DIY or buy

[michielk]

Hi Guys,

Short introduction:
I'm 32 years old, and I've owned a motorcycle before but ended up only riding it sporadically. At the moment I'm almost finished with building a custom motorcycle (flat-tracker - café racer based on a Yamaha XS400), but most likely it will be mostly standing in the garage as well (not a issue, I just really wanted to build a motorcyle). My girlfriend recently got a ebike from her employer (in her transportation plan), the choice was limited so she got a Batavus (quality dutch brand) with a Bosch crank motor, Bosch battery and other bits with disk brakes. Overall pretty damn nice bike. When we go the city we usually take our bikes (now she takes her ebike), if we for grocery's or to family we usually take my company car. In a few weeks my custom motorcycle will be finished, so the next project could possible be an electric bike, as I think it would be fun to build my own and it will be used a lot more than a motorcycle.

Bike types in Belgium:
In Belgium electric bikes are divided into two common types
- PEDELEC BIKE; Most common type: You need to pedal for the motor to help, assitance only up to 25kmph, motorpower up to 250W, no official certificate necessary (it's allowed to build your own bike with a conversion kit, without any certificates as long as it's considered a Pedelec bike (assisted, 250W, 25kmph)).
- SPEED PEDELEC; You need to pedal for the motor help, assistance up to 45kmph, motorpower up to 4.000W, you need an official certificate (COC), a license plate and any drivers license, you can still ride on bike paths.

Everything else that rides faster, has a more powerfull motor or rides without pedalling is considered a motorcyle (insurance, taxes, drivers license, limited where you can ride, need official documentation, etc.)

Dream bike:
Build my own Speed Pedelec bike using a Stealth Futr frame, a 2.000W - 4.000W hub motor, battery to pack to go for 40 - 50km with me pedalling.

Problem:
For a speed pedelec you officially need an official certificate of conformity (COC). So if you build one yourself, you need to bring it a technical inspection (homologation) to get official documentation, wich is definatly not common, and could be tricky/expensive and take a long time. Also possible that you just don't get the certificate and end up with a bike that you can't legally ride on the public road.

Alternative option:
I could also buy a Speed Pedelec wich is available on the market here today. But these can be very expensive and most look like a normal bike (I wanted to build something different, my own bike). After some looking around I found a GRACE ONE bike, it's limited to 45kmph and has a 1300W motor. Although it does have a throttle the reseller confirmed that it will be OK for Speed Pedelec useage (I assume they add a sensor on the crank to check if you are pedalling) and it comes with a COC. I kind of like the looks of the bike.

When I google for these bikes to find some feedback I couldn't find a lot, only reviews of the specs without actually using the bike. I did found a thread on here, people were not too positive of this bike because of its price. But I found a discounted bike from 2016 (new), for just 3.000€.. which look to me to be a pretty damn bargain. Most other bikes are more expensive and have only 250W or 500W motors.

Questions (finally):
- Is there someone on these forums who has experience getting the Certificate of Conformity for DIY bike in Europe? (preferable from Belgium)
- Do you think the Grace One bike is a good deal for 3.000€?

The Futr frame alone is about 1.000€ (without shipping, import taxes), so add a motor, controller, battery, wheels, brakes, etc... and I think it will be around 4.000€.

Thanks for the collective wisdom of Endless Sphere!

 

[USAEBIKECO]

Build your own. Its not hard. Its more rewarding, and you know how to fix it should something need to be replaced.

 

[michielk]

Hi,

Thanks for your reply, but this is not an answer to any of my specific questions.

Yes, building my own bike would be my preference, even if it ends up being more expensive, as I really like/love building stuff (motorcycles, woodworking projects, etc.). But this bike would be intended to use on the public roads, so I want to be sure I will be allowed to take it onto the public road before I start this project. I'm looking for anybody who has experience with this issue and can confirm if it is easy to obtain a COC from a DIY ebike build.

thanks

 

[neptronix]

You will always get a better deal building things yourself. It's just like computers.. if you shop around and build it yourself, you get better performance per dollar because there's less middlemen you're paying for. Or, for the same performance, you get a lower cost. Pick your poison.

I don't know about your legal issues. US resident here.

 

[MadRhino]

Places where ebike laws are strict and enforced, are a problem when building your own. If I was living in such area, I would start with a quality ebike from the local market, and mod it for better performance. The police knows the ebike models that are sold locally, and they will not draw attention unless you ride like a fool. A custom made bike always draw attention, even when it is legal.

 

[LewTwo]

You have probably already seen this but just in case: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMvQPwU4OjE

I spent years building computers (my first one was built on a piece of 1/4 inch plywood and the CPU was an 8088) and wound up doing it professionally. The market has matured and I would be foolish to do it today as I can get an off the shelf machine that meets my requirements, is better integrated and costs less than anything I can put together from scratch. That being said I might add RAM, change the hard drive and definitely replace the Windows OS with Linux 8)

I am in the DIY ebike crowd but where I live the laws are not as restrictive and I do not like derailleur chain systems. The ebike market is starting to mature and the Grace bikes "look" like solidly built well integrated systems. If you can find one that suits your requirements at a price that you find acceptable then it is probably a very good choice.

 

[d8veh]

Building your own s-pedelec is not really an option. IIRC, they need type approval, which would cost too much.

There's no difference between a lot of the restricted 250w crank-drive bikes and their 350w s-pedelec versions. It's only software settings. If you want to get the same speed, you can fit a hidden tuning dongle, which tricks the software into releasing the speed limit. They cost about €130 - €150. On the bikes with Bosch Performance CX motors, you can release the speed limit at no cost by repositioning the speed sensor behind the pedal and sticking a magnet to the back of the pedal so that it measures cadence instead of wheel-speed, but you don't get the correct spped and distance on the LCD when you do that.

You can also modify many of the cheaper Chinese e-bikes that have hub-motors. The cheaper they are, the easier it is to do. At a cost of about €400, you can change the battery and controller from 36v to 48v, which increases the speed and power by 33% and gives you control of the speed limit, which you can set to whatever you want up to the motor's maximum. A typical restricted 250w 25 km/h one, would normally go to at least 43km/h.

You have to think about beeing seen going over the 25km/h limit. If you go 40km/h every day along the same cycle route overtaking all the cyclists an e-bikers on 25km/h bikes, someone might get annoyed and report you. On normal roads, nobody will notice as long as you don't go nuts.

 

[dogman dan]

I agree with the above, because of the law situation where you are, (Belgium?) you need to be obviously in compliance. Not worth it to DIY, then try to get them to let you put a plate on it.

Go with the same thing your wife has or similar, but the speed version. For longer range, add panniers to carry spare batteries. You can easily do a few mods, like extra wires to parallel your extra batteries. Otherwise, hop on the gasser when you want real speed.

A 28 mph e bike is still damn fast, and plenty fun to ride. If that does not satisfy, then get on the gasser. Sounds a bit like where you are, you can't even really let that thing out of its cage too much, and the same thing would apply to an illegal 40 mph club e bike.

Not saying don't build a second e bike that is illegal. just saying start with one that is legal. Once you have that plate for the other bike,, well,,,, :wink:

 

[Dauntless]

Hey, it's not just ES, you ask a specific question online, you'll get a general discussion of the subject matter. To be expected.

http://www.bike-eu.com/whitepapers/whitepaper-eu-regulations

If you just want to build, I don't think buying will be good enough for you. Especially since they're so damn expensive. But will what you build be any good? https://www.rqriley.com/xr2.htm That thing doesn't look like it would handle so well. I think the only questions are if you can find what you want for sale and if you're ready to pay what they want. That's how YOU decide what to do. Nobody here will have a good enough answer on that. The whitepaper might do you more good than anything said here.

Also, we're looking forward to having you fill us in on your adventure. We aren't aware of anyone here who's gone through what you're about to go through, specifically at least. I'm in California, a few miles from Disneyland. Mostly it's a curiosity but I'm wanting to hear how this works out. Not that I expect to ever register a bike in Belgium.

Bonne chance avec le minivrai.

 

[michielk]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the feedback. In the meantime I have contacted the governments department responsible for registration/homologation and a large reseller in Belgium. At the moment they do not have a procedure to officially register a bike without a CoC from the manufacturer. Because this wasn't mandatory before, there are a bunch of people who at the moment own an expensive speed pedelec which can not be used on the road legally. The government should be making a proposition to solve this issue by the end of this year, most likely there will be a vehicle inspection where you can have your bike inspected once and receive an document that replaces an offical CoC. Depending on the requirements (perhaps an invoice for the bike predating the change in rules) I can check if I can legally build and drive a bike for the road.

In the mean time I'll stick with manually pedalling like an cave man.

I'll keep you guys posted.

 

[d8veh]

At the moment AFAIK, there is no inspection of pedelecs or speed pedelecs after purchase. What about finding a cheaper Chinese one and swapping a few parts. All the main components (motor, controller, battery, display) are modular and can be mixed and matched. Is there anything to stop you from making such changes?

 

[michielk]

Well yes, if you change a motor then the COC is no longer valid. COC literally means the vehicle is exactly build like the vehicle that was approved for production. Nobody will notice untill you get into a serious accident and the insurance does some research...

 

[wineboyrider]

Kahlkoff makes a fine line of EU compliance e-bikes that are good quality.

 

[d8veh]

Kahlkoff makes a fine line of EU compliance e-bikes that are good quality.

You should keep clear of their Impulse motors, which have had all sorts of reliability problems reported. Check-out the German and UK pedelecs forums.

 

[craneplaneguy]

Build it yourself, the warm fuzzy feeling you'll get when it works is worth all the aggravation of building. Cheaper also. This holds true for most things, I just put a different engine in my homebuilt airplane, and while doing it was envying the guys who fly "store bought." But I just got through test flying it (and spotted and saved on the GPS 3 different mountain trail rides) and I got the warm fuzzy that makes it all worthwhile. This will continue too, not a one time thing, in case of the ebike 'every time someone asks about mine and I tell them I built it, it feels good. Buying store bought is for pussies, real men build their own. :wink:

 

[ScooterMan101]

If you lived in the U.S. or some other Country that does not have such stupid restrictions I would write about you converting a bike .
But since you are where you are , and are concerned about the COC there.
I say just get a bike that is COC , like the New Specialized Turbo Vado.

It is 250 watt complaint, and since it is a mid-drive the 250 watts is more useful than 250 watts on a hub motor.
also
Like most every Comercial E-Bike you can/there will be someone in the E.U. that will figure out how to do some mods to the electrics, to get a little more power.

Here are a couple of links ...

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/men/bikes/turbo/urban/turbo-vado

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQMEU7Fx3Kg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvJSJUFBf10

Well yes, if you change a motor then the COC is no longer valid. COC literally means the vehicle is exactly build like the vehicle that was approved for production. Nobody will notice untill you get into a serious accident and the insurance does some research...