Lithium Battery Reports & Tests' 9/08

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This year members have bought late model Lithium packs and cells. Any reports and tests concerning specs; Cycle Life, Discharge Rates, AH Capacity, Charge Rates, Weight, Size, Voltage Sag and etc can be posted here.

The idea is to identify real world results to determine the most reliable Lithium/LIFePO4 cells and packs. We've spent many $ thousands $ seeking the Holy Grail -- What have we learned? Thanks for all on topic input from the ebikers of the world.

Info/Spec Checklist;
A -- Link to Mfg specs and purchase site and describe warranty
B -- Brand name and Type of battery or cell
C -- Capacity and Voltage, Rated maximum charge and discharge current.
D -- Description of tests or riding = motor, rider & cargo weight, hills, speed, distance and meter reports.
E -- Estimated number of cycles and depth of cycles actually performed so far and voltage and capacity difference from new.
F -- Feedback on dealer or Mfg accessability and response to any problems or questions
 
Ok, time to populate this post. The purpose of this post is to attempt to organize a set of links to various test results scattered across the forums. I'm sorting each category by the type of information available in that post and then by battery.

DISCHARGE GRAPHS:

A123
Compilation of specifications and related data - http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3358

Konion


Headway's

Headway 38120S (screw terminal) 10ah cell - http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=7655

Headway's and Yesa's discharge graphs - http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=8926

Comprehensive testing of LiFePO4 Headway cell 38120P by DoctorBass - http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3374

PSI (A.k.a, LifeBatt and BMI)

Discharge graph by an original LifeBatt Distributor - http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2903

Discharge graph at 45 - 50 amps of a PSI cell - http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=6028&start=30#p95598

Discharge tests of PSI cells that came from Yesa-http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=6151

Testing performed by Sandia laboratories - http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=7178

Yesa

Various Yesa discharge curves - http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=6028&start=60#p96195

YESA 10Ah cell internal resistance and discharge graphs - http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=8921

Yesa's in-house testing - http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=7903

A battery of tests(Haha) and inspection on a complete Yesa battery by DoctorBass - http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=8268

Ping

Some Ping 2.0 tests by ZapPat(More tests on the next page) - http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5362&start=75

Others

CammyCC 48V battery discharge test - http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=6567&start=45#p101950

HWC 1.4AH 18650 cell - http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=7235

Batteryspace's lifepo4 datasheet - http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=8855


INTERNAL RESISTANCE AND SIMILAR INFORMATION:

Konion

Internal resistance and relationship to capacity - http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=8823

Others

Analysis of Internal Resistance of various cells from the famous Zeva.au tests. http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3374&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=255#p87472

Various LiPo test data - http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=8251

A look inside a headway cell - http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=8109

I stopped looking at threads at the top of Page 9 on the Battery Technology subforum.
 
Since tool pack builds are such an easy way to get into this "sport" here is some Milwaukee info.

A -- Link to Mfg specs and purchase site and describe warranty

Milwaukee V28 LiMn tool pack battery. Amazon.com and Toolup.com typically the cheapest source for new packs. Ebay.com sometimes. Search for "48-11-2830" at Amazon and Ebay. No questions asked warranty to 1,000 charges/2yrs. Pro-rated to 2,000 charges/5yrs.

View attachment v28_milwaukee_warranty.pdf

B -- Brand name and Type of battery or cell

V28. Each pack weighs about 2.5lbs/1.13kg. Emoli 26700a Lithium Manganese cells. 7 cells per pack in 7s1p.

View attachment 1

C -- Capacity and Voltage

29-29.2v "hot off the charger" voltage @ ~4.15v/cell brand new. Factory tested 3ah capacity drawn down to 2.5v/cell (see discharge charts in PDF above). On board tool pack BMS LVC around 24-24.5v/pack (about 3.5v/cell) for 2.6ah useable at 1-2C. Under heavy loads (8-10C) more like 2.3ah useable in real world conditions.

D -- Description of tests or riding = motor, rider & cargo weight, hills, speed, distance and meter reports.

6 Milwaukee packs - 3 in series for 84v, 2 in parallel for 5.2ah. Diode protected. 60.5lb/27.6kg all up bike weight. 260lb/118kg all up gross weight. 7.5mi/12km one way commute up 1,600ft with rear Crystalyte 4011 (no point in mentioning the commute home since it's all downhill). Average commute speed 16mph/26kmh. Average watt hr usage = 55-75wh/mi 29.5-40.3wh/km. 8-20% grades. 50-60a spikes and 15-40a sustained.

E -- Estimated number of cycles and depth of cycles actually performed so far and voltage and capacity difference from new.

Around 100 cycles so far... most all down to LVC BMS pack shutoff. Hot off the charger now 28.8v down from 29.2v new. Milwaukee service center v28 pack tester shows 4.1v/cell and 85% total capacity left.
 
is the Milwaukee li ion or lifepo4 just saying li ion?
 
ejonesss said:
is the Milwaukee li ion or lifepo4 just saying li ion?

Milwaukee (and Rigid toolpacks and Sony/Konion cells and I'm sure others) are Lithium Manganese... which I believe is expressed fully as LiMnO2. It's also a "safe" chemistry that isn't prone to exploding etc. According to Molicel's recent press release their next generation cells will compete directly with LiFePO4 in terms of cycle life etc. LiFePO4 has the buzz for sure, but emolis/LiMn are pretty darn powerful and a good alternative.

Sheesh... I sound like an LiMn fanboy... heh, heh... :roll:
 
how is the power density as far as how many ah of lead acid does it take to make 1 ah of LiMnO2 and how many ah of lifepo4 to make 1 ah of LiMnO2?

because at $130 a pack a Milwaukee 28v 3 ah may turn out better choice.

pwbset said:
ejonesss said:
is the Milwaukee li ion or lifepo4 just saying li ion?

Milwaukee (and Rigid toolpacks and Sony/Konion cells and I'm sure others) are Lithium Manganese... which I believe is expressed fully as LiMnO2. It's also a "safe" chemistry that isn't prone to exploding etc. According to Molicel's recent press release their next generation cells will compete directly with LiFePO4 in terms of cycle life etc. LiFePO4 has the buzz for sure, but emolis/LiMn are pretty darn powerful and a good alternative.

Sheesh... I sound like an LiMn fanboy... heh, heh... :roll:
 
Here's the best I can do from memory; will edit later with more/better data:

Batteries labeled as "Canadian Tire Yardworks LiMn 20v 6ah batteries":

ES Topic: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=4908&start=0
Availability: Only in Canada at Canadian Tire stores or delivered to anywhere in Canada.
Current price: $109.99 Canadian plus taxes as of Sept. 2008.
Warranty: 1 year over the counter exchange.
Includes: BMS and casing but can be reduced to 5 banded cells.
Intended usage: Smallish Grass Trimmer, leafblower, polesaw, chainsaw, etc.
Ebike/technical support: none.
Charger: $29.99, rated 2 amps but measured 1.8amps; takes 3-3.5 hours for full charge.
Charge-ability: Charge-able in 1 hour at maximum current I tested of 12 amps.
Chemistry: Lithium Manganese / Spinel.
Form Factor of 5 banded cells: prismatic, 65 mm x 65 mm x 140 mm
Voltage: Per cell: 3.7 V nominal, 4.2v max, 3.0v minimum normally but LiMn good to 2.5v.
Capacity: rated 6Ah; observed 5-6Ah, about 5AH at 16-20 amps.
Mass: about 1600 grams with case and BMS, about 1230 grams for 5 banded cells; 245 grams per cell,
Internal DC impedance: measured about 125 milliohms at 16 amps for 5 cells; 25 mO per cell.
Max Current: BMS limits to 31 amps.
Power Density (5s pulse) about 440 W/kg ? (at 30a, 18v for 5 cells)
Energy Density: ~90 wh/kg

Voltage sag at full throttle, 20amps: 84v open circuit off charge to 75v = 9 volt drop (about 450 milli-ohms for 20 cells)

My range with 2 batteries/10 cells has been as high as 25 km or 16 miles on recumbent. With 4 batts/20 cells I can get up to 40 KM (25 miles) at 20 KMH (12 MPH) on small upright bike weighing 64 pounds and me 176 equipped for total of 240 lbs.

At average 32 KMH (20 MPH) I get about 20-22 KM up and down my street with max incline of 2-3%. At max throttle I think I can get 10 KM or 6 miles and max speed on flat in 50 KMH or 30 MPH area. Ranges with me sitting upright, not aero.
 
ejonesss said:
how is the power density as far as how many ah of lead acid does it take to make 1 ah of LiMnO2 and how many ah of lifepo4 to make 1 ah of LiMnO2?

Lead acid is the only chemistry that is significantly affected by the Peukert effect. For most other batteries, the rated Ah should be comparable with each other in an e-bike application. In other words, lead-acid chemistry is the only one where the advertised, rated Ah is not fairly close to the energy you will actually get.
 
I just got a Ping 48V 20 aH. I'm running a Crystalyte 5303 with C'lyte 4840 controller. I pop the BMS at 59.08 amps. I haven't fully discharged it yet but will provide more information as it becomes available...
 
I have been running my 48V20aH Ping pack at 45 amps continuous (I know I may toast it but the grin is worth it). BMS cutout is 58.5A. Note that these may be 3-5% low due to Cycle Analyst calibration - my watts up meter only puts in 95-98% of what the CA says came out.
 
Do keep us posted how the battery does at that rate of discharge Steven. I'd love to be proved wrong. If it still works fine after 100 or so cycles that will be big news. If not, we are still dying to know the details. Maybe start a thread on high dischage Ping later? Anybody else with this data now please chime in!
 
mikeredis,

Is there a way to get the yardworks shipped to US. If so what would be the proceedure?
 
>miro13car on Mon Sep 29, 2008 2:06 pm
>where did you get Can$109 for Milwakee pack, in retail, no way , maybe on e-Bay.

Not Milwaukee, they are too expensive here in Canada, at least at the prices I saw in a store.

They are Canadian Tire Yardworks batteries. $110 Canadian (less in US dollars) for 5 cells LiMn, rated 6ah.

chessir said:
mikeredis,

Is there a way to get the yardworks shipped to US. If so what would be the proceedure?


Not from the vendor Canadian Tire I'm afraid. They ship, but only to Canadian addresses. I think some enterprising Canadian should consider reselling them to US, but it might be more trouble than it's worth for the reseller...

I keep thinking/hoping there is some way to buy a truckload, perhaps just the cells for half the retail price. If I figure out a way to do it, short of hijacking a Canadian Tire truck, I'll let you know. :)
 
pwbset said:
Around 100 cycles so far... most all down to LVC BMS pack shutoff. Hot off the charger now 28.8v down from 29.2v new. Milwaukee service center v28 pack tester shows 4.1v/cell and 85% total capacity left.

:shock:

You're at 85% of the original capacity after only ~100 cycles? Do you think this is unusual for the battery or do you think it's expected with your power demands as compared to the expected power-demands from power tools?

I just thought it was funny they offered a 1000 cycle warranty but you've already exhausted more than 1/10 the capacity while you have only exhausted 1/10 the warranty(in terms of cycles).
 
swbluto said:
You're at 85% of the original capacity after only ~100 cycles?

That's what the official Milwaukee service pack reader says yeah. I'm definitely noticing a dip in available amp hours... lately under load I'm seeing like 4.8ah instead of the 5.2ah when they were new. I am running only 2p with these packs and am basically running them full bore to LVC every day (that weather permits). That's really not what these cells are supposed to do I don't think. I have a bunch of spare emolis harvested from old V28 packs and Rigid 24v packs and none of them shows more than 1.8ah left at a 2C drain with a CBA II analyzer most are 1.5-1.6ah... no idea how old they are, but they sure look "new" i.e. no sawdust or marks or anything. It's funny because I'm getting a lot of old reject konions too and even a terrible 1s2p pair of those is like 2.66ah with most being 2.8-2.9ah... again at 2C. Emolis are starting to lose their shine in my mind. I can't drain an emoli at 24a (8C) without it shutting the CBA test down, but the konions can handle 24a sustained during the whole test. :shock: A single 10s2p string of konions can support a 36v20a controller at max pull and weigh 2lbs... now that's frickin cool. Talk about a lightweight commuter solution if you only need to go a couple miles. As soon as my konion pack is done I'm totally ditching the Milwaukees.

Again... keep in mind I climb 1,600ft at full/constant power (40a+ at times) with these Milwaukees so am running them outside the usual discharge envelop. Also keep in mind I'm no engineer/scientist so these are just my observed... well... observations. Take them with a grain of salt etc.
 
pwbset said:
swbluto said:
You're at 85% of the original capacity after only ~100 cycles?

That's what the official Milwaukee service pack reader says yeah. I'm definitely noticing a dip in available amp hours... lately under load I'm seeing like 4.8ah instead of the 5.2ah when they were new. I am running only 2p with these packs and am basically running them full bore to LVC every day (that weather permits). That's really not what these cells are supposed to do I don't think. I have a bunch of spare emolis harvested from old V28 packs and Rigid 24v packs and none of them shows more than 1.8ah left at a 2C drain with a CBA II analyzer most are 1.5-1.6ah... no idea how old they are, but they sure look "new" i.e. no sawdust or marks or anything. It's funny because I'm getting a lot of old reject konions too and even a terrible 1s2p pair of those is like 2.66ah with most being 2.8-2.9ah... again at 2C. Emolis are starting to lose their shine in my mind. I can't drain an emoli at 24a (8C) without it shutting the CBA test down, but the konions can handle 24a sustained during the whole test. :shock: A single 10s2p string of konions can support a 36v20a controller at max pull and weigh 2lbs... now that's frickin cool. Talk about a lightweight commuter solution if you only need to go a couple miles. As soon as my konion pack is done I'm totally ditching the Milwaukees.

Again... keep in mind I climb 1,600ft at full/constant power (40a+ at times) with these Milwaukees so am running them outside the usual discharge envelop. Also keep in mind I'm no engineer/scientist so these are just my observed... well... observations. Take them with a grain of salt etc.


Yeah, but ~40/~5 ~= 8C. I thought power-tool batteries were chosen for those kinds of particularly high demands. If not, I would think the over-amp protection would've kicked in or something. Oh, well, I *guess* they specifically designed their batteries to work with *their* power-tools so they the battery costs could've been lessened by not including an over-amp protection since its unneeded since their tools assumably don't draw at that rate. Oh well, let's hope they honor the warranty. :wink:

(This sheds new light on over-discharging lithiums in general. Or, well, maybe. Since it's likely this "C" rate discharge and cycle-life is probably a continuous curve of some sort, I guess it might be wise to purchase as much capacity as possible with particularly low C-rated cells. Like Ping's. Eh, well, once I'm done with them, I'm "upgrading" anyways. :D )
 
swbluto said:
Yeah, but ~40/~5 ~= 8C. I thought power-tool batteries were chosen for those kinds of particularly high demands. If not, I would think the over-amp protection would've kicked in or something.

Right... that's 8c with my pack's basically new emolis though, which still sag a lot under those loads like 8-10v... I was talking about the harvesters I'm getting, which who knows how old they are... they must be pretty old as they have <1.8ah and sag well below 3v under load freshly charged. I have diodes protecting my 3s2p pack and each pack's BMS should be able to handle 20a without tripping, which is pretty much what I'm seeing. If I go full throttle up a good size hill from 5-6mph (my pedal first "ignition" speed) the diodes pulse like mad (as that's well over 40a), but once I'm beyond that and through the next phase... the "controller rattle like mad speed" of 13-14mph... I can go WOT the whole climb (I liken it to the Space Shuttle's "go with throttle up" :mrgreen: ). When I'm doing that the pack LEDs blink a single LED, which usually indicates time's up buddy, but clearly if I let off the throttle they recover the volts.
 
Power tools aren't run under those kinds of loads continuously. Think about a work site. The hand power tools are on for a minute at a time to cut a few boards then it is time to take measurements or install the boards with another tool. One battery pack doesn't get hit at full capacity for 20 minutes without a break while being used in a power tool. The only power tool at a job site that would run continuously for several minutes would be something like a table saw if a guy has to rip a bunch of plywood. Even then, there is a break between cuts where the motor is spinning at full speed with no load. Power tools just don't get used at full blast for from fully charged to depleted without a rest.
 
marvingalaxy said:
Power tools aren't run under those kinds of loads continuously. Think about a work site. The hand power tools are on for a minute at a time to cut a few boards then it is time to take measurements or install the boards with another tool. One battery pack doesn't get hit at full capacity for 20 minutes without a break while being used in a power tool. The only power tool at a job site that would run continuously for several minutes would be something like a table saw if a guy has to rip a bunch of plywood. Even then, there is a break between cuts where the motor is spinning at full speed with no load. Power tools just don't get used at full blast for from fully charged to depleted without a rest.

Some garden tools, like the Canadian Tire Yardworks LiMn powered Grass Trimmer or Leaf Blower should be expected to run continuously at load, although perhaps not normally at higher loads like 10-20-30 amps. That said I once tripped the 31 amp BMS limit on my Grass Trimmer in very heavy wet grass.

I think the manual estimates perhaps 1 hour of run time for the Grass Trimmer, so perhaps thats an average of 5-6 amps for this 6 AH battery.

I suspect though that Canadian Tire is expecting to make good revenue on replacement batteries after warranty period, but I think that will be more due to lack of balancing in the BMS, rather than high discharge rates.
 
hay im up for selling them to u guys thay just refreshed there stock wowo one location had 15 packs when i went let me know if u guys want some there will be mark up tho lol for the gas $ i spend to go find and get them lool
 
Does anyone have any independent test data or experience for the SALI IFR26650D10 LiFePo4 battery. They claim 2700 mA and over 1000 cycles at 1C rate. I am getting 50 samples for testing but have plans to get a couple thousand for an EV application. If you want spec sheet I can email it to you. I will also resell some out of my order if any one is interested.

Paul -- Pjorg
 
Info/Spec Checklist;

A -- Link to Mfg specs and purchase site and describe warranty
http://www.foxxpower.com/
(3) years from the date of original retail purchase

B -- Brand name and Type of battery or cell
Foxpower
LifePo4

C -- Capacity and Voltage, Rated maximum charge and discharge current.
I have the 36V 10AH pack
Charge rate <20A, 2A balancing charger provided no BMS on the pack itself.
Discharge rate 3C continuously and 5C peak, for up to 30 seconds

D -- Description of tests or riding = motor, rider & cargo weight, hills, speed, distance and meter reports.
Battery ran a 36V GM 500W motor with rider and bike weight including the battery at near 260lbs. Motor slowed significantly on hills. Speed was in general 18-20 MPH. Approximately 20 miles per charge with minimal pedaling on accelerating from a stop.

E -- Estimated number of cycles and depth of cycles actually performed so far and voltage and capacity difference from new.
Estimated 100 cycles with 10% to cutoff no notice of change in voltage or performance.
Batteries at 3.3V after full charge and three weeks of storage.

F -- Feedback on dealer or Mfg accessability and response to any problems or questions”
Product was in my hand within a week of ordering it. Questions answered promptly untill then. After receipt of goods typical Chinese communication wise mostly one to two week in answering e-mails. I did not phone them may have been better if I had.

I ran the pack in series with a couple of 9AH 12 volt batts in parallel for 48V for the last 500+miles. Acceleration and hill climbing abilities were much improved and the miles per charge was maybe at maximum a mile less.

battinbox.jpg


I just purchased a 48V pack as the 36V has done well. It is now in my grubby little hands so will report on it in the near future.

OK the future is here pic of the newest 36V pack I sent in as requested to have converted to 48V cuz my 36v controller fried. Replace the controller with a 48v unit and added a couple of 12 SLAs to get the voltage right. Instant torque junky I am.

48vbatt.jpg


Near five weeks to get, it back and was beginning to get concerned when I got an e-mail from Zane with saying it would be on its way. The pack arrived three of four days later as you see it. Not quite the same build quality but figured It was still serviceable. So set about splitting the pack and made boxes to put in the panniers. So when I drop it things will still work. Bent the ABS with a heat gun while clamped between boards. The rewire from what looked like 26 gauge to 20 gauge took a couple of hours.

48Vbattsrewired-1.jpg


First charge shows a weak batt. Second charge the weak battery started melting shortly after I hooked up the charger. E-mailed Zane and got an immediate response five more batts in my hand in less than a week. Replaced batt #3 rode 17 miles. Replace batts #7 and #1 as the full charge lights came on as soon as they were hooked to the charger. Replaced batts #1 and #7 again as the new ones got hot as soon as the charger was plugged in. Next try at charging everything seems to be good and the charger shuts itself off about four hours later. Another 17 mile hot Roding it all the way ride 20-23mph flat out with a top of 25 even a couple mph higher on hills I often rode 17mph now going 19mph up them. Expect the same mileage out of this one as the 36v as I ride and accelerate faster. I hate the panniers mounting assembly as they keep nearly falling off the bike so finally got the zip ties out. A couple of ties installed at the bottom and no more problems.
Looks like Foxpower comes through again albeit a bit shaky this time. Excellent support after my first bad battery problem.

battbagrt.jpg


48vlakesm3.jpg


4/3/09 Update on the Foxpower 48V 10ah Lifepo4 pack.
Put a few more cycles on the new battery pack and even with the dc-dc converter powering the new LED light set up managed near 19 miles. That was straight without stopping for a break as I usually do. Only pedaled from a stop and up the hills that tried to slow me down to less than 20mph. Temperature was about 50 F. Had a nice ride today with no one trying to run over me, no flat tires, rain or breakdowns. Hard to beat that kind of ride although some of that elusive sunshine might be nice. Oh and the total vehicle weight is near the 255lb mark.
 
hy
i dont know if its the right place to ask,but ill try:
on a pack of 120x1.2v (36v 10ah) lithium-ion batteryes do i need a Bms?
what kind?
 
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