oldswamm
100 W
Hi, this first post has gotten long, as I added to it, waiting for the ES buyout crisis to resolve (then I got busy). (I logged on to post this the 4th, but…)
Please bear with me, and don’t let the length overwhelm you. Lots of ideas, they can’t all be bad (a room full of monkeys and typewriters comes to mind). Comment on the worst (or best). (And please don’t quote this whole 3000 word post.) And if you’re critical of an idea, say why, not just that ‘you don’t like it’, or that ‘it won’t work’.
I started this design about a year ago, shortly after I first electrified the bicycle I was riding last summer. IOW, I've only been riding ebikes for about a year, but I've been THINKING (and reading on ES).
As I make progress, it's my intention to append near the top of this post, or the next 2 ('electronics', or 'uses, conditions, other stuff'), and leave old postings to show in reverse order (dated). I will/might also change the title to indicate what part of the project I'm working on, keeping the 'unusual ebike build' part. When I have questions, I will try and post them near the top (right here).
The first question that comes to mind right now is whether the heim joints are a good idea (would probably seal them with felt after lubing, to slow the influx of sand.) Whether on the swing arm or the frame, they impose torque on the mount, making for extra weight. They’re cheap enough and easy to replace when they do wear. And yes, I rejected a multilink system as soon as it occurred to me.
The other question would be 'what questions should I have asked?'. There are dozens of unusual ideas here. If you think I’m actually in error somewhere, please don’t just say so, tell me why!
IOW, this whole post could be considered a list of questions.
Needed:
An aluminum 17" MC wheel, with or without a tire. PM me if you have one you can let me have cheap (I'm way to poor for this hobby). Also need a smooth tire (can be a worn out knobby) for winter studding.
Slightly lower on the list would be decent front shocks (air/dampened).
Then a narrow 21" aluminum MC wheel, w/wo tire, for the front.
(So far I haven't found any of the above locally.)
Guess I'll stick my first drawing here. (8/13/11)
I want an all condition bike for sub arctic conditions (to -40). Off road, mud (tundra bogs), snow (put on snow shoes and walk/carry the bike back to better conditions if you get into snow too deep and soft). Will be working on aggressive studding come winter.
I'm almost 60 and don't need speed, nor will I be doing much jumping (I hope). But, I have a hard time going by an obstacle without wondering 'if I can make it through there'.
I’ve wanted a 2WD motorcycle since I first saw the idea in Popular Science 40 years (or more) ago (300#, 10mph, ICE, many gears and shafts).
It's a big bike, built for me (6'2", 200#). 5' wheelbase. I will just be able to stand straddle of it with the suspension extended and the seat low and level.
At this point I haven't done any welding on the frame. I've plasma torched some bicycles apart, and made some test welds. I need to measure tube thicknesses, calculate some stresses, and decide if I have all the tubing I need (I think I'm set). All the pieces came from cheap bikes, mostly huffys, which I wouldn’t think would be chrome moly. All the grinding sparks look the same. I don’t have gas for the TIG, but I stick welded some pieces together cold, and was satisfied with all but the thinnest. I think with preheat, I will have no prob. Will experiment a bit more before I start.
Depending on the shock mount holes used (I was planning on 3 possible positions at each end), I will have about 4 to over 6" of travel in the rear. I have a nice, dual air, shock.
The front is a cheap motorcycle front end with about 5" of linear travel, for about 4-1/2" vertical. Someday I might replace it, but I'm probably more likely to just start over again when that day comes. Before the question comes up, I'm using about 22# of MC, including fenders. Heavy, but strong. Will clamp/bolt/epoxy an adapter to the MC forks for the bicycle wheel and brake caliper.
I had a head failure on a 10 speed 30 odd years ago, tire contacted down tube, stopped turning (relative to the frame). Bob did one of his 1/4 second Superman impressions. Landed chest first and cracked a couple ribs. I’m willing to spend some weight to see that that front tire stays where it’s supposed to!
I should point out that I have another bike with another MC frontend welded to it, that I intend to test ride to decide how I like the head angle, rake, and trail. (It only recently occurred to me that this could be done with pedal power.)
The axle clamps will be built up to at least 5/8" wide, and the clamp bolts will be 5/16, grade 8, fine, double nutted, and installed with purple lock tight. Of course I will also use the axle nuts. No slots, just set the axle in the V (if the bikes upside down), and assemble.
The frame got a bit complicated, but all the extra tubes don't add much weight, and, well, it's not like I'm paying anybody to do the welding. The main design criteria that caused all this was the desire to put almost any size battery (large box) low and to the front (and keep it protected). I basically decided to add a couple light tubes that aren't really part of the structure. (The rear controller could be mounted in the compartment above the battery box, if I decided I needed a bigger battery, but I honestly don’t believe I will.)
Deep breath, pause, I want an ebike that's immersible. If you ride through water, you will eventually hit an unseen obstacle and fall down. I, on the other hand, sometimes ride into water that's (much) deeper than I expected (when an ICE's intake goes under, it stops, did you know that!?). This means extreme care with the wiring, waterproofing all boards, etc. (See electronics) The battery box would be 'sealed' (foam rubber), but not waterproof. Probably good enough, but I would like the battery/BMS in a sealed bag....
Will use the MC fenders front and rear, maybe cut down some.
Besides the (short throw) pedals, I will have 'pegs' about 1/3 of the way back on the swing arm, and footpads to either side of the battery incorporated into the air/rain/mud deflector (lower fairing?)(not shown), that's part of the frame/battery box for different seating positions, or a passenger. Makes it look even more like a scooter (like I care), but a nice place for the feet when riding through water, or worse.
It WILL have an upper fairing of sorts and a small wind shield before winter.... (That assumes I get the bike ‘done’ before winter.)
Built with a pair of motors from Methods, a 6x10 in the rear with a 3" tire, for a max od of 22.5", and a 5x12 in front using a 25.5" od 26" bicycle tire (for now).
12 and 18 fet controllers are overkill, but if I end up bedding them, I will want to use them gently.
For handlebars, I plan to weld neck tubes from old bicycle front forks to a piece of tubing clamped in the triple tree handlebar mount, then insert bicycle handlebar squibs(?) in them for a strong, highly adjustable handlebar 'system'. Hope with the drawing this is understandable.
Of course standard handlebars will work.
About the drawing:
Just a side view, sorry. I hope most of you can guess the front and top views and can mentally extrapolate the 3D. The only places there are double tubes have light crosshatching (forks, rear suspension, handlebars).
The tubes are drawn as simple rectangles (in visio), so ignore the joints and square ends.
The rear hub and spokes are drawn as an X5 in a 16" MC wheel, I'm using a 9C in a 17" MC wheel but didn’t take the time to redraw it.
The front wheel is drawn as a small (2-1/2") 21" motorcycle wheel/tire.
There are 2 seats drawn to indicate the 2 seat tubes (not a bad place for the passenger if she's short enough though), and behind them is a sketch of the 'banana' seat I have in mind (at it's lowest).
I intend to have 3 mounting positions for each end of the shock, not 2 shocks like the drawing appears to have.
1/2" heim joints for the rear swing arm bearing?
Haven't gotten around to drawing the brake caliper mounts yet.
The ‘line hatched’ tubes attached to the neck are from the MC.
When you look at the frame design, realize that the battery box doesn't add much to the strength, but very little weight either.
The orange/tan colored area would be kevlar composite, with the battery easily accessible (with a key) on the left, for r&r. Probably with a 10ah 20s or 22s built from 5ah20c turnigy (allowing for 1" padding/insulation all around except 1/2" on the sides), but the box is long enough for 2 separate 6ah 30c (would probably have a cubby hole/tool box, accessed from the right side in the unused part of that area, instead).
The green lines at the bottom would be the ground with the suspension fully extended or collapsed (max travel in the rear), which, with the double air shock in back, should be almost never.
This is a sketch of how I plan to get air from the fans in the swing arm, into the motor. How round I get the Kevlar funnel in the brake disk will largely determine the efficiency. I don't figure I need much air flow, but when I need it is when I'm going slow or stopped. There will be screens over the fans, incorporated into the phase/Hall wire protection.
View attachment 1
I intend to ventilate both motors, as well as forcing air through the rear.
As to moisture ‘getting in’, if you have warm air enclosed in a chamber, like these motors, and you cool them (by riding through water?), they will form a vacuum and suck in air SOMEWHERE, if only through or around the bearings, and if there’s moisture, it will suck in with the air. WITHOUT ventilation, there’s no way for the moisture to get out. My 2 cents on that subject.
My worry is sand wearing the plating off the magnets. Guess I’ll see. Any opinions? I guess I could thicken the plating on the magnets. It’s nickel, right?
Thanks in advance for any criticism and advice. (I consider a critical post, if logical, of more value than praise.) :wink:
Bob
Please bear with me, and don’t let the length overwhelm you. Lots of ideas, they can’t all be bad (a room full of monkeys and typewriters comes to mind). Comment on the worst (or best). (And please don’t quote this whole 3000 word post.) And if you’re critical of an idea, say why, not just that ‘you don’t like it’, or that ‘it won’t work’.
I started this design about a year ago, shortly after I first electrified the bicycle I was riding last summer. IOW, I've only been riding ebikes for about a year, but I've been THINKING (and reading on ES).
As I make progress, it's my intention to append near the top of this post, or the next 2 ('electronics', or 'uses, conditions, other stuff'), and leave old postings to show in reverse order (dated). I will/might also change the title to indicate what part of the project I'm working on, keeping the 'unusual ebike build' part. When I have questions, I will try and post them near the top (right here).
The first question that comes to mind right now is whether the heim joints are a good idea (would probably seal them with felt after lubing, to slow the influx of sand.) Whether on the swing arm or the frame, they impose torque on the mount, making for extra weight. They’re cheap enough and easy to replace when they do wear. And yes, I rejected a multilink system as soon as it occurred to me.
The other question would be 'what questions should I have asked?'. There are dozens of unusual ideas here. If you think I’m actually in error somewhere, please don’t just say so, tell me why!
IOW, this whole post could be considered a list of questions.
Needed:
An aluminum 17" MC wheel, with or without a tire. PM me if you have one you can let me have cheap (I'm way to poor for this hobby). Also need a smooth tire (can be a worn out knobby) for winter studding.
Slightly lower on the list would be decent front shocks (air/dampened).
Then a narrow 21" aluminum MC wheel, w/wo tire, for the front.
(So far I haven't found any of the above locally.)
Guess I'll stick my first drawing here. (8/13/11)
I want an all condition bike for sub arctic conditions (to -40). Off road, mud (tundra bogs), snow (put on snow shoes and walk/carry the bike back to better conditions if you get into snow too deep and soft). Will be working on aggressive studding come winter.
I'm almost 60 and don't need speed, nor will I be doing much jumping (I hope). But, I have a hard time going by an obstacle without wondering 'if I can make it through there'.
I’ve wanted a 2WD motorcycle since I first saw the idea in Popular Science 40 years (or more) ago (300#, 10mph, ICE, many gears and shafts).
It's a big bike, built for me (6'2", 200#). 5' wheelbase. I will just be able to stand straddle of it with the suspension extended and the seat low and level.
At this point I haven't done any welding on the frame. I've plasma torched some bicycles apart, and made some test welds. I need to measure tube thicknesses, calculate some stresses, and decide if I have all the tubing I need (I think I'm set). All the pieces came from cheap bikes, mostly huffys, which I wouldn’t think would be chrome moly. All the grinding sparks look the same. I don’t have gas for the TIG, but I stick welded some pieces together cold, and was satisfied with all but the thinnest. I think with preheat, I will have no prob. Will experiment a bit more before I start.
Depending on the shock mount holes used (I was planning on 3 possible positions at each end), I will have about 4 to over 6" of travel in the rear. I have a nice, dual air, shock.
The front is a cheap motorcycle front end with about 5" of linear travel, for about 4-1/2" vertical. Someday I might replace it, but I'm probably more likely to just start over again when that day comes. Before the question comes up, I'm using about 22# of MC, including fenders. Heavy, but strong. Will clamp/bolt/epoxy an adapter to the MC forks for the bicycle wheel and brake caliper.
I had a head failure on a 10 speed 30 odd years ago, tire contacted down tube, stopped turning (relative to the frame). Bob did one of his 1/4 second Superman impressions. Landed chest first and cracked a couple ribs. I’m willing to spend some weight to see that that front tire stays where it’s supposed to!
I should point out that I have another bike with another MC frontend welded to it, that I intend to test ride to decide how I like the head angle, rake, and trail. (It only recently occurred to me that this could be done with pedal power.)
The axle clamps will be built up to at least 5/8" wide, and the clamp bolts will be 5/16, grade 8, fine, double nutted, and installed with purple lock tight. Of course I will also use the axle nuts. No slots, just set the axle in the V (if the bikes upside down), and assemble.
The frame got a bit complicated, but all the extra tubes don't add much weight, and, well, it's not like I'm paying anybody to do the welding. The main design criteria that caused all this was the desire to put almost any size battery (large box) low and to the front (and keep it protected). I basically decided to add a couple light tubes that aren't really part of the structure. (The rear controller could be mounted in the compartment above the battery box, if I decided I needed a bigger battery, but I honestly don’t believe I will.)
Deep breath, pause, I want an ebike that's immersible. If you ride through water, you will eventually hit an unseen obstacle and fall down. I, on the other hand, sometimes ride into water that's (much) deeper than I expected (when an ICE's intake goes under, it stops, did you know that!?). This means extreme care with the wiring, waterproofing all boards, etc. (See electronics) The battery box would be 'sealed' (foam rubber), but not waterproof. Probably good enough, but I would like the battery/BMS in a sealed bag....
Will use the MC fenders front and rear, maybe cut down some.
Besides the (short throw) pedals, I will have 'pegs' about 1/3 of the way back on the swing arm, and footpads to either side of the battery incorporated into the air/rain/mud deflector (lower fairing?)(not shown), that's part of the frame/battery box for different seating positions, or a passenger. Makes it look even more like a scooter (like I care), but a nice place for the feet when riding through water, or worse.
It WILL have an upper fairing of sorts and a small wind shield before winter.... (That assumes I get the bike ‘done’ before winter.)
Built with a pair of motors from Methods, a 6x10 in the rear with a 3" tire, for a max od of 22.5", and a 5x12 in front using a 25.5" od 26" bicycle tire (for now).
12 and 18 fet controllers are overkill, but if I end up bedding them, I will want to use them gently.
For handlebars, I plan to weld neck tubes from old bicycle front forks to a piece of tubing clamped in the triple tree handlebar mount, then insert bicycle handlebar squibs(?) in them for a strong, highly adjustable handlebar 'system'. Hope with the drawing this is understandable.
Of course standard handlebars will work.
About the drawing:
Just a side view, sorry. I hope most of you can guess the front and top views and can mentally extrapolate the 3D. The only places there are double tubes have light crosshatching (forks, rear suspension, handlebars).
The tubes are drawn as simple rectangles (in visio), so ignore the joints and square ends.
The rear hub and spokes are drawn as an X5 in a 16" MC wheel, I'm using a 9C in a 17" MC wheel but didn’t take the time to redraw it.
The front wheel is drawn as a small (2-1/2") 21" motorcycle wheel/tire.
There are 2 seats drawn to indicate the 2 seat tubes (not a bad place for the passenger if she's short enough though), and behind them is a sketch of the 'banana' seat I have in mind (at it's lowest).
I intend to have 3 mounting positions for each end of the shock, not 2 shocks like the drawing appears to have.
1/2" heim joints for the rear swing arm bearing?
Haven't gotten around to drawing the brake caliper mounts yet.
The ‘line hatched’ tubes attached to the neck are from the MC.
When you look at the frame design, realize that the battery box doesn't add much to the strength, but very little weight either.
The orange/tan colored area would be kevlar composite, with the battery easily accessible (with a key) on the left, for r&r. Probably with a 10ah 20s or 22s built from 5ah20c turnigy (allowing for 1" padding/insulation all around except 1/2" on the sides), but the box is long enough for 2 separate 6ah 30c (would probably have a cubby hole/tool box, accessed from the right side in the unused part of that area, instead).
The green lines at the bottom would be the ground with the suspension fully extended or collapsed (max travel in the rear), which, with the double air shock in back, should be almost never.
This is a sketch of how I plan to get air from the fans in the swing arm, into the motor. How round I get the Kevlar funnel in the brake disk will largely determine the efficiency. I don't figure I need much air flow, but when I need it is when I'm going slow or stopped. There will be screens over the fans, incorporated into the phase/Hall wire protection.
View attachment 1
I intend to ventilate both motors, as well as forcing air through the rear.
As to moisture ‘getting in’, if you have warm air enclosed in a chamber, like these motors, and you cool them (by riding through water?), they will form a vacuum and suck in air SOMEWHERE, if only through or around the bearings, and if there’s moisture, it will suck in with the air. WITHOUT ventilation, there’s no way for the moisture to get out. My 2 cents on that subject.
My worry is sand wearing the plating off the magnets. Guess I’ll see. Any opinions? I guess I could thicken the plating on the magnets. It’s nickel, right?
Thanks in advance for any criticism and advice. (I consider a critical post, if logical, of more value than praise.) :wink:
Bob
