Dreaming about an Insight-EV

[Ecky]

Hi all! I registered on here a while back and had a few questions, but for the most part I'm a fresh face, and relatively new to electrics.

Lately I've been thinking a lot about doing an EV conversion with my Insight, or a second Insight, and I've just started doing reading and research on it. I think it makes the most sense to tackle the least complex issues first, and build my understanding as I go along.

The first thing I'm going to inform myself on is in batteries. I assume a battery pulled from a mass-production EV would probably be the easiest and cheapest, but please correct me if I'm way off here.


Looking at the (old) Volt's pack, it appears to weigh about 400lbs and have a capacity of ~18.4kwh (0.046kwh/lb). The 24kwh Leaf pack, best I can tell, is ~650lbs (0.037kwh/lb). The 30kwh Leaf pack is ~700lbs (0.043kwh/lb). The new Bolt's pack is ~60kwh, and ~960lbs (0.063kwh/lb).

Given that these donor vehicles are much larger, heavier and less aerodynamic than an Insight-EV would be, I have only a vague idea how to estimate range, but I don't think I could get by with less than 150 miles of range, and 200 would be better; I regularly do 110+ miles of driving in a day.

Back of the envelope:

The Insight weighs about 1850lbs. With engine, transmission and battery removed, it's down to about 1550lbs. I'm going to assume an electric motor and controller will weigh in the area of 100lbs (please correct me if this is way off). If I were to drop in a Leaf 30kwh pack, rated at 107 miles in the Leaf, I'd be up to around 2350lbs (give or take), which is about a thousand pounds lighter than the Leaf is.

The Leaf has a CdA of 6.94, whereas the Insight has a CdA of 5.00, 28% less. Once the ICE is gone, I can probably almost completely seal up the front of the car, and completely seal the bottom, I can optimistically get that 5.00 down to ~4.00, which is ~42% less drag when compared with the Leaf. With this in mind, getting 150 miles out of a 30kwh pack seems pretty reasonable, especially if I drive with economy in mind.

The old Leaf pack is probably the easiest and cheapest per kwh to acquire but (if the numbers I've found are correct) easily has the worst energy storage per weight. It might or might not give me my desired 150 miles of range. Bolt packs will probably not start showing up for several years, but are far and above the best in terms of kwh per weight.

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Another factor I need to consider is size. Ideally, I'd like to pull the Insight's fuel tank and bolt an aluminum box under the car where it was, and pack it full of cells, with potentially some spillover into the Insight's cargo box or hatch area, which is approximately 4' x 4' with the existing IMA system removed. It's likely I could fit an existing leaf battery module whole into the hatch of the Insight intact, but that would be very inelegant.

~

All of that is largely mechanical, but simply stuffing a battery into a car chassis an EV does not make. It would be nice if I could simply transplant (mostly intact) all of the electronics and instrumentation from an existing EV (preferably from a complete doner vehicle) into an Insight, but I have no idea how feasible this is. I have little experience or knowledge of 3rd party motor controllers, what the advantages and disadvantages would be, but I'm highly mechanically inclined and have a fair background in programming, and I'm certain I can eventually puzzle it out.

I've come here to get some ideas on how to make an elegant long-range EV out of an Insight, which as a gasoline-powered vehicle, suits my needs very well. I don't even know where to begin when it comes to motor controllers and instrumentation, but ES seemed a good place to start.

 

[Warren]

You and me both. Several people have started Insight conversions over the years. The only one I know of who actually finished, and did it well, is Mark Bishop. He converted a Vectrix maxiscooter to lithium, and later an Insight.

http://www.insightcentral.net/forums/honda-insight-forum-1st-gen-discussion/56978-all-electric-2000-honda-insight.html

http://registry.evtv.me/

"I have converted my 2000 Insight to all electric. I removed all of the gas-electric equipment from the front and rear of the car, and replaced it with the following:

1. An HPEV AC 50 three phase electric motor and controller
2. A surplus Lithium 'Better Place' battery (33 modules, 16.5 kWh) [He used 33 of 48, of the same modules as the Leaf battery pack]
3. A dc-dc converter, for 12vdc power
4. A Manzanita charger

I removed all gears except 2nd from the manual transmission. There is no clutch. Reverse is just a flip of a switch. The car has 're-gen' when you let off of the gas, so you don't need the mechanical brakes except for creeping along, as at a stop light.
The heater has been replaced by a ceramic heater that runs on the Lithium 'pack' battery. I'm still working on the A/C unit. It's going to use a Master Flux Sierra compressor that is powered by the pack battery. The car weighs 1931# including the 400# battery. The conversion was done in July 2014. The car has about 3500 miles that include a cross country trip from my home in Clinton TN to Missouri. While attending the EVCCON convention in Cape Girardeau it ran the 1/8th mile in 11.755 seconds with a terminal speed of 64 mph. It also made 84 hp @3750 rpm on the dyno. The max range depends on the speed, but it's about 100 miles @ 60 mph consuming energy at a rate of 160 watt hours per mile.

Here is some more information about my electric Insight . My location is in Clinton TN. Range is about 100 miles, full to empty, @ 60 mph and no heater. Top speed is unknown, but the maximum motor speed, 8000 rpm, occurs at 92 mph. The highest speed I've seen is 84 mph. Charge time is selectable, but the fastest is about 3 hours from empty to full on 240 volts. Maximum HP of 84 ( measured on a dyno at the Missouri meet), occurs @ 3750 rpm. The motor can supply 120 ft lb of torque from 0-3000 rpm, and then drops off as rpm builds. Some cost figures are:

1. 2000 Insight $3000
2. Surplus battery, $3600
3. Motor and controller $3700
4. Battery charger, $2800
5. DC-DC converter $170

 

[liveforphysics]

You power numbers are way off. I've dyno'd 3 insights now, none have broken 50whp. Also, as the electric motors assist is completely over before the ICE's power peak, it makes no difference in peak dyno power with motor assist or not. The motor assist does make a tremendous improvement in the low/mid range.

The last 2 insights I gave away are full EVs now, and make a fantastic efficient EV chassis. They are not nearly as aero slippery as Honda claimed, but not awful.

 

[Ecky]

My car already has a fully underbody panel and 90% grille block. On gasoline alone, I'm seeing 100-125mpg cruising at 50mph in good weather. Being able to fully close off the front and clean up the underbody should get me a bit further in reducing drag.

There's a project over on InsightCentral for a lithium replacement of the Insight's stock pack that I've considered, allowing for full electric assist until the battery is depleted, and a 24kwh Leaf pack should provide more than 2 hours of continuous 10kw (full) assist, allowing the gas engine to effectively idle down the road. However due to the nature of Honda's hybrid system it's not possible to run on electric alone, which I'd prefer to do. I may keep a second Insight around for road trips but I'd like to get off fossil fuels for my daily commute.

It's interesting to me to see the Insight's transmission was left in-place in Mark Bishop's build.

I seem to remember reading somewhere about how the Rav4 Hybrid's rear 67HP electric motor is relatively cheap and abundant because nobody knows what to do with them, and might be made to work in this kind of application.

 

[liveforphysics]

My car already has a fully underbody panel and 90% grille block. On gasoline alone, I'm seeing 100-125mpg cruising at 50mph in good weather. Being able to fully close off the front and clean up the underbody should get me a bit further in reducing drag.

There's a project over on InsightCentral for a lithium replacement of the Insight's stock pack that I've considered, allowing for full electric assist until the battery is depleted, and a 24kwh Leaf pack should provide more than 2 hours of continuous 10kw (full) assist, allowing the gas engine to effectively idle down the road. However due to the nature of Honda's hybrid system it's not possible to run on electric alone, which I'd prefer to do. I may keep a second Insight around for road trips but I'd like to get off fossil fuels for my daily commute.

It's interesting to me to see the Insight's transmission was left in-place in Mark Bishop's build.

I seem to remember reading somewhere about how the Rav4 Hybrid's rear 67HP electric motor is relatively cheap and abundant because nobody knows what to do with them, and might be made to work in this kind of application.

It's not a very good motor, and it's connected to the crankshaft of one of Honda's all time worst ICE's.

Nissan Leaf motor/transaxle assembly would be a realistic and useful swap.

 

[Ecky]

It's not a very good motor, and it's connected to the crankshaft of one of Honda's all time worst ICE's.

Nissan Leaf motor/transaxle assembly would be a realistic and useful swap.

Would I be able to use the Leaf's motor controller / computers, or would that all need to be 3rd party?

 

[hal2000]

I have a 2000 insight with a blown motor and have also considered converting it to full electric, but the fact that I can currently buy a used 2014 leaf for under 10k has made it difficult to justify the effort and expense.

 

[steveo]

I have a 2000 insight with a blown motor and have also considered converting it to full electric, but the fact that I can currently buy a used 2014 leaf for under 10k has made it difficult to justify the effort and expense.

+1

 

[Warren]

Yes. The prices on used OEM EVs coming off lease it ridiculously low, if you can get by on the short range. If you need more range, you probably aren't going to get it, with a DIY, as cheaply as a new Bolt, when they become available.