Sure Ron tripping breaker/bms

Joined
Sep 5, 2022
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Hi everyone am new on this forum and have a bike I have built from sur Ron parts. It's the old square wave motor (0100 model motor) . Have been riding it on and off for a while and then got a fardriver controller which woke it up pretty good apart from the throttle run on that I was having issues dialing out. After a week parked in my shed it will now only run about 5/8seconds and trips the circuit breaker. New one in and same thing. If the breaker doesn't catch it the BMS trips. I put the stock controller back on and same deal. It will rev fine on the stand but on the ground it shuts down no matter how light I am on the throttle.it seems to be when the motor is at a certain revs. I'm thinking maybe the motor/ hall sensor but am stumped . I haven't been able to find any info at all on this issue so hoping someone can shed light on the subject. Cheers.
 
Sounds like it's drawing too much current for whatever reason.

With the rear wheel lifted, does it spin freely? Do you have a way to test the hall sensor signals?
 
Motor spins nicely no strange noises . Revs nicely on the stand and with the fardriver controller on start up there's no codes and says halls are all good. I dropped the line amps down to 80 and still does it.
 
If there was no change in the hardware, and nothing happened to the system physically in any way between the time it worked and the time it didn't, there shouldn't be any reason for it to do this; it can't be the controller or settings, etc., since it's doing it with both controllers.

The first bet is a loose connection in the battery supply wires from battery to controller, allowing arcing to occur under a higher load than "no-load" testing.

The same kind of problem with phase wires to the motor could also cause it, but since you've disconnected and reconnected those to a different controller at least once with the same result it's not nearly as likely.

Next would be a sensor fault (including wiring from sensor to controller) that causes the sensor timing to be wrong, or signals under higher current loads to be distorted enough to cause problems with controller reading them, causing it to drive the motor wrong and take more current than it should.

The fault idea is unlikely, but it could be wire or connector damage that only causes a problem when there is higher current flowing and causing electrical noise in the signals.

The only other thing might be a mechanical issue anywhere from the motor to the wheel (including teh actual wheel, or it's brake) causing excessive friction in the system, causing the load to still be operable when not on ground but when on ground trying to ride it, too much for the system. In this case, current draw will be noticeably high when offground, higher than it should be by probably a lot.


If it weren't for the BMS also tripping, I'd suggest a fault in the breaker itself, but since the BMS trips it's a real overcurrent, not a defective breaker. (unless the breaker is not internally seating fully and is itself arcing inside).
 
Just had a quick look at cables/ plugs and took it for a spin. Does it even in Eco mode which is pretty slow.. there doesn't seem to be much info about the early model motors(2017) online was putting it out there see if anyone knows anything. My Fardriver app does an auto program and says it's only a 4 pole motor and won't allow me to change it. I'm trying to think back a few months and I'm sure the first time I auto tuned it was 5 poles. Maybe something has failed?
 
Well, the number of poles (or pole pairs) should mean the number of magnets in the motor. Most of the autotune routines will use different signals on the phase wires to try to figure out the motor's characteristics, such as resistance, inductance, etc. Given the right sensors it can then spin the motor to count how many pulses it gets from a sensor per rotation, to see how many magnets there are (how many times the field changes direction). Some of them can probably also do this sensorlessly by reading the pulses generated in the coils as the magnets pass. How it knows when one rotation has happened so it can count, I don't know.

But if the number of poles it sees have changed, then something must have changed in the wiring or motor itself, between the time it worked and the time it didn't (it can't be in the controller if both controllers cause the same problem, unless both just happen to be damaged in the same way, which could happen if there is motor or wiring damage that has created a load on a controller signal or phase that caused controller damage..but the root cause would still be motor or wiring.

For instance, if the fardriver can supply a lot more phase current to the motor than the original, and it allowed the motor to heat up enough, it could've damaged the windings such that some of them are shorted to the stator or to each other, or it could've heated magnets enough to change their characteristics (which typically would cause the motor to spin faster, so it might draw more current trying to do the same job under the gearing ratio it still has from before).

Heat could also damage connections or wiring between motor and controller. Wiring that is inside a sheath or casing can be damaged invisibly, unless the casing is removed. Connections can be bad invisibly as well, either at the wire-contact interface or the contact-contact interface.


If there's no actual change in the system (unlikely since the original controller doesn't work any better): Did you use the same version of the same app connected to the controller in the same way to setup the fardriver the first time? If it is not exactly the same, the results might not be the same, if fardriver changed how it works...or it might give the same results inside the controller, but the app may not report them to you the same (which one is "right" I wouldn't know how to tell). So even if nothing changed in the system, a change in the app, etc., could change how the system works (or how it appears to work by differently reporting things).


I haven't seen any test results that tell you what the actual current draw of the system at the battery really is, both under riding load and off ground, or what the breaker rating is, or the BMS rating / trip point. If you haven't tested these, it may give you some useful info, at least to compare with previous usage info if you ever noted any down.

Have you checked the drivetrain or wheel / brake / etc for additional friction that could cause increased current draw?

Robinqueensland said:
Just had a quick look at cables/ plugs and took it for a spin. Does it even in Eco mode which is pretty slow.. there doesn't seem to be much info about the early model motors(2017) online was putting it out there see if anyone knows anything. My Fardriver app does an auto program and says it's only a 4 pole motor and won't allow me to change it. I'm trying to think back a few months and I'm sure the first time I auto tuned it was 5 poles. Maybe something has failed?
 
Thanks for all the info! I did use my PC to set up the fardriver and then my Android. I'll put my fardriver back on and pull the harness and have a good look. See if I can set up the poles with the PC. I was reading the poles with my phone after and you may be right about different programs. I've had the drive side of the motor off and it's clean as inside. I don't ride it hard as I do single track stuff and would hardly get warm. It does this with light throttle or hard acceleration just seems to be a certain rev range. Thank for you help 👍
 
So I've managed to put the fardriver back on and get it to trip the breaker loading it with the rear brake. It let's out 4 beeps which is "phases current over current" seems it's doing the same with the std controller I guess the motor has had something go astray?
 
You should be able to confirm most motor problems by testing. It sounds like possibly a shorted turn in the windings. This would give you a very high no-load current. Lift the rear wheel and run full throttle and measure the current.

Another easy test is to measure resistance from the motor case to the phase wires. This should be open circuit.
 
Motor seems to test fine. I've managed to get my fardriver to connect to my PC and when I run the bike and load it via the rear brake till it trips it comes up with 4 beeps and "hall sensor problem".And I still can't changed the pole setting to 5 as it keeps reverting back to 4. So a hall sensor change is the cheapest and easiest to do and go from there. Thanks for everyones help 👍
 
Robinqueensland said:
One last qsnt what should I be getting ohms wise between phases?
Between phases will be in the milliohms. A regular ohmmeter will show near zero. You can measure from phase wires to the case. This should be open circuit. If you see a connection from phase to case, it would indicate a winding short to the iron. If there was a short between coils on a winding, it would be hard to measure, but it would cause resistance to spinning and a lot of heat.
 
If you ever want to measure motor phase resistance, a couple of methods are listed here

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=117645&p=1732346


If you want to measure *controller* phase resistance (in the FETs) there are a few methods; the documents at http://ebikes.ca 's learn-troubleshooting section are an easy method.
 
Well that didn't work.... I have no idea what to look at next. Bikes fine on the stand and still trips on the ground. Might try to see if I can get a battery and see what happens. 😕😕
 
It would be great if you had a way to measure the battery current.

If the motor and halls are OK, it would point to a bad controller. You could try checking for FET shorts, but other things could cause over current. To check for shorts, disconnect the motor phase wires and measure resistance both directions from each phase wire terminal to both the battery positive and battery negative on the controller. Be sure to completely disconnect the battery and drain the controller caps (short the battery terminals) first. If any of the measurements looks like a short instead of a diode, it's a blown FET. Normally from phase wire to power wire it should measure like a diode.
 
It sure would seem like a motor problem then. It's possible there's a short between turns on one of the windings. This is rare. This would make the motor harder to spin with or without power. With power off, if you try to spin the rear wheel quickly, it should have minimal resistance, but with the double reduction it may be hard to tell. An inductance meter would be another way to test. Inductance between each combination of phase wires should be the same.
 
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