MAC motor worries

nope. not intentional!!
 
After probing the motor I have found the following:

1. The brown wire (vcc) is shorted to the case of the motor, and therefor the entire bike through the axel, despite this it still shows 5v between it and GND.
2. Blue and Yellow phases work correctly, however, green seems to stay near 5v, not chaning as i spin the motor.
3. Taking side cover off to reveal wiring the green wire is good for continuity from plug to hall sensor.
4. Greens hall sensor appears to have 5v accross the other terminals.

This screams to me damaged hall? But there is NO WAY the motor even got up to temperature to damage these....

Any ideas?
 
Is there ANY chance that you have a CA-DP and plugged the CA-DP from the controller to the hall connector from the motor?

I ask because I made that particular mistake. What that ends up doing is passing the full battery voltage to some of the pins, nuking the hall sensor. It's actually a semi-common occurrence as o00scorpion00o has done the same thing.

I made 2 unsuccessful attempts at repairing the hall sensors. I think that I didn't line them up properly and I don't see instructions anywhere. I just bit the bullet and ordered a sensorless from EM3ev.com (cell_man;Paul) to get it running until I can get some time to try repair attempt #3

Good luck with your MAC. Let us know how it goes.
 
Nope, don't even own one!

Thanks for trying :)

I'm hoping Cellman will help me out. So far the clutch is definitely broken (stuck closed) and this hall problem. Understandable if I had mistreated the motor or had it a long time, but I have literally ran the thing twice and never ran it hard.

Thanks again
 
An ebike motor tester would be a really easy way to quickly tell if your wiring is ok or not. Available from Greentime on Alibaba, Cellman (I think), ?Lyen on this forum or even ebay http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Portable...Electrical_Test_Equipment&hash=item1c27a68753. They are only about $25ish so well worth it. Shame you had bad luck from the outset. Certainly sounded like a stuffed/slipping clutch to me but looks like you may have a couple of issues there.
 
Hi Drummerian,

Just for clarification, as you wanted to bring this into the public domain, I'd just like to make a few things clear, in the public domain. Firstly, you've had the kit for almost 3 months, it was delivered on 19th March according to the tracking info. You ordered a 12 fet 4110, a 72V 40A controller with an 8T Mac. That is hardly the sort of spec I would recommend for a reliable commuter. It's the sort of setup I would rather not sell to be honest. It's the sort of setup most would not sell or sell without a warranty. You started a thread before even contacting me to discuss the issue, in fact the first I heard of the issue was a 1 line email with a link to this thread. I'll give my continued support here on ES rather than by the email like I normally would.

I suggest you try removing the inner motor from the hub, bolt it into the dropout and see if it spins up ok or not. If not and assuming the hall and phase are correctly connected, there is some sort of motor issue. If it does spin up ok, try spinning it up for some time, you could try to load it by forcing a cloth against it to add some drag onto the motor. If you do try adding some drag as I suggest, best to remove the clutch and make sure the motor is firmly bolted into the dropout, you don't want to drag anything into the gears or have it pop out of the dropout.

The clutch should spin freely relative to the shaft in 1 direction and lock in the other direction. If that is not the case, there is some sort of clutch issue. If a clutch fails, it generally locks rather than spins freely in both directions. As you said, you have a spare clutch. My previous suggested test for the motor should give you some idea if you have a motor problem or not. If the motor does not appear to have a problem, but the clutch appears to have an issue, swap the clutch and see what happens. Whilst swapping the clutch you will also have a chance to inspect the keyway that locks the clutch to shaft. A Sheared Keyway was 1 of the possible causes I thought when I heard the motor spinning noisily with no movement of the wheel, several other friendly chaps on ES suggested the same as well. A spare keyway was supplied with the spare clutch and other consumables you would need when swapping a clutch.

Let us all know what you find.

Thanks
Paul
 
cell_man said:
Hi Ian,

Just for clarification, as you wanted to bring this into the public domain, I'd just like to make a few things clear, in the public domain. Firstly, you've had the kit for almost 3 months, it was delivered on 19th March according to the tracking info. You ordered a 12 fet 4110, a 72V 40A controller with an 8T Mac. That is hardly the sort of spec I would recommend for a reliable commuter. It's the sort of setup I would rather not sell to be honest. It's the sort of setup most would not sell or sell without a warranty. You started a thread before even contacting me to discuss the issue, in fact the first I heard of the issue was a 1 line email with a link to this thread. I'll give my continued support here on ES rather than by the email like I normally would.

I suggest you try removing the inner motor from the hub, bolt it into the dropout and see if it spins up ok or not. If not and assuming the hall and phase are correctly connected, there is some sort of motor issue. If it does spin up ok, try spinning it up for some time, you could try to load it by forcing a cloth against it to add some drag onto the motor. If you do try adding some drag as I suggest, best to remove the clutch and make sure the motor is firmly bolted into the dropout, you don't want to drag anything into the gears or have it pop out of the dropout.

The clutch should spin freely relative to the shaft in 1 direction and lock in the other direction. If that is not the case, there is some sort of clutch issue. If a clutch fails, it generally locks rather than spins freely in both directions. As you said, you have a spare clutch. My previous suggested test for the motor should give you some idea if you have a motor problem or not. If the motor does not appear to have a problem, but the clutch appears to have an issue, swap the clutch and see what happens. Whilst swapping the clutch you will also have a chance to inspect the keyway that locks the clutch to shaft. A Sheared Keyway was 1 of the possible causes I thought when I heard the motor spinning noisily with no movement of the wheel, several other friendly chaps on ES suggested the same as well. A spare keyway was supplied with the spare clutch and other consumables you would need when swapping a clutch.

Let us all know what you find.

Thanks
Paul
Click to expand...

Hi Paul,

The reason I brought it to the public domain is to try and resolve my problem as quickly as possible, as you can see from my first post I have nothing against you or your business, just trying to get answers so that I can get enjoying my ebike ASAP :) I apologise I have not found this issue before now, as I am sure you respect ebiking is not my full time job so projects can take some time to go from planning to test stage (especially when building the bike frame from scratch)

The high power controller was simply so I could use the controller more flexibly later in my ebiking life - i've heard the bug bites bad and at some point I may want to go for a more powerful motor setup. Having a controller already would make this easier.

I started a thread, as many often do, to try and get help with some setup of my motor, and help diagnose a problem that I had found. Again, I posted on the forum hoping to get a quick answer and get under way, not because I wanted to cause any disrespect. The email was simply bringing this to your attention so that perhaps you could give me a definitive answer on my problem.

As stated in this topic, I have changed the clutch as the 'old' one was indeed locked solid. Not what I had hoped for after VERY little use. I can only assume that this must be a manufacturing defect.

As also stated, I have now tested all of the motors Hall sensors. The 'green' hall sensor is giving a 5v output even when the motor is spun. The motors behaviour (spinning only a bit then stopping, sometimes not being able to spin up at all...presumably when in a certain position as when i spin slightly by hand it then works again) also points me towards a damaged hall. I accept that you think this controller is overkill for this motor but I havn't even had this motor warm yet, 0.5miles is the max it has covered in my 2 test flights where I wasn't even running hard (including NO dropping off of kerbs, it hurts when you have no suspension and no seat on your trike!).

Tonight I will power the hall sensor portion of the motor without the controller connected. This will hopefully confirm to me if it is a controller issue or a motor issue (on the halls).

I hope I have not offended in any way as this was not my intent. I have only heard great things about you and the service you provide on the forum and thats what gave me the confidence to buy in the first place.
 
Does anyone have knowledge of how the controller works. Eg. Does is use an internal resistor pull up/down on the hall output or is this handled at the motor end of things?
 
Powering up the halls without the controller connected (5v psu) doesn't give any amazing results in terms of voltages out so I imagine that the halls are internally pulled up? Clearly the green phase is doing 'less' than the other phases which at least pulse around when the motor is spun.

So conclusion is that i have a busted hall. How can i go about replacing this? it is very epoxy'ed in.
 
drummerian said:
Powering up the halls without the controller connected (5v psu) doesn't give any amazing results in terms of voltages out so I imagine that the halls are internally pulled up? Clearly the green phase is doing 'less' than the other phases which at least pulse around when the motor is spun.

So conclusion is that i have a busted hall. How can i go about replacing this? it is very epoxy'ed in.
Click to expand...

They are pulled up.

That's why you need to rig a tester with a breadboard or use a prebuilt "ebike tester"
 
Breadboard will be fine (have all the bits at home already. I assume just pull all the outputs to 5v, easy enough. Though I am pretty sure that this dodgy hall seems to be the problem :/

thanks again for the advice :)
 
The halls are easy enough to replace. If the hall circuit board has epoxy covering it, a heat gun and careful scraping/pulling will get most of it off in one sheet. Desolder the hall connections, remove board and then remove the halls again using a bit of heat on the epoxy holding them in and a combinations of brute force. Don't worry about destroying them- in fact you may as well change all three just in case. They don't cost much. Sometimes the old hall pops out leaving the perfect sized hole for the new one. I secured mine in place using Devcon epoxy. I think from memory that the halls I used were Honeywell SS411a's or similar.

Good luck- and really you should get one of those testers- it makes life soooooo much easier.
 
Before you pull the halls look closely at all the solder joints on the hall board. I once had a motor where two of the joints on one hall were slightly bridged with solder.
I was able to scrape a gap with a small screwdriver and the problem was solved.
 
Well Well

I thought I was the only one with this problem

I just got my motor from cellman about a week ago.
I have 2 other motors - a Yescom and a BMS

I bought a 45 amp controller from Greentime on aliexpress. This controller worked great for the Yescom and BMS geared motor - so i thought I would use it for the MAC

I set the bike up, plugged in the hall sensors and phase wires and ran the motor without load --- NO problems. I then took it outside -- and with load , the motor starts off and after 2-3 secs , the motor stops and makes the same noise as on your video!!!!
I then got off the bike -- and the motor runs well without load -- but as soon as there is a load -- the motor makes that terrible noise.

SOLUTION --- i used a YESCOM controller and the MAC motor works perfectly!! except that I can only get 30amps max out!!!

What did you find is wrong???? Is it the controller or the motor???

For me the greentime controller does not work , yet the yescom does ---??? is it the greentime controller programming??? yet the greentime works for the other 2 motors (non MAC)

I was going to order a 40amp controller from em3ev.vom but I am worried that this controller will do the same thing as drummerian??????? why does the yescom work and the greentime doesnt???

What can we do????????
cellman??????
 
Thankyou all for the continued advice. I imagine my reflow station heat gun will do the job in this case. New halls on their way anyway (love free next day Farnell delivery!)...hopefully will be able to get this sorted, though still slightly worried about the clutch, i hope the 'new' one I have doesn't have the same problem.

Will try programming some limits in to the controller, don't know how it's setup by default.

gzmann, are all your controllers running as sensor feedback or do the others use the trapezoidal back emf generated on the phase wires for motor control? Could potentially explain the differences.
 
drummerian said:
Thankyou all for the continued advice. I imagine my reflow station heat gun will do the job in this case. New halls on their way anyway (love free next day Farnell delivery!)...hopefully will be able to get this sorted, though still slightly worried about the clutch, i hope the 'new' one I have doesn't have the same problem.

Will try programming some limits in to the controller, don't know how it's setup by default.

gzmann, are all your controllers running as sensor feedback or do the others use the trapezoidal back emf generated on the phase wires for motor control? Could potentially explain the differences.
Click to expand...

Did you get your mac as a full kit from Paul including controller ?

Paul ships the mac with optimum settings for the mac motor, the one my friend Pat has is set to around 40 amps battery, on 48v Ping that's around 2000 watts. I don't know what phase settings are but they can't be much more than 60-70 amps ?

2 years 3 months later his Mac is still working perfect on stock settings and original old type clutch.

I killed mine ages ago from running 3.5 kw and 100+ amp phase that was the old clutch, but a new clutch didn't make it work right so I gave up in the end. There was a god awful grinding noise and vibration that I couldn't fix.

It was fun, that little motor can put out some incredible power. Funny enough the windings are still perfect but I just don't have a proper place to work to repair it properly. But I was amazed that the stator was still good.

The weakest link now is that tiny keyway, they should use some spline on the axle that fits into the clutch a bit like a cv joint that fits into the hub of a car.

I would love to know though how much abuse the new clutch would take ! :twisted:

Has to be my favourite motor the mac 8T it was a daemon to climb steep hills, I could only imagine an 12 T on 72 volts !

Probably best if you got lots of hills and you want to get up them fast is to use a 12T and 72 volts as the faster speed and slower wind would make it run cooler. Certainly after a few miles of steep climbing the 8T on 48V and 2kw was hot and probably wouldn't take it daily. But slowing down and using cruise and peddling along would help greatly.

The temp sensor would greatly help here and back off the power around 100 C ?

I'm not sure if Paul sells the Cycle analyst V3 yet ? or if he sets up the temp sensor to back down the power if it gets too hot ? that would be really cool.
 
Yep, full kit.

'I would love to know though how much abuse the new clutch would take !' - to me it would seem....not all that much :(

The temp sensor (installed by Paul) is there for the user to do what they will with it, ranges from 0v-1v. Haven't used mine yet as I was only testing up and down the road, motor wasn't even noticeably warm to the touch.

I have only heard great things about the motor, excited to get mine going... :)
 
The second video shows the broken clutch.

Not sure but it is what came with the motor when i purchased it not long ago :)
 
I missed the 2nd vid.

Did you turn up the amps in the controller ?

It took me a long time to wreck the clutch with running 16S LiPo around 58 amp battery and 100+ phase.

The only other way would be too much steep hills or lots of start stop with a heavy load giving full throttle.

Just bad luck I guess, but Paul sells an upgraded mac for not much more with a much beefier clutch. That's the old style clutch you have.
 
I havn't changed anything inside the controller yet.

AFAIK I was getting the latest clutch, if not in the motor at least the spare i ordered at the same time (I had hoped I wouldn't have to use it this soon!)

No steep hills were on my test road.
 
You needed to make a comment regarding the new clutch when you purchase a 2nd clutch, it says that in the description of the clutch.

The upgraded mac kit wasn't much more expensive which would have included the new type clutch.
 
Can you do us a favour? Take the clutch side cover off, lock the wheel with the brake and try spinning the motor up under power (but only very low throttle please).

I'm trying to work out in my head how the clutch is slipping....you should see the magnet can spinning but the three clutch gears should be stationary?

If nothing spins at all but you get that whining noise then yes, you most likely have a hall issue. Easy enough to fix. Frustrating, yes, but fixable.
 
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