unique frame style for a BBSHD build

BicycleJoe

10 mW
Joined
May 2, 2023
Messages
21
Location
North America
Image 5-2-23 at 7.50 PM.jpgImage 5-2-23 at 7.50 PM 2.jpg

Hello Endless-Sphere people,

This is my first post here. I didn’t see an area for introductions so I’ll give some background on myself before I ask my ebike question. My name is Joe. I’m a long time two-wheeler person, moto, pedal and ebike. I’m into my third season on a Luna X-1 (Bafang M600 mid drive).

I have no complaints about the X-1 but it looks like I can get more speed, power and range by converting a good mountain bike with a BBSHD and the best battery I can find.

I’ve been reading the forums, hitting the bike shops and scouring Craig’s List and Facebook Mkt Place in search of the perfect bike to electrify. Then I found the Trek Stache. If these photos will post, you will see that the drive-side chain stay is up out of the way of the motor and chainring. This looks like the solution for me, as it should allow better chain line and the use of most or all of the big cogs on the cassette. I climb steep hills off-road so having the motor all the way into the bottom bracket shell with no spacers is critical.

The Trek Stache checks other boxes for me too, like availability and decent quality.

Negatives include dated (steep) geometry and the big 29” wheels. It seems like it will be geared too high for some hills with these big hoops, compared to 27.5”.

So: Trek Stache w/ raised drive-side chain stay plus a BBSHD, Good idea / Worth a try?
 
Some speculation: Since the stay on the drive side is at a different location relative to the BB shell vs the non drive side, there will be some twisting of the frame below the stay connection point to the seatpost above the BB shell, and some amount of chainline deformation from that. It will probably be so small that it won't matter...but if the applied torque is high enough and the loading is highly cyclic, it could stress the frame across that point and someday cause fatigue cracking.

Some other thoughts:

If you wanted to use an IGH on the rear wheel rather than derailer, you could adapt the system to a Gates belt drive (which normally requires a split frame). There are a few threads about that sort of thing if you want to see the details.

A chain could still be used instead of the belt, and still use an IGH, for some advantages either way.

The belt (or chain) / IGH will have less chance of chain derailment or damage during shifting due to accidental shifting under power, as long as the IGH is designed to do this internally (for instance, Rohloff has the gear detents inside it instead of in the shifter, so you don't get gear munching inside because of incomplete shifts, etc...but it's still better to cut power during the shifts).

There's less stress on the wheel's axle, and it's possible to reduce stress on the BB and axle, by moving the chainline as far inboard as possible without frame strike/rub, and keeping it there in a nice straight line.

The IGH would be less vulnerable to environmental damage than the derailer and cassette/freewheel mechanism.

Belts vs chains is a thing to look into for +/- for your specific use case, since each has limitations.

You could probably lower the gearing on the bigger wheels to make them "the same" as the smaller ones; AFAICS it's a pretty small difference.. For non-fat tires in the sub-2.5" range I think it would need to be about 94% (or 106%, depending on which way it goes) of the gearing you'd've used with the smaller one on same type of tires.


Regarding range, that depends on the power usage vs battery capacity. "Best" battery in that event includes capacity and not just well-matched cells (apparently almost impossible to get in an ebike battery unless you build one from used EV-grade cells) that are high quality, built correctly with good interconnects into a proper enclosure for your riding situation, with whatever BMS may be necessary to protect the cells in your usage.

At higher speeds and higher power levels, you'll have less range with the same capacity battery. At much higher power levels and speeds, battery capacity requirement for the same range increases dramatically, so for more range it gets bigger even faster. If you know the power requirements for your intended usage, you can guesstimate Wh/mile, and thus for a given range the Wh capacity of battery required. If you don't know the power needed, you can use the ebikes.ca motor simulator to make some guesstimates. (it will take some learning and experimentation to use the simulator for your usage and setup).
 
Some speculation: Since the stay on the drive side is at a different location relative to the BB shell vs the non drive side, there will be some twisting of the frame below the stay connection point to the seatpost above the BB shell, and some amount of chainline deformation from that. It will probably be so small that it won't matter...but if the applied torque is high enough and the loading is highly cyclic, it could stress the frame across that point and someday cause fatigue cracking.

Some other thoughts:

If you wanted to use an IGH on the rear wheel rather than derailer, you could adapt the system to a Gates belt drive (which normally requires a split frame). There are a few threads about that sort of thing if you want to see the details.

A chain could still be used instead of the belt, and still use an IGH, for some advantages either way.

The belt (or chain) / IGH will have less chance of chain derailment or damage during shifting due to accidental shifting under power, as long as the IGH is designed to do this internally (for instance, Rohloff has the gear detents inside it instead of in the shifter, so you don't get gear munching inside because of incomplete shifts, etc...but it's still better to cut power during the shifts).

There's less stress on the wheel's axle, and it's possible to reduce stress on the BB and axle, by moving the chainline as far inboard as possible without frame strike/rub, and keeping it there in a nice straight line.

The IGH would be less vulnerable to environmental damage than the derailer and cassette/freewheel mechanism.

Belts vs chains is a thing to look into for +/- for your specific use case, since each has limitations.

You could probably lower the gearing on the bigger wheels to make them "the same" as the smaller ones; AFAICS it's a pretty small difference.. For non-fat tires in the sub-2.5" range I think it would need to be about 94% (or 106%, depending on which way it goes) of the gearing you'd've used with the smaller one on same type of tires.


Regarding range, that depends on the power usage vs battery capacity. "Best" battery in that event includes capacity and not just well-matched cells (apparently almost impossible to get in an ebike battery unless you build one from used EV-grade cells) that are high quality, built correctly with good interconnects into a proper enclosure for your riding situation, with whatever BMS may be necessary to protect the cells in your usage.

At higher speeds and higher power levels, you'll have less range with the same capacity battery. At much higher power levels and speeds, battery capacity requirement for the same range increases dramatically, so for more range it gets bigger even faster. If you know the power requirements for your intended usage, you can guesstimate Wh/mile, and thus for a given range the Wh capacity of battery required. If you don't know the power needed, you can use the ebikes.ca motor simulator to make some guesstimates. (it will take some learning and experimentation to use the simulator for your usage and setup).
Thank you for your well reasoned response Amberwolf. Your point about this bike being able to fit a belt drive despite not having a split frame is brilliant. I've weighed IGH vs derailleur and belt vs chain already. I see the progress and the beauty of belt + IGH but I like things predictable and affordable. My Bafang M600 bike has shredded two derailleurs to pieces but repairs are easy and cheap. With a gear sensor I would probably still have my original one. My thoughts are the same about belts. I want a belt bike but not for my war horse. When chains and derailleurs break, I'm always able to limp home with a shortened chain in single-speed mode.

I looked into IGH hubs. The Rohloff is wonderful but not for my use case. Shimano Alfine 11is a winner with over 400% range but the price of the pieces and the frustration if it fails is more than I will take on. Looked at Alfine 8 as well. If I had to pick an IGH the 8 is it for me but parts availability and documentation seems slim.

Since my original post I've discovered the reason why other people haven't documented their ebike build with the Trek Stache. It's the bottom bracket: PF92! The Press-Fit 92mm doesn't have to be a deal breaker. I'm envisioning cutting the bottom bracket shell down to 73mm and using the Press-Fit BB adapters I saw somewhere to mount a BBSHD.

My new question is: What's up with these Press-Fit bottom bracket adapters? I gather that the max BB shell thickness for a BBSHD to slide on is 12mm?
 
Last edited:
If you look at the BBSxx design, you'll see that the motor casing is a specific distance from the center of the crankshaft, and can't be changed (without basically redesigining and rebuildling the drive case and the internal gearing). Somewhere around here in one of the BBSxx threads (or bikes built with them) there are drawings of the BBSxx system(s) with clearances and such.

This is reallly what limits the size of the BB shell it fits over (there may be other parts like lockrings, etc but this is the absolute limiter). This also limits the actual frame shapes it will fit over, because some frames have tube shapes and angles that extend into the space the drive has to fit into (especially longjohn type cargo bikes).

However, if the shell and frame/etc can be thinned enough in the area that overlaps the BBSxx casing, the drive can still be installed. It's been done on some bikes; there's at least one cargo bike that did this for a BB-based middrive (don't recall if it was TSDZ2 or BBSxx) and another that decided not to do it.

That's something you'd have to investigate on your specific frame if it's a problem and if it is, if that is a possible solution.
 
If you look at the BBSxx design, you'll see that the motor casing is a specific distance from the center of the crankshaft, and can't be changed (without basically redesigining and rebuildling the drive case and the internal gearing). Somewhere around here in one of the BBSxx threads (or bikes built with them) there are drawings of the BBSxx system(s) with clearances and such.

This is reallly what limits the size of the BB shell it fits over (there may be other parts like lockrings, etc but this is the absolute limiter). This also limits the actual frame shapes it will fit over, because some frames have tube shapes and angles that extend into the space the drive has to fit into (especially longjohn type cargo bikes).

However, if the shell and frame/etc can be thinned enough in the area that overlaps the BBSxx casing, the drive can still be installed. It's been done on some bikes; there's at least one cargo bike that did this for a BB-based middrive (don't recall if it was TSDZ2 or BBSxx) and another that decided not to do it.

That's something you'd have to investigate on your specific frame if it's a problem and if it is, if that is a possible solution.
Firstly, I might not have made this clear but the reason for all this effort and special frame is because these plus-size (big tires) mountain bikes have wide chain stay yokes that don’t allow the motor to go all the way in against the BB shell. Even when the motor goes all the way in to the BB shell the chain ring interferes with the chain stay. People end up using spacers between the motor and the BB shell. The chain ring ends up so far outboard that the inside (big) cogs can’t be used. On pavement that might not be a deal breaker. I need all my gears.

Yes, you’re right that there is a finite distance between the motor and the bottom bracket of a BBSHD. For these Press Fit 92mm (PF92) bottom brackets, the outside diameter of the bottom bracket shell must be equal to or less than 47mm(or 48?). If the shell was thicker one could just grind off the bit that prevents the motor from sliding on.

I should mention that I just returned from purchasing a 2018 Trek Stache with asymmetric chain stays, so this is real for me. I had originally thought that I would have to cut off both sides of the BB shell in order to fit a 68/73mm BBSHD. Lekkie makes these press-in collars to take up the slack in the 41mm inside diameter of a PF92.

Image 5-4-23 at 1.36 AM.jpg

I wasn’t crazy about disabling this bike from ever being returned to pedal bike service. Then I found the LEKKIE BB86/92 BAFANG ADAPTER. It fits around the 47mm OD of an aluminum PF92 shell. Better yet, it utilizes an internal collar nut to reach the short 68/73mm motor BB. The too short square-taper drive spindle is made longer with an extension that bolts on with an extra long crank-arm bolt. I’m surprised that they bothered to engineer and produce this but I’m glad.

Image 5-4-23 at 1.09 AM.jpg
Image 5-4-23 at 1.11 AM.jpgImage 5-4-23 at 1.14 AM.jpg
I'm not rushing into this build but I will share the results here.
 
The newer bike frames don’t have to make room for that large triple chainring. 32 tooth comes to mind, replacing the old 40-44 tooth, 7,8,9 speed set ups of yesteryear.
 
Original poster here. This Trek Stache build is cancelled. It might be possible to mount a BBSHD effectively on this frame but the lower end of the seat-tube is very wide. Hogging enough material off both ends of the bottom-bracket shell to fit a 68-73mm motor was not looking wise. That would have required cutting away a great deal of the welds that connect the seat-tube to the BB.

Another factor is that I came to really enjoy this 29+ Boost machine in its analog form. I didn't want to risk cutting it and ending up with a ruined frame.

I put the BBSHD on an old Gary Fisher man bike instead. It's not quite finished. For a first ebike build, this old narrow steel frame was a very straight-forward process.
 
Back
Top