Recommendations new 18V ESC?

[Ianhill]

When i had mine to uk i had no dutys to pay, just a conversion charge by paypal for using dollars not pound sterling was around 5 percent extra i think.

Shame america and china hell bent on economic war becuae they both make good stuff, if i import from america cost me more than china and uk and america suppose to be friends lmao.

Corruption runs deep in the west i hate it, sorry to darken the mood hope u both got to grips with it.

Self learn is simple enough it sets the motor parameters through a test spin sequence and jobs done set the throttle high and low points and way to go might not even have to do that if you have a decent throttle fitted stock.

 

[gachot666]

Today, I checked the wiring to see where the throttle is connected and to determine if the throttle might be the problem. After checking, I found that the throttle is fine. It ranges from 0.6V to 4.2V in fine increments, so the throttle isn't the issue; it's the controller.

Additionally, I opened the motor just to inspect it. The motor has a gearbox that looks great. I noticed three hall sensors at the bottom, but I haven't checked the wiring on them yet. I need to identify the power supply to the sensors because there are six wires coming out, and I would expect five: three for each sensor, and positive and negative for the 5V supply. So, I still need to check and test these. If someone is familiar with this motor and knows the wiring, please share.

After that, I have to check my connection to the new controller and then I can rewire everything and hopefully test with the new VESC controller. I have never used VESC Tool, and I have never tuned an electric motor before, so I have no idea how it will go or how complicated it will be to set everything up in VESC Tool.

I will try to do some simple tests with the VESC controller before I rewire everything. It would be ideal if I have enough connectors so I can easily switch between the current and the new controller. As I write this, I realize that I might have some connectors around.

 

[nardcox]

@gachot666, good stuff.

Making it swappable sounds like a good idea, especially if you want to sell it again and take the controller with you to a new bike.

Curious to see if you also need to adjust the battery in any way, there might be a BMS inside that needs something from the controller before it allows power.

 

[Ianhill]

Looks a neat little motor, its an inrunner i can see 6 poles with a metal gearbox don't look to bad should tune well no picture of the rotor though (magnet assembly) proberly just magnets glued and steaked either end on laminated steel sheets and inturn press fit to a splined shaft.

The controller will self tune the motor in a setup process theres manual tuning available but its mostly not needed only once i had a stubborn scooter hub motor that just wouldn't run smooth but that motor had an issue from new.

Best of luck lads should all go well.

Make sure the connectors are upto carrying the amps should be ok not to powerful, feel them when u get it running after a full discharge see how everything heats up cant beat a thermal camera if you can, i cant so i use my spider sences.

 

[nardcox]

Just bought myself the MK5 with BT adapter as well. Used a code for 10% discount and you can indicate the value you want on the package to (hopefully) reduce import taxes a bit.

 

[gachot666]

I've installed everything for testing and connected the HALL sensors. Initially, I thought a cable from the board was for the throttle, but it wasn't. I had to rewire it, and fortunately, the Bluetooth module arrived. I needed its connector to insert a wire and use the AI1 port.
Set everything up, run the motor autotune or what the name is. So it works on the bench, top speed (RMP) by the sound of the motor is the same, meaning Kv of the motor is probably the limiting factor with an 18V battery. I haven't used field weakening for now.
I have changed the battery for Bosch 18V because I have a lot of these batteries with better chargers and more capacity. I will have to change the positions a bit to fit everything on the bike. The Bluetooth module works fine.

Now I need to place all of this on the bike somehow and test it with load. I tried using the bike brake and it didn't feel good, it was a lot of judder. I also got some overcurrent errors. I don't have any knowledge of tuning the motors (except petrol ones). I can see that the hall sensors are working and without load, it works fine. The throttle is fine, I have set it correctly and I have set everything to duty. Is this correct? Or should it be on speed?

At least the throttle works as it should now, without delays and with control.

 

[nardcox]

@gachot666, great news!! I would appreciate it you could share some pics / a short vid explaining what you did. My GF just texted me I received the controller and BT modele as well, no extra cost, have to pay 10 euro additional.

To bad the topspeed is the same (altough expected), was hoping to get some more out of it since it wasn't reaching the advertised speeds to begin with. I might change the battery to makita since I have several of those laying around.

What do you mean that the bike brake didn't feel good, you mean the mechanical disc brakes or did you connect the electronical one? I can imagine that if you have recup/regen set high it might cause an 'overcurrent' issue...typing this I don't expect that since this controller should be able to handle way more current...

 

[A-DamW]

Now I need to place all of this on the bike somehow and test it with load. I tried using the bike brake and it didn't feel good, it was a lot of judder. I also got some overcurrent errors. I don't have any knowledge of tuning the motors (except petrol ones). I can see that the hall sensors are working and without load, it works fine.

Here are a few specific posts about motor tuning with vesc:
vesc-tuning-advice-poor-acceleration-compared-to-other-controllers
vesc-tuning-advice-poor-acceleration-compared-to-other-controllers No.2
fiido-q1s-5kw-dual-motor-vesc-modular-diy-opensource-electronics-and-software

 

[neptronix]

Might want to consider running flux weakening on a VESC to bump the speed up, if the battery can handle the extra amps.

I wouldn't recommend going much over 20% of the original speed.

 

[gachot666]

I have partially finished the project, enough to take it out for a test. I'm using Bosch batteries and was able to fit an 8.0Ah ProCore battery, which I know can handle 100A continuously, though I don’t need that much power. When fitted with a 6.0Ah ordinary battery, it just leaves more space. The thickness of the wire coming out of the adapter is severely underrated for 100A. The battery has a fuse inside. I’m not using the battery's BMS or temperature sensor, but considering the low load from this small motor, there shouldn’t be any problems.

During the test, I fell off the bike at 2 km/h while holding my mobile in my left hand, resulting in more severe injuries than I’ve had from falling off my Surron Ultra in the woods (I have a video from my surveillance camera, but won't post it for obvious reasons . Despite this, I found a problem but haven't yet found a solution. The motor runs perfectly in sensorless mode but performs terribly when it switches to Hall sensor mode. I performed a manual Hall sensor detection, and the tool reported the results as poor but usable. The max ERPM is around 19,000 with the battery fully charged. So, now I have to find a solution to the Hall sensor problems. I tried measuring the temperature sensor inside the motor but without success. It isn't a resistor on the wire or I didn't get proper results. I'm receiving some voltage on this wire, but couldn't use it. I think it would be great to have motor temp.

I didn't finish everything because the buttons on the bike are both NO (Normally Open) and for the start/stop of the VESC, I need an NC (Normally Closed) button. I refuse to use a relay to convert the button to NC, so I've ordered an NC button from AliExpress. For now, the button just hangs there because the one that comes with the VESC is too big for the bike. This hanging button might cause a short on the controller, which is why I might burn the VESC before the new button arrives. But without that, where is the fun?

I have to enclose the electronics a bit with some kind of plastic plate, but I will do that when I receive the button.

I have no idea which type of communication the display is using. I can power it on, but other than that, I don't have time. It would be great if it would show speed and battery charge, but I don't think I will ever put so much effort into it.

When the motor is in Hall sensor mode, it starts to stutter and lose power. If it runs without the load, it runs fine. In sensorless mode, it runs fine, but I think the torque could be better.

Rotor pictures in the attachment because someone mentioned that I didn't attach them last time. Also forgot to add that Bluetooth module works great, but using Windows VESC Tool is much faster and easier for me. Maybe when I manage to set everything up I will use the app for limiting the power if needed.

 

[nardcox]

Damn, It's more work than I hoped. Good to know you can at least ride the bike. How did you connect the battery to the frame?

Weird that sensored mode is giving issues, I would have expected the software to autotune the shit out of it

Did you get a mode switching button to work or (guess not)? Have you checked / asked support in one of the above mentioned topics?

 

[gachot666]

Damn, It's more work than I hoped. Good to know you can at least ride the bike. How did you connect the battery to the frame?

Weird that sensored mode is giving issues, I would have expected the software to autotune the shit out of it

Did you get a mode switching button to work or (guess not)? Have you checked / asked support in one of the above mentioned topics?

Two great things are:
1. Throttle control exists. I've set the controller on duty and made all the calibrations and this is working great.
2. I'm using double the capacity with Bosch battery and I have a ton of them. Also, I have fast chargers and so much more for them

For the mode button to work it would require writing a custom code. With Bluetooth the max Amps for the motor are not hard to set, so I think that shouldn't be a problem if and when I make hall sensors work properly. It can be done for sure, but I think it's just too much work. I would like to do it, but I don't have the time for it. I would also like to know what is the screen data communication, but again, it would require me to sniff the data with different converters and hope to find something.

The battery is connected to the frame using an AliExpress Bosch battery adapter and secured with self-tapping screws, which I opted for out of convenience. While I could have threaded the frame, I chose to screw it on directly. I was careful not to damage the brake line running through the frame. Cutting the battery box was necessary to fit everything, and I doubt it could be done without cutting or using the OEM battery. Although the box's strength is intact, water resistance is now a concern. Given that this is a kid's bike and I'm using only 18V, it shouldn't be an issue. I've seen similar controllers in Bosch tools like the Fontus product, which looks almost identical and is impossible to replace (detach the controller from the battery adapter). The Bosch Fontus controller also uses three power settings.

VESC autotuned the Hall sensors and detected their positions, but there are issues. I suspect that tuning should ideally be done with the motor removed from the drive and gearbox, but I prefer to autotune with the gearbox and chain in place. Still, it should work like that, but it doesn't. As soon as it goes to hall sensors it works crappy. I've tried to get hall positions with different power to the motor, but the software always tells me that the positions are "bad but usable". I know how this works, but probably on >4000 ERPM some extra tuning to the hall sensors should be done. I have no idea what it is. Probably on higher speeds some extra tuning is needed. I still don't know how to use real-time data to make any conclusions.

Initially, I struggled with an over-current error, losing hours trying to resolve it. I realized that the motor runs fine up to 4000 ERPM but encounters issues beyond that. After increasing the sensorless limit to 19,000 ERPM, everything started working correctly.

I haven't asked for support yet because I know the process usually involves providing videos and logs, which I didn’t have ready before completing the project. I prefer to gather usable data before reaching out for help.

Despite the issues, the improvements in throttle control alone make the effort worthwhile. The original throttle control was really bad, and through this process, I’ve seen just how much better the new throttle setup is. It's a shame the factory doesn’t seem to address these issues.

 

[neptronix]

I have almost never ridden a factory bike that was tuned well or had a good controller, lol.
I'm glad to hear a not fully tuned VESC at lease gave you some improvement!

VSS sensorless mode is quite good if the VESC just doesn't like your halls. You will see greatly reduced torque from a stall, but you can do a few things to reduce that initial torque loss.

 

[Ianhill]

When testing the hall sensors postion you can adjust the current used for the detection try turning it up a little becuase the motor has the gearbox theres always some extra load than cogging alone and maybe its causing errors.

The other problematic issue can be the halls location themselfs could be prone to vibration not well secured etc fiximg that one with software is not so easy, im sure theres a way of swapping from sensored to sensorless at a given rpm and then also apply field weakning to a rpm limit of choice (within limits).

Can't see how the motor mesh to the gearbox in the pics or the motor shaft size etc looking at the gearbox id say a simple adapter plate could see a 63100 been a very simular size if theres no joy but hopefully that shouldn't need to happen and the hall issue is just a hicup that can be rectified.

 

[scianiac]

Wait you said that the motor doesn't run well in hall sensor mode but also that it runs well up to the sensorless erpm transition point and increasing that point improves things. That sounds like it does run well in hall mode but not in sensorless (hence why keeping it in hall mode to a higher RPM works better). This is an issue I've seen before that for some reason some motors have problems transitioning from hall to sensorless due to a discrepancy between where the hall and sensorless thinks the rotor is exactly. There are a few ways to improve it although. I would try changing the observer to Ortega, I've seen many say this it's much better at the sensorless transition. Also 6.05 will be out soon which has a fix for the transition issue.

Probably worth it to try and sheild the hall cables though if you think that may be an issue, just try and move them away from the phase wires and even just wrapping them in some aluminum foil will help a little.

The motor is just the most adorable IPM motor I think I've seen in an application like this but that means it will probably respond very well to field weakening or MTPA and with the lower voltage battery there is less risk of blowing up the controller spinning the motor way faster than it's KV since the VESC voltage rating is so much higher than the battery. MTPA actually solved most of the transition issues I had on a IPM motor for some reason but you should try it carefully, so at lower power first to make sure everything feels good.

There are about a million other things you could try to improve the tuning, I think IPM motors can be harder to tune but once tuned they perform really well on VESC in my experience.

Also current throttle control will probably feel better than duty.

 

[nardcox]

Yesterday evening I've let me son ride the bike a bit more and this morning I took it apart.

Currently have the power connected to a Makita battery (using an XT90 connector, bit overkill but it's all I had laying around) and the motor wires are also connected (using the stock connector after buying some male connector pins) this to ensure swapping back will not be a totla headache.

I've used the wizard to setup the bike and it seems to be running pretty smooth (I can use the keyboard control for this) guessing I selected the correct options during the setup, it is sensorless for the time being.

Now I'd wish to setup the throttle inputs and let my son play with the bike for a bit, do some more tuning and only later worry about making everything nice and tidy again. @gachot666, which cables did you use for this?

In an ideal world I'd have an original to VESC adapter in between but no idea how these connectors are called. Went to my local hardware store but they didn't carry any unfortunately.

EDIT: Found m: https://www.amazon.nl/-/en/Lyeteung...refix=jst+connector+6+pin,aps,101&sr=8-2&th=1

I can also buy all new connectors and reconnect everything off course.

 

[foorsgren]

Any updates on this thread? Still running fine? Im opting for this as well, incredible how bad the stock controller is regarding throttle delay. Looking at the wiring scheme for the Mini V6 i kind of figur that Hall sensors are wired to socket 2 but where do i wire in the throttle wires? At receiver?

Regards

 

[nardcox]

Hi @foorsgren, mine is running but not perfectly. I've been in contact with @gachot666 yesterday regarding our setups. I've shared mine with him so he can test it out and potentially finetune it.

I will make a nice wiring diagram and video of all the wires so you can easily do it yourself. Remind me in a few days if you don't hear from me (buy times atm).