KONA Entourage Build Thread - middrive (pic heavy)

good luck in finding that source of noise. Some dough or hard fat between things where it should not rub sometimes helps to find the reason.

oder was anderes wie wachs? was du halt da hast

EDIT: There could be a particle in the gears, this causes the same kind of noise. try turning the planet carrier by hand to find the "obstacle"
 
100% correct. only the sun gear can be out of center as it changes it's position because if the heat bridge. and it's really difficult to check if it's centered. be did very precise work on the lathe and drilling the holes in then side cover to fix the heat bridge. but only a small offset can be really bad.
i installed new planet gears and did some tests and the gears show some wear. can't compare it to other gears as i don't have any atm.
also the axle is not super smooth to turn with the gears installed. so is suspect this to be the problem.
i removed the gear set and let the magnet bowl rotate alone. it gives some vibration as well so i think it's not 100% round or weighted.
 
Screen Shot 2013-12-21 at 9.38.05 AM.jpg

Ouch that rub is too noisy. It sounds like it is worse now with both covers on and it also sounds like it is now a rub not just a hum.

What helped me for removing any rubbing noises with my conversion is to put a side thrust to the axle and the clutch assembly away from the mag bowl side of the motor and then keep the axle and clutch assembly over to the right side of the motor so there is no friction between side covers and or the planet spindles and the mag bowl. Also you need to be careful here if I remember right as if you move the clutch and planets to far to the right you may lose full engagement with the little gear that drives the planets. This little gear I am talking about is the smallest of the gears in the motor the one that is attached to the mag bowl. Its OK I feel to have the planets not running exactly centered on the gears it touches but not too much off center. I am talking side to side centered on the engagment of the sun and planets and this little gear attached to the mag bowl.

Also not sure if this makes any sense but I machined up a large silica bronze bushing between the drive sprocket adapter (my drive sprocket adaptor is shown in this picture) and the outside of the hub shell, then I thrust the axle from the left side of the bike so the axle and the clutch assembly are thrust to the right side of the motor so the clutch does not rub on mag bowl. Then while holding the left side of the axle up tight against the left hub plate I push the drive side sprocket adaptor back inbound up against the bronze washer before I tighten the drive sprocket adaptor to the axle (grease this washer also). Then tighten up my grub screws to the keyway for locking the drive sprocket in place and keeping the axle and clutch assembly centered where I want it. This kind of keeps a thrusting pressure on the whole of the axle and the clutch to keep it to the right side of the motor.

Make sure depending on your spacing (depending on how thick your heat bridge is) between the motor covers that nothing is of course rubbing on the inside of the right plate. If I remember right I did away with the circlip totally that is just inside the inner side of the right hub cover but as I made my own axle I am not sure if this is applicable to your build. I am thinking back several months now but this is my best memory of how I sorted out my rubbing issues. If there is any side to side play I think, even if its quiet with no loads you still be get some chain line or torque issues trying to pull the axle outbound to one side or the other depending of chain line etc so its important I feel to have the axle and all that is fixed to it spinning with out rubbing and also so it will not get pulled to one side or the other under loads which could cause you further noise when riding.

Hope this makes sense and I want to say this is just my opinion and hope it helps.

I am sure this is very hard to follow by the way I am trying to explain this but it difficult to remember and also I find it hard to clearly express my reasoning here.
 
Hi Izeman

I have re read my previous post and made a few edits which may help understand things a bit better but I will send you a PM with my phone number and it may be good to talk on the phone so I can explain myself better if this will help.

My bike is dead in the water right now as my battery has packed it in with water damage.....long story but it got wet. I should have a new pack for it in a few weeks or so but I can not run a test or show you any video's at this time. I have a few video's on my build thread but just the bike in motion nothing close up of the motor spinning.

I think the best way to make any sense of what I am trying to say with the spacing and rubbing issues you almost have to have the motor in hand while reading the comments I have made. Good luck and I will shoot you my phone number if it will help.

Wayne
 
I drilled the holes for the heatbridge a bit larger, so I can move the stator a bit. Then I cast a heatbridge from putty, using the original axle with it's centering groove. This way the heatbridge is as well centered as the stock axle. The BPM has some groove in sideplate that is perfect to push in some putty. I have no idea if this is possible with the MAC as well, maybe you could try it.

file.php


forget the metal heatbridge and the holes on this pic, i didn't use it in the end since it was not centered well enough for my taste
file.php
 
@crossbreak: i thought that i could not make the drill holes bigger, as i won't be able to fix the side cover afterwards. but then i found a solution: make the holes bigger, insert screws just to stop the stator from moving, let it turn - it will center by itself. then tighten the screws a bit. once i find the perfect location it can drill new holes from the outside of the case and cut new threads. this way i will have the in the perfect location.

and guess what: MUCH MUCH better. WAY LESS noise. i guess what you hear now is the regular noise of spur-toothed gears. they always "sing" a bit.

the axle turns freely now and turns longer after you release the throttle.

here's the video:

[youtube]t0b_FaKzNes[/youtube]
 
Izeman it still sounds like something is not totally happy in there. One more thing I have thought of ......not sure if you pulled your stator out of the mag bowl during the conversion. I did my conversion with out needing to remove the stator from the mag bowl but I know some folks to take the stator out of the mag bowl for the conversion. There is of course a wavy washer in there between the stator and the inside of the mag bowl that needs to stay in there even after the conversion. Is there any chance that wavy washer is causing some of the noise? You would need to pull things apart to look in there to see if there is any rubbing marks or shavings I guess. I did however have to pull the stator out of the mag bowl for a hall sensor fix up but I did not need to for my conversion.

Did you pull the stator from the mag bowl during your conversion?

Maybe things were sounding quieter with the side covers off because when the side covers are tightened up it puts a squeeze on things making this wavy washer make noise between the mag bowl and the stator. I am sure each conversion will be slightly different as heat bridges may very in thickness, cir-clip locations, custom axles etc so one persons source of rubbing may not be some one elses.

I got your PM so I will be in touch after Christmas if things don't get sorted out for you.
 
Hi,

This thread might help:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=12687

Pics moved to here:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=12687&start=275#p529837
file.php


And this thread:
Timma2500 said:
This build is long finished Sam, however its soon to be rebuilt on this thread:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=35302
with a better quality gearbox, different motor, electrics and a touch more power.
file.php


Just slowly collecting some parts now :)


Paul :D
 
waynebergman said:
...Did you pull the stator from the mag bowl during your conversion?...
yes i did. i had to because the stator is screwed on from the inside. i know there is a quite large diameter washer inside - which imho is NOT wavy, it's flat. the only wavy one sits on top of the clutch and is a "small" one, same size as the axle. and i did install it. but this can't cause any rubbing as it's a spacer only,a and there is NO movement between the magnet bowl and the inner ring of the stator's bearing. that's more or less the same with ALL bearings, and washers. the washers always only touch the inner ring of the bearing which has no movement in relation to the axle it sits on.
i suspect the washer sitting on top of the sungear causing the rubbing. i will remove it once and see if it helps - just to know the cause. will find a solution afterwards :)
 
Screen Shot 2013-12-23 at 7.45.24 AM.jpg

Here is a photo from Spinning Magnets conversion. Yes yours may be flat I could not remember from when I had mine apart last but Ron referred to it as a spring washer so I was thinking it was maybe wavy as well. All the best with the search, I am sure you will track down the source.
 
Hehe. :) I was unsure about the washer as well, and checked the very same pictures :) But I'm pretty sure it a flat one. However it doesn't mind and all, and I appreciate your help! Just want to make sure we're talking about the same thing km and I didn't mix up anything during assembly. I will take it apart now and see if I can find the cause for rubbing. I'm quite confident.
 
i hope you will find the source where the noise is coming from and i hope its easy to fix too.

how many watt are you going run on this converted MAC?
 
these are reasonable figures.

I did the same centering with my first converted SWXB motors. Didn't really please me. That's why I went for the epoxy putty centering groove. Is there really no way to do so with your MAC? Solves this issue a better way since the screws can't move any more after time :? They did with the SWXB. Tried to solve it after some time, but killed my stator during disassembly :oops: OK, the SWXB had some more issues, that's one reason I went to the BPM, but it's no better than the MAC, this main issue is still the same :roll: Some custom sideplate that already has a centering grove and a heatbridge built-in and that is really good quality would be the best solution. Sadly I don't know anyone who can machine such a thing for a reasonable price. Greenmachine did a fairly nice job.

EDIT: Ok got it, you drilled new/tighter holes after centering. This only works for the MAC+BPM. Good idea though.
 
I think that should be just fine. Mine is similar if I remember right. If you have got the rubbing and noise issues sorted out, you are laughing. Looking forward to hearing about your test rides and you feel on the conversion.
 
so this weekend i started the real work. :)

first of all we had to make a frame gauge to fix the frame. a steel plate and square shaft to fix it

Foto 24.01.14 15 22 51.jpg

then a tube for the seat post and one for the headset to fix both parts once the frame is cut in two.

Foto 24.01.14 17 00 50.jpg

then the frame was cut with a saw

Foto 24.01.14 17 06 08.jpg

the part with the headset was moved 11cm away from the main frame part as this is a small frame, and my aim was to make it a large one.

Foto 24.01.14 17 25 32.jpg

using CAD i constructed the battery box's shape

Foto 24.01.14 17 43 47.jpg
 
today i took some 3mm thick card board (for architects) and started to cut out the parts for the box.
it's always good to do this before you start to cut the metal and weld, as you WILL discover some design flaws, like not being able to route the cables where you wanted to do it, or connectors that are bigger then thought, or just take more space.

Foto 26.01.14 17 50 30.jpg

this is the box with batteries fitted. also one balance board to combine those to a 4p pack is installed to see if all fits, and i can remove and install the batteries.

Foto 26.01.14 18 23 49.jpg
 
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