antidepressants i used to take from 2002-2003 when i was getting off drugs.

Last night, I did an experiment on the wife. Had her take 8000 IU of vitamin d3 ( a high but not overly high dose ), along with a 1/3rds standard dose of desiccated liver in pill format ( no funky taste - and chock full of highly bioavailable nutrients, particularly vitamin A and B12 ).

The theory was that since sunlight is so low, she is probably extremely D3 deficient like most Americans. Since she eats a ketogenic diet with me, she probably doesn't have the B12 absorption issue i have, but why not try a 2 pronged attack.

Her fairly extreme anxiety was completely gone in an hour. We were both amazed by this.

Will have to follow up with another experiment to narrow it down as to whether the D3 or liver was responsible for the change in 3 days.

The interesting part is that vitamin deficiencies manifest themselves differently in different people. I always suspected that anxiety and depression both have the same cause - a lack of neurotransmitter supporting nutrients in the diet.

If you are currently taking pharmaceuticals or just simply feel like garbage throughout the winter typically, i recommend trying the nutritional path.
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Hello! I have severe anxiety and panic attacks every day. Can you tell me what brand of b12 and D3 / what mgs is the best? I dont want to buy the wrong kind or take the wrong dosage and just need to be pointed in the right direction! Or should i do the D3 with the beef liver capsules instead of the b12? Please help lol
 
brisusan19 said:
Hello! I have severe anxiety and panic attacks every day. Can you tell me what brand of b12 and D3 / what mgs is the best? I dont want to buy the wrong kind or take the wrong dosage and just need to be pointed in the right direction! Or should i do the D3 with the beef liver capsules instead of the b12? Please help lol
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You signed up just to ask this? :O

I'm sorry but i don't have a lot of experience with anxiety and i haven't read any research on where panic attacks come from. But i can give you some leads.

I think B vitamins benefit depression better but they are worth a try. Beef liver may be too stimulating for you. Try B vitamins first.
The complex i take is this, and there's tons of sellers for it: Super B-Complex, Methylated Vitamin B Complex tablets with Folate
Vitamin D3, really doesn't matter what brand you get. But sunlight or artificial UV light are many times better and are the only thing i recommend today given my experiences.

These things could possibly move the needle, worth looking into:
- Magnesium glycinate ( any brand will do ) ( for calming nerves ) ( most people are deficient in this anyway )
- Gabaplex ( Suggested brand ) ( Helps regulate GABA, will even take the edge off caffeine, doesn't make you doozy )
- Various herbs - Rhodiola Rosea ( serotonin booster ), Ashwaganda ( relaxing ), etc

As far as things i feel very strongly that will make an impact for you, most of them are lifestyle related:
- Get natural sun any chance you can - superior to vitamin D in biological effects related to mental health - for me, my ADHD and depression worsen the less i get, and vit D doesn't help as much as light. A 15 minute walk a day is enough for a white person. Quadruple that if you're black.
- Working out ( tons of research showing it can benefit anxiety; also increases testosterone which inherently reduces anxiety regardless of whether you are male or female )
- Ketogenic diet has a broad spectrum of positive effects on various mental health conditions - medical literature is finally beginning to catch wind of this - many papers have been published in the last 10 years. Here is one example paper that was funded by pharmaceutical corporations ( literally the last people you'd expect to support a drug-free treatment approach ) Ketogenic Diet: A Dietary Modification as an Anxiolytic Approach?

The ketogenic diet and working out is what helped my ex-wife the most. She was unwilling to try vitamins or herbs even though i have a pile of research to support their use for anxiety. So i can't say my list of 'things in a pill' are tested, just leads on something that could help.
 
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marty said:
Never get b12, D3, C7, beef liver, monkey balls, or any other medical advise from some unknown stranger on the internet. Better to go to any drugstore and talk to a pharmacist. Pharmacists are usually friendly helpful people who are not selling any nonsense.
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This is really bad advice. Pharmacists are not trained on vitamins and only know the basics. Their primary role is to distribute pharmaceutical medication, and their ongoing training revolves around that, not vitamins.

It's the equivalent of asking a diesel mechanic to work on an electric vehicle. It's possible he could do it, but that's not his specialty. He has worked on things that are electric like starters and alternators - but probably isn't the expert you're looking for when it comes to BLDC controller programming.

Goes to show how knowledgeable you are about this topic. :cautious:
 
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neptronix said:
You signed up just to ask this? :O

I'm sorry but i don't have a lot of experience with anxiety and i haven't read any research on where panic attacks come from. But i can give you some leads.

I think B vitamins benefit depression better but they are worth a try. Beef liver may be too stimulating for you. Try B vitamins first.
The complex i take is this, and there's tons of sellers for it: Super B-Complex, Methylated Vitamin B Complex tablets with Folate
Vitamin D3, really doesn't matter what brand you get. But sunlight or artificial UV light are many times better and are the only thing i recommend today given my experiences.

These things could possibly move the needle, worth looking into:
- Magnesium glycinate ( any brand will do ) ( for calming nerves ) ( most people are deficient in this anyway )
- Gabaplex ( Suggested brand ) ( Helps regulate GABA, will even take the edge off caffeine, doesn't make you doozy )
- Various herbs - Rhodiola Rosea ( serotonin booster ), Ashwaganda ( relaxing ), etc

As far as things i feel very strongly that will make an impact for you, most of them are lifestyle related:
- Get natural sun any chance you can - superior to vitamin D in biological effects related to mental health - for me, my ADHD and depression worsen the less i get, and vit D doesn't help as much as light. A 15 minute walk a day is enough for a white person. Quadruple that if you're black.
- Working out ( tons of research showing it can benefit anxiety; also increases testosterone which inherently reduces anxiety regardless of whether you are male or female )
- Ketogenic diet has a broad spectrum of positive effects on various mental health conditions - medical literature is finally beginning to catch wind of this - many papers have been published in the last 10 years. Here is one example paper that was funded by pharmaceutical corporations ( literally the last people you'd expect to support a drug-free treatment approach ) Ketogenic Diet: A Dietary Modification as an Anxiolytic Approach?

The ketogenic diet and working out is what helped my ex-wife the most. She was unwilling to try vitamins or herbs even though i have a pile of research to support their use for anxiety. So i can't say my list of 'things in a pill' are tested, just leads on something that could help.
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Hmm. your original post (I think you wrote it) said that you had her try the supplements and it helped her so im just a little confused now i think
 
marty said:
What ya panicking about?
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having a panic attack HAHA sounds stupid really but theyre so scary i dont want to have another one. so now i live in an anxious state almost all day. Specifically on long drives or at night when i am alone with my thoughts lol. i know its silly trust me.
 
Forgive me, that was 4 years ago and my memory on this is fuzzy.
We did have some good initial results but she never stuck with the protocol for longer than a week.
She didn't have panic attacks, just regular anxiety.

I went from beef liver ( great, but can lead to ups & downs ) to the time release B complex i mentioned and have been on it since ~2019 to great effect.

So i don't have any long term results on her but i do for me.
 
Its okay! I got the D3 and Beef liver and feel somewhat better so far so i might just stick to that! I almost felt like my brain wasnt mine for a week with how anxious I was so now I feel semi normal but still anxious occasionally.
 
brisusan19 said:
having a panic attack HAHA sounds stupid really but theyre so scary i dont want to have another one. so now i live in an anxious state almost all day. Specifically on long drives or at night when i am alone with my thoughts lol. i know its silly trust me.
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You have mental illness.

Some drugs that can make mental illness worse.

Caffeine - This one is the worst.
Tobacco / Nicotine - Nothing good with this one.
Marijuana - Can be good or bad.
Alcohol - Not good when driving.
Cocaine - Stay away.
Meth - Yea no meth.

Things that are good for for physical and mental health.

Water
Healthy food
Exercise
Sleep

"long drives or at night" When operating a motor vehicle you mind should be 100% on driving not mental illness thoughts. Do not drive when sleepy, angry, upset, anxious, or not able to concentrate on what ya doing.

Take a bus, taxi, train, plane, have some one else drive or just don't go.
 
neptronix said:
This is really bad advice. Pharmacists are not trained on vitamins and only know the basics. Their primary role is to distribute pharmaceutical medication, and their ongoing training revolves around that, not vitamins.

It's the equivalent of asking a diesel mechanic to work on an electric vehicle. It's possible he could do it, but that's not his specialty. He has worked on things that are electric like starters and alternators - but probably isn't the expert you're looking for when it comes to BLDC controller programming.

Goes to show how knowledgeable you are about this topic. :cautious:
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Im curious what are vitamins if not pharmaceutical medication? Medications can be preventative as well as curative..
Your pharmacist is a qualified person, and stands ahead in the pecking order of those qualified to advise on any medications. Clinicians will refer to pharmacists so why cant you..
Really bad advice is advocating for anecdotal web sourced advice over professional opinion.
 
marty said:
That is exactly how a cow feels as it is being murdered in a slaughterhouse. These feelings are transferred to the humans who eat the meat from the terrified animal.

Eat more fruits and vegetables. Pears are good this time of the year where I am at.
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Me and my ex wife both had far worse mental health when we were vegetarians.
 
fill said:
Im curious what are vitamins if not pharmaceutical medication? Medications can be preventative as well as curative..
Your pharmacist is a qualified person, and stands ahead in the pecking order of those qualified to advise on any medications. Clinicians will refer to pharmacists so why cant you..
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Vitamins are not pharmaceutical medication, even though they can be as powerful.
Pharmacists are trained in pharmaceutical medication and not vitamins.

Again i go back to the diesel mechanic versus EV mechanic analogy. Don't ask a diesel mechanic to work on your EV, you've got the wrong expert.

fill said:
Really bad advice is advocating for anecdotal web sourced advice over professional opinion.
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This is a funny attitude to have on a forum where it's customary to ask people who are not certified electricians, mechanical engineers, about how to build and repair an electric bike, take their advice, and nobody has a problem with that.

An engineering error on an electric bike can be deadly and so can bad medical advice.
By this standard we should close the forum because it's full of dangerous misinformation since some authority somewhere doesn't agree. 😅

Everything i know comes from research done at universities and other legitimate institutions. I can post research to support any of my claims. Every time i do it, nobody reads them.

I'm happy to back any of my claims with research papers but i'm still waiting to find a single member willing to read them, instead of do the usual thing and demean my almost 2 decades of research and experience without examining or thinking about what was said.

Disappointing, frankly.
 
neptronix said:
Vitamins are not pharmaceutical medication, even though they can be as powerful.
Pharmacists are trained in pharmaceutical medication and not vitamins.

Again i go back to the diesel mechanic versus EV mechanic analogy. Don't ask a diesel mechanic to work on your EV, you've got the wrong expert.



This is a funny attitude to have on a forum where it's customary to ask people who are not certified electricians, mechanical engineers, about how to build and repair an electric bike, take their advice, and nobody has a problem with that.

An engineering error on an electric bike can be deadly and so can bad medical advice.
By this standard we should close the forum because it's full of dangerous misinformation since some authority somewhere doesn't agree. 😅

Everything i know comes from research done at universities and other legitimate institutions. I can post research to support any of my claims. Every time i do it, nobody reads them.

I'm happy to back any of my claims with research papers but i'm still waiting to find a single member willing to read them, instead of do the usual thing and demean my almost 2 decades of research and experience without examining or thinking about what was said.

Disappointing, frankly.
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Again what are supplemental vitamins if not medications?
Who do you think derives the recommended daily dosage of supplementary vitamins?
Who do you think a clinician will consult regarding possible conflicts when a patient is self medicating with a hi dose of vit C before prescribing?

Your analogy is flawed possibly due to us legal definitions of foodstuffs labelling vitamins as foods for commercial reasons? but as they have a chemical effect when ingested they are by definition drugs and medically are treated as such regardless of any legal definition.

go on i will bite show me the research that proves pharmacists are ignorant of vitamins..
 
marty said:
Just so ya know...... Nep is the wisest wise man on all of the internet.

The wiser wise man says - "I am not the wisest wise man"
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Am i being a dick? Its happened before, probably will happen again,,

Not intentional, and no malice this end

Now i can think of an apt analogy myself, but stating it Now Would make me a Dick ..
just gotta stick up for the lil guy pharmacists ;) their scope of reference is a lot wider than our friend appreciates..
 
fill said:
Again what are supplemental vitamins if not medications?
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The USA Government & health care system don't classifies vitamins as medications. I don't either. Is your legal regime different?

fill said:
Who do you think derives the recommended daily dosage of supplementary vitamins?
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Federal agencies actually do this in the United States ( where i live ).

fill said:
Who do you think a clinician will consult regarding possible conflicts when a patient is self medicating with a hi dose of vit C before prescribing?
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Yes, this is the realm of a pharmacist's knowledge because there is a small overlap in their role and how vitamins interact with how drugs are metabolized etc. Knowing this is part of their job and their training.

fill said:
go on i will bite show me the research that proves pharmacists are ignorant of vitamins..
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I never said they are ignorant. I said they are not the de facto experts on the topic. And i'm kind of surprised we're still arguing about this.

Let me just make this really clear.
A pharmacist is not trained on how to treat medical conditions with vitamins ( this is more of the role of a physician or researcher ). Their primary role is to dispense and understand pharmaceutical medication. Their training revolves around the basics of vitamins and their interactions, at least here in the United States.

To go back to the argument - to suggest a diesel mechanic is the ideal person to talk to to fix an electrical vehicle, because they know a little bit about electricity, is about as good of a choice of seeing a pharmacist as a definitive expert on how to treat medical conditions with vitamins. Some small overlap in training/knowledge is not equivalent to someone whose primary focus is the thing you're looking for help on.
 
may i encourage you google the syllabus of any pharmacy degree and check out the depth of the organic chemistry studied, vitamins being some of the earliest organic compounds studied, are studied from a number of perspectives.. in fact id make a blind wager that they are pretty fundamental..
To rephrase your analogy you seem to be suggesting your diesel mechanic would be the wrong chap to talk to about glow-plugs,

Try having a chat to a pharmacist, they may be thrilled to share the breadth of their expertise, the few ive known sure are.. perhaps because i had to sit through it is motivating my defence??

I dont want to be a dick here, but come on. You have to be joking...
The USA Government & health care system don't classifies vitamins as medications. I don't either. Is your legal regime different?
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the government is for keeping the lights on and the hospitals staffed, and keeping the press busy, not for telling us how to think ffs,
what has a legal ruling got to do with scientific consensus its not medieval Italy is it? you can pass a law making blue red it wont change the visible spectrum one iota. .... this list is endless...

Look i could rant on here but thats just counterproductive.. So Mia culpa my first post to this thread could have been politer there was no need for the "really bad advice" quip, and i could have phrased my objections and suspicion of your underestimation differently.

If you want to die on this hill flame me in pm and lets spare the rest of the people here
 
fill said:
Am i being a dick? Its happened before, probably will happen again,,

Not intentional, and no malice this end

Now i can think of an apt analogy myself, but stating it Now Would make me a Dick ..
just gotta stick up for the lil guy pharmacists ;) their scope of reference is a lot wider than our friend appreciates..
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You might have misinterpreted what I typed?

Goes like this:

The wise man says I am the wisest wise man. The wiser wise man says I am not the wisest wise man.

I am a aggravating, annoying, agitated, asshole. And those are only the words that start with A.
 
fill said:
may i encourage you google the syllabus of any pharmacy degree and check out the depth of the organic chemistry studied, vitamins being some of the earliest organic compounds studied, are studied from a number of perspectives.. in fact id make a blind wager that they are pretty fundamental..
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I'm the CTO of an accredited online university in the USA so i've seen my share of curriculum and syllabuses ( or is that technically, syllabii? ) in the health field for now.

Here's doctor of pharmacy ( high level )
1696262262937.png
As you can see, the syllabus is oriented around understanding, dispensing and dosing drugs, primarily pharmaceutical ones. Nutrition and physiology are part of their training but this is not their primary focus. They are an expert in pharmaceutical drugs. ( hence the name )

Your typical low level pharmacy technician's training looks like this, used a community college example because it's more typical for the training to be there:

1696265639282.png

Probably the closest thing to a 'vitamin doctor' is a functional medicine practitioner here in the United States.
The curriculum for this profession is focused on the human body, how it works, and how to treat it using natural therapies such as herbs, vitamins, and lifestyle changes. So this is the closest thing to the legal definition of 'expert' of natural medicine in our system.

https://functionalmedicinecoaching....2020/04/Master_Syllabus_June2020_04232020.pdf

1696262596619.png

Here's another 'vitamin doctor' type role in the USA:
The state of California actually has a legal and certifiable definition of what is a 'naturopath', here is their syllabus ( from Naturopathic Medicine Curriculum - California Board of Naturopathic Medicine )

1696263280274.png
Notice that they understand pharmacology.. but i really wouldn't recommend expecting they have the same knowledge as a pharmacist; that would be like asking a the diesel mechanic about the specifics of lithium battery lifespan.

Side note, i am not a fan of naturopaths ( i'm more interested in the scientific method than they are ), just using them as an example of one of the main 'vitamin doctor' like roles here in the USA.
fill said:
My first post to this thread could have been politer there was no need for the "really bad advice" quip, and i could have phrased my objections and suspicion of your underestimation differently.
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I appreciate you saying that (y)

fill said:
If you want to die on this hill flame me in pm and lets spare the rest of the people here
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This thread is my 'arena', don't deny me the honor of dying in it :ROFLMAO:
 
neptronix said:
I'm the CTO of an accredited online university in the USA so i've seen my share of curriculum and syllabuses ( or is that technically, syllabii? ) in the health field for now.

Here's doctor of pharmacy ( high level )
View attachment 340392
As you can see, the syllabus is oriented around understanding, dispensing and dosing drugs, primarily pharmaceutical ones. Nutrition and physiology are part of their training but this is not their primary focus. They are an expert in pharmaceutical drugs. ( hence the name )

Your typical low level pharmacy technician's training looks like this, used a community college example because it's more typical for the training to be there:

View attachment 340397

Probably the closest thing to a 'vitamin doctor' is a functional medicine practitioner here in the United States.
The curriculum for this profession is focused on the human body, how it works, and how to treat it using natural therapies such as herbs, vitamins, and lifestyle changes. So this is the closest thing to the legal definition of 'expert' of natural medicine in our system.

https://functionalmedicinecoaching....2020/04/Master_Syllabus_June2020_04232020.pdf

View attachment 340393

Here's another 'vitamin doctor' type role in the USA:
The state of California actually has a legal and certifiable definition of what is a 'naturopath', here is their syllabus ( from Naturopathic Medicine Curriculum - California Board of Naturopathic Medicine )

View attachment 340396
Notice that they understand pharmacology.. but i really wouldn't recommend expecting they have the same knowledge as a pharmacist; that would be like asking a the diesel mechanic about the specifics of lithium battery lifespan.

Side note, i am not a fan of naturopaths ( i'm more interested in the scientific method than they are ), just using them as an example of one of the main 'vitamin doctor' like roles here in the USA.


I appreciate you saying that (y)



This thread is my 'arena', don't deny me the honor of dying in it :ROFLMAO:
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Well prima facia that sure looks like a headshot from the top of the hill..

But,,,, ;) When i refer to a Pharmacist I mean the dispensing Pharmacist, Here at least when anyone asks for advice at the counter unless the dispensing pharmacist is present they are deferred to and called for to answer, counter staff are there to run the shop/retail business, i guess? based on observation and experience as a customer.

And I assume for your higher degree a relevant 1st-h or 2nd-h class degree w is required. so no media studies ordinary degree candidates..

I think the main issue boils down to the difficulty in accepting or considering a legal definition is redundant in a non legal arena.

Just because some chap somewhere decides that vitamins are 'nutrients' not drugs for commercial reasons does not stop a single reaction at the chemical level anywhere.

Perhaps consider sitting at a stop sign in your car and getting shunted from the rear after hearing a squeal of rubber on rd.
Now you know its the guy behind you's fault for running into you. He knows it. But he will not admit it to you for insurance purposes if i understand us traffic law correctly?

the legality of the situation bears little or nothing on the actual facts. And eventually the insurance companies will come to the inevitable conclusion that its not your fault and pay out accordingly..

Accepting that Vitamins are 'probably' considered for their chemical attributes prior to their legal definition for pharmacological reasons isnt too big a ask is it?

edit just to add i i suggested a glance at a pharmacy syllabus after googling one (undergraduate level/1st degree) and a quick glance over revealed the depth of organic chemistry studied which i feel makes my point.. you cant study that level of organic chemistry and ignore certain key players..
 
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fill said:
Accepting that Vitamins are 'probably' considered for their chemical attributes prior to their legal definition for pharmacological reasons isnt too big a ask is it?
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Not too big of an ask, no.

The problem here is that vitamins, herbs, other kinds of natural remedies are, for legal reasons, classification reasons, profit motives, and treatment reasons considered distinctly different... at least here in the USA.

So when i am in a detailed discussion about these things, i tend to bring these distinctions up, especially if someone is from a very different legal regime. It's important to understand what legal context each person is from and establish a baseline understanding. Otherwise you are about to have a really screwed up internet debate, yanno!
 
Whats bugging me to death is the fact the 2 pharmacists i know best are friends of the wife, and not in my top 10 shall we say, my 'high' impression of their profession can only be due to the hours of enduring their beery boasts, They can NEVER see this..
Id Rather the mrs suspect im watching porn than defending her pal and her husband..
edit always my beer too btw
 
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