EV "fuel" taxes are coming

flathill

100 kW
Joined
Jul 6, 2010
Messages
1,281
Even though 16CFR309 Non-Liquid Alternative Fuel Placarding is
not currently enforced, in light of upcoming changes to
NIST HB130/HB44
method of sale of electricity as a fuel,
placard requirements will be enforced

http://www.nist.gov/pml/wmd/upload/NIST-HB-130-2014-Uniform-Method-of-Sale-Electrical-Vehicle-Fuel.docx

Now you know why SuperChargers are free forever.

The government (oil companies) will find a way to tax EV fuel to lessen the price advantage. They know there is no way in hell we will allow gps tracking so all road taxes are per mile. Remember they will sell this as helping the consumer to know they are not being ripped off. We want to make sure you get the exact amount of "fuel" you paid for.

The next step will be to make it illegal to fuel you full size EV at home using a standard outlet. Cars will no longer charge from standard outlets. The car will have DRM and wireless communication with the chrager/grid. It must be an EVSE with smart meter due to fire and grid concerns. That won't work so the next step will be to install the tax machine on the car so it monitors how much fuel you use. We will stop them. Off-grid way of life.

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https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/11/drm-cars-will-drive-consumers-crazy

DRM in Cars Will Drive Consumers Crazy

Forget extra cupholders or power windows: the new Renault Zoe comes with a "feature" that absolutely nobody wants. Instead of selling consumers a complete car that they can use, repair, and upgrade as they see fit, Renault has opted to lock purchasers into a rental contract with a battery manufacturer and enforce that contract with digital rights management (DRM) restrictions that can remotely prevent the battery from charging at all.

We've long joined makers and tinkerers in warning that, as software becomes a part of more and more everyday devices, DRM and the legal restrictions on circumventing it will create hurdles to standard repairs and even operation. In the U.S., a car manufacturer who had wrapped its onboard software in technical restrictions could argue that attempts to get around those are in violation of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA)—specifically section 1201, the notorious "anti-circumvention" provisions. These provisions make it illegal for users to circumvent DRM or help others do so, even if the purpose is perfectly legal otherwise. Similar laws exist around the world, and are even written into some international trade agreements—including, according to a recently leaked draft, the Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement.

Since the DMCA became law in 1998, Section 1201 has resulted in countless unintended consequences. It has chilled innovation, stifled the speech of legitimate security researchers, and interfered with consumer rights. Section 1201 came under particular fire this year because it may prevent consumers from unlocking their own phones to use with different carriers. After a broadly popular petition raised the issue, the White House acknowledged that the restriction is out of line with common sense.

The problem extends beyond inconvenience. In plenty of cases, DRM has led to users losing altogether the ability to watch, listen to, read, or play media that can't be "authenticated." Video games with online components now routinely reach an end-of-life period where the company providing the authentication decides it's no longer worth it to operate the servers. That raises the frightening possibility of a company like Renault deciding that it's not cost-effective anymore to verify new batteries—and leaving car owners high and dry.

And these are all just the problems with the DRM running as expected. Unfortunately, the intentional restrictions created by DRM can also create security vulnerabilities that can be exploited by other bad actors. The most prominent example may be the "rootkit" that Sony included on music CDs and which led in some cases to further malware infection. The stakes may be even higher when it comes to cars. Security researchers uncovering security problems in cars already face restrictions on publishing; that stands to get worse as DRM enters the picture.

As our friends at iFixit say, if you can't fix it, you don't own it. Users need the right to repair the things they buy, and that is incompatible with blanket restrictions on circumventing DRM.

Copyright maximalists like to point to the 1201 safety valve—a rulemaking procedure to identify narrow exemptions. But the process happens every three years in the Copyright Office, and it's pretty dysfunctional: the exemptions require extensive work, must be justified from scratch each time, and have no established appeal process. Permission to "jailbreak" cars can't even be considered until 2015, and even if it is granted, consumers may be wary to invest in a new car if their right to repair it could be revoked three years later.

There's a better way, but it requires legislation. Representative Zoe Lofgren and a group of bipartisan sponsors have proposed the Unlocking Technology Act, to limit the anti-circumvention provisions to cases where there is actual infringement. That's a common sense change that is long overdue.

More fundamentally, though, users must push back on the creeping imposition of DRM in more and more places. As EFF Fellow and former staff member Cory Doctorow has noted, computers are increasingly devices that we depend on for our own health and safety. It's critically important, then, that consumers actually own our stuff. Stay tuned: We’ll be pushing hard on this issue on many fronts in the coming year, and we’ll need your help.
 
Come and get my PV solar panels coppers! I laugh at your taxes!
HA!
L
 
Haha you won't be laughing when you get pulled over and they ask "where did you get that fuel (charge) sir"

Think it can't happen? Ask the couple who went to jail for filling up their mercedes diesel with vegetable oil from the local walmart. Car impounded and fined for not paying fuel taxes. This outlet is for residential use only! Kinda like the

I don't think they will be able to stop us this time around with EVs becuse we are going full indie....I'm just playing really but not really but really

It's like bitcoin. The gov hates bitcoin but knows there is no way to stop it so they have to play along...blow the bubble super big for a couple more years. When it goes mainstream then they will then pop the bubble. The only way to destroy bitcoin is to destroy trust in it. It's too early to do that now until the regular joe starts using bitcoin. The event has to be huge to crush bitcoin. Wait and strike. The best part is they will know when the strike is making even more money. These guys are good so watch out. They will be laughing all the way to the bank with me...hahaha
 
Oh, I run my gas-powered electric generator Orificer..."
:lol:
 
Officer D: my retina scanner detects you are lying. Please wait a second until we get an automated warrant for an outside the premise search. Sir we just sent a drone with full spectrum imaging (it blocks private parts in your pants so it is all good doo) to your house. It appears we are not getting a signal from your charger. Sir stay right there and keep your hands on the wheel where I can see em!

Did you see the gov is now collecting records on all people who buy books to beat lie detectors. For real. It is unreal.
 
flathill said:
We will stop them. Off-grid way of life.

EV 'fuel' taxes are certainly inevitable.

Going truly off-grid is a response, but an extremely difficult one in practice.
Example: most if not all "off-gridders" will use expensive, energy-intensive road infrastructure... hence, they are not truly "off-grid".
And road building / maintenance is in part funded by fuel taxes.
So... if you use the roads, is it really wise to dodge those particular taxes?

Analogous to the diesel fuel situation. Believe diesel for farm use is significantly cheaper
than for road use... because the taxes aren't applied. Equally, the state is unhappy to find
people topping up their car tanks from farm diesel supplies. It's a revenooer issue.

EV 'fuel taxes' on bikes? I'm not stressing. Bikes are so much more efficient than
multi-ton road-hog four wheelers (Prius / Leaf / Volt / Tesla / etc) , that fuel taxes on them ultimately would amount to pocket change.
Even trikes or ultralight 4-wheelers... just don't burn that much energy compared with what's out there on the road today.

Others may disagree, but this is my perception.
Happy to change it if anyone can educate me as to what I've got wrong.

By the way, I despise the DMCA. What a dreadful piece of legislative dreck.
Have seldom seen anything more open to abuse.
 
Fuel tax's ??
"The man" may not even bother with them.
Already for some (many ?) road tolls are a far bigger cost than fuel ( petrol + Tax !)
Here in Sydney, a daily commute to the City and back home can cost $25+ in tolls and <$5 in fuel.
so the man will just install more toll points .
 
It is about control. Nothing more. Right now the economy is easily controlled by controlling global oil prices. The economy can be modeled exactly using electrical circuits. They found by shocking the system with oil price spikes it allows them to see how the system works. They fear losing this control, which is why you see a big push for hydrogen still. Even though it makes no sense. In any case it doesn't matter as they know they are losing the battle. A new generation of unknown outsiders has already gained control and they are just realizing it. Too late
 
Hillhater said:
Fuel tax's ??
... $25+ in tolls...

Ouch!
Knowing how govt's think... they'll tax the roads + tax the fuel.

"heres my advice to those who die, declare the pennies on your eyes, cause I'm the taxman..." - G. Harrison
 
What they should do is just tax birth, since the largest carbon effect a person can have is to procreate.

DONE.

(It just has to be a large enough tax that it covers any use of roads that the person may incur in a lifetime spread across the entire population) :D
 
Please just don't let them think of taxing "events that could result in procreation".
(Even a small tax could mount up... if you're lucky.)
 
Fuel and road use taxes don't actually cover the associated wear and tear. Motor vehicles are subsidized and the more miles, the more the total subsidy. Bicyclists pay more towards roads than the motorists who yell at them to "get off my road".
 
gogo said:
Fuel and road use taxes don't actually cover the associated wear and tear. Motor vehicles are subsidized and the more miles, the more the total subsidy.

Maybe so in the US, ( because you have low fuel and motor tax's) but in much of Europe and in Oz the motorist tax's pay for roads, as well as half the health , education, and public transport subsidies !
 
Ummm... I'll suggest most of the road cost, maintenance, etc etc, is caused by larger, heavier vehicles?

So I vote for a "progressive" tax. I heavier your vehicle weights (or might weigh), the more tax you pay (through the nose, ass, wherEVer)
L

Edit: PS, and below some certain (lighter) weight, your local "friendly" (?) gov pays you some amount (coin or bills, in your hand, plus maybe a handshake, or at least a pat on the back. Annual awards dinner? - paid for out of gas taxes, of course).
L
 
footloose said:
flathill said:
We will stop them. Off-grid way of life.

EV 'fuel' taxes are certainly inevitable.

Going truly off-grid is a response, but an extremely difficult one in practice.
Example: most if not all "off-gridders" will use expensive, energy-intensive road infrastructure... hence, they are not truly "off-grid".
And road building / maintenance is in part funded by fuel taxes.
So... if you use the roads, is it really wise to dodge those particular taxes?

2083760_5009105_b.jpg


Thomas-Shepard.jpg


Halbach drive
 
Yay! Go Lady Go! I love a good troll... Oooops... I meant to say *toll*... for larger vehicles, of course.
 
LockH said:
Come and get my PV solar panels coppers! I laugh at your taxes!
HA!
L

dream on.
when it comes to new & innovate forms of taxation i can count on the centre of the universe as the very first place in the world to impose a solar tax.

if you can dodge a wrench, then you can dodge a ball.
and if you can tax a sidewalk, then you can tax a panel.
aiui it wuz your loveable scoundrel mayor who defeated this legalized thievery & attack on personal freedom of movement.

They’re taxing you depending on the amount of garbage you throw out. They’re taxing you when you sell your house. They’re taxing you when you register your car. But will they actually have the nerve to tax you just for standing on the sidewalk? City Hall may have another wallet wallop coming for bar and club owners, as it ponders charging to have customers wait outside on Toronto-owned sidewalks to get into establishments.
 
"... the centre of the universe"? Oh goody, must remember never to travel to right ascension 17h45m40.04s, Dec -29° 00' 28.1" (at the new standard equinox of J2000.0 epoch). Thank the ebike gods...
L
 
Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh said:
LockH said:
Come and get my PV solar panels coppers! I laugh at your taxes!
HA!
L

dream on.
when it comes to new & innovate forms of taxation i can count on the centre of the universe as the very first place in the world to impose a solar tax..[/color]

I think the Brits had a "Solar" tax a bit before that, ( 1696) in the form of the "Window Tax". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Window_Tax
A levy on how many windows you had in your house. .. a "sunlight tax" ?

As i remember , the UK also has still, a tax ( local Rating system?) on the roof area of a building in order to charge for the amount of rain water that is directed into the storm water drainage system ! .. So its a sort of "Rain Tax" ! :shock:

So, dont be surprised if "the Man" finds new ,& innovate, ways of taxing your EV, Solar, Bio gas, or any other idea you may have of avoiding existing tax's ! :cry:
 
Yah, mess with their "expense budget" (spent on eg food), and ya mess with "The Man" ("politicians", and a lot more eg taxpayers aka voters...) But if ya can win over the taxpayer (wallet), their "hearts and minds will follow", I suspect. Followed closely by the "politicians", hat in hand. Anyway, some of us (won't mention any names, to protect the guilty... hehe), carry in their back pocket cards/ads from several different area ebike (and ebike parts) sellers. But see the thread here on ES "List (Thread) of folks that HATE the electric bicycle", here:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=53226

But it's a fight I intend to win (FOR the electric bicycle), with the help of millions of "friends", on ES and around the world.
 
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