Air Cooling my x5

steveo · Apr 19, 2009

Hey Everyone,

A very genours member on the forums will be donating there x5 motor side covers to me so i could expirement with air cooling my x5 :mrgreen:

I would like suggestions from you guys on the best way to do this with keeping any dirt outside the x 5 to avoid any internal damage..

Cross drilling some holes into the side covers seems to be the best way to do it! .. I think i have to find a place where they do brake routers and ask if they will do it for me?

Reason for cooling.

I have succussfully run 133v @ 46 amps for the last 2 weeks without any problems... other then my x5 hitting 100 degrees in about 10 mins of some hard riding (catching up to motorcycle guys lol)

I hope this will be able to give me some decent cooling if done right!

-steveo

huskydave · Apr 19, 2009

They have a product called univent. It is used on airboxes to give an atv or such more power. They are a 1 way valve and only let air flow in the direction they are installed in. Just drill holes pop in univents and your good to go. What about using a nonconductive liquid in the motor? That could work as well.

Doctorbass · Apr 19, 2009

Hey Steveo, I plan to make a wuick URGENTcooling solution even if it is too hot for the DRAG bike tests (that make it loosing alot of power so i need to keep it as cold as possible)

By that way a simple duc tape piece can be placed on the two holes to keep the hub perfectly sealed... and they can be removed to put air flow from a air compressor to fast cool it!

Here is my solution:

dogman dan · Apr 19, 2009

Use surgical mask type dust masks to cut filters to put over the holes. Hopefully there is clearance inside, but if not, outside. I would think that would keep dust particles of dangerous size out. Of course keep some tape handy if it starts to rain to cover the holes. It would be bitchin to have some kind of scoop that pushed air in. If the scoops went on only one side of the motor, the air would get pushed in that side. Maybe a fairing could push air on one side toward the cover so you have more pressure on one side of the motor? For shorter rides, an air supply could blow through two holes when you stop, in one out the other as the Doc shows. A cover could pop into the holes when you are riding that way. Don't know it you are track riding where that would work, or going distance. I also like the idea of a wick sewn to the hub around the middle. Keep it wet to cool faster. I may do that one this summer.

StevenR · Apr 19, 2009

Yeah - a scoop on the inlet side with a nice reverse scoop venturi thing on the outlet. Put a bunch of scoops on both sides around near the center of the hub with outlets on the outer edge to get both scoop indiced and centrifugal air flow. A ring of plastic with holes (with filters?) could go inside the cover and rotate to either cover or uncover the holes base on cooling requirements and weather. If it is raining the water would probably assist cooling without airflow.

curious · Apr 20, 2009

I think a much better way to handle X5 heat is to improve internal heat exchange between the stator and outer plates. One option is to mount internal ribs on the outer plates to force better air circulation inside the hub. Another option is to fill the hub with some kind of oil (or helium gas

) to improve heat transfer, although it would be somewhat hard to keep it from leaking out.

For drag race helium fill is very feasible option, just mount a nipple on a plate and fill it from kids air baloon tank. Helium has exceptional heat transfer characteristics and you do not need any overpressure in the hub. For daily use the hub needs to be sealed properly though and periodically re-filled.

monster · Apr 20, 2009

what about throwing in some non-conductive solvent that would evapourate and cool it

rkosiorek · Apr 20, 2009

curious said:
I think a much better way to handle X5 heat is to improve internal heat exchange between the stator and outer plates. One option is to mount internal ribs on the outer plates to force better air circulation inside the hub. Another option is to fill the hub with some kind of oil (or helium gas ) to improve heat transfer, although it would be somewhat hard to keep it from leaking out.

For drag race helium fill is very feasible option, just mount a nipple on a plate and fill it from kids air baloon tank. Helium has exceptional heat transfer characteristics and you do not need any overpressure in the hub. For daily use the hub needs to be sealed properly though and periodically re-filled.

i like the helium idea. be sort of cool. just fill it up fresh before each pass. it will leak out quite easy tho cause it is not really sealed in.

if he does try the internal vanes mounted to the covers it would be interesting to find out how much windage is created and would it create enough drag to affect performance.

even with some vanes and windage, unless some method for cool outside air to be let in and the hot inside air to be let out, all the vanes will do is stir up the hot inside air. might still be enough to help on short 1/4 mile hops but not much else.

just a couple of thoughts to stir up the discussion.

rick

tostino · Apr 20, 2009

Hrmm I see some easy ways to quickly cool a motor for a quick quarter mile pass, but what about commuters who just want to push their hub farther or make sure they are keeping their motor sufficiently cool to improve efficiency? Do you think scoops are the only viable solution? Do you think there is any way to force air into the motor with a fan or blower?

curious · Apr 20, 2009

My problem with ventilation is that it will accumulate dirt with time. Rust is also an issue. I guess with some effort all stator stator parts can be dipped in some high-temp compound and bearing assembly waterproofed (perhaps using ceramic bearings). In that case you can basically mill as many holes in the rotor plates as possible to expose winding beauty

(like brake rotors on some hot-rod cars).

steveo · Apr 20, 2009

Doctorbass said:
Hey Steveo, I plan to make a wuick URGENTcooling solution even if it is too hot for the DRAG bike tests (that make it loosing alot of power so i need to keep it as cold as possible)

By that way a simple duc tape piece can be placed on the two holes to keep the hub perfectly sealed... and they can be removed to put air flow from a air compressor to fast cool it!

Here is my solution:

Hey doc

I love you drag cooling setup lol... but i'm aiming at something that will cool the motor everyday .... and not just on drag runs!

-steveo

potatonet · Apr 20, 2009

StevenR said:
Yeah - a scoop on the inlet side with a nice reverse scoop venturi thing on the outlet. Put a bunch of scoops on both sides around near the center of the hub with outlets on the outer edge to get both scoop indiced and centrifugal air flow. A ring of plastic with holes (with filters?) could go inside the cover and rotate to either cover or uncover the holes base on cooling requirements and weather. If it is raining the water would probably assist cooling without airflow.

I like this idea

Doc had a good idea too just kinda confusing

steveo · Apr 20, 2009

tostino said:
Hrmm I see some easy ways to quickly cool a motor for a quick quarter mile pass, but what about commuters who just want to push their hub farther or make sure they are keeping their motor sufficiently cool to improve efficiency? Do you think scoops are the only viable solution? Do you think there is any way to force air into the motor with a fan or blower?

Yup .. i'm a daily commuter ... or try to be

-steveo

potatonet · Apr 20, 2009

I think cross drilling the thing would work along with attaching a fan blade to the inside of one side of the motor, then it would suck in!

just suggestions

tostino · Apr 20, 2009

StevenR said:
Yeah - a scoop on the inlet side with a nice reverse scoop venturi thing on the outlet. Put a bunch of scoops on both sides around near the center of the hub with outlets on the outer edge to get both scoop indiced and centrifugal air flow. A ring of plastic with holes (with filters?) could go inside the cover and rotate to either cover or uncover the holes base on cooling requirements and weather. If it is raining the water would probably assist cooling without airflow.

I would think reversing the inlet and venting positions would be helpful to greater airflow... The outer part of the hub is traveling at a higher speed than close to the center, so placing inlets as far to the edge of the hub as possible seems like the best bet, with the vents near the center. Wouldn't that generate higher air pressure, pushing the rest of the air out of the vents in the center?

Please correct any mistakes in my logic if I am wrong.

potatonet · Apr 20, 2009

think about how a turbo works.

thats why its suggested that way.

http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/turbo-parts.gif

Vim · Apr 20, 2009

I don't know if this would work, but... what if the stator spokes where shaped like fan blades and the left side axle was drilled out or key cut just like the right side for the wires... and the fan blade stator spokes drew air through the wiring side axle hole and pushed the hot air out through the left axle hole? The right side axle hole (intake) would point forward, and the left side axle hole (exhaust) could point towards the rear. Maybe not feasable for the home modder, but good at the manufacturing end? ...if it worked.

potatonet · Apr 20, 2009

I would seriously look into manufacturing glue on plastic scoops for predrilled holes on these.

there might be enough demand to warrant the cost of even manufacturing two different ring sizes in the same mold. I think there are enough machinists here. just need a machine to run the injection for the mold.

or if someone can think of something else... like this

http://www.oocrcracing.com/Label%20-%20LP.jpg

air scoops for RC cars or RC planes

Vim,

remember the stator is static, the covers move and the rotor move.

Almasi · Apr 20, 2009

potatonet said:
I would seriously look into manufacturing glue on plastic scoops for predrilled holes on these.

there might be enough demand to warrant the cost of even manufacturing two different ring sizes in the same mold. I think there are enough machinists here. just need a machine to run the injection for the mold.

or if someone can think of something else... like this

http://www.oocrcracing.com/Label%20-%20LP.jpg

air scoops for RC cars or RC planes

Vim,

remember the stator is static, the covers move and the rotor move.

Better than that...get a mold and make some in aluminium casting with the scoop built-in to them...it would be a simple job of swapping cover!

Robin

Vim · Apr 20, 2009

potatonet said:
Vim,

remember the stator is static, the covers move and the rotor move.

Doh!

I swear I knew that but it just escaped me when I thought that up. I gotta cut down on the paint huffing.

Okay then... the inside of the side plates had spiral webbing to act like fan blades? Ehh, stupid idea

markcycle · Apr 20, 2009

I don't know if this will work for the X5 but I'm working on this for the 602. It might work on the X5 with a redesign of the side covers. The holes in the side covers will have screens and maybe a epoxy encapsulated windings.

Mark

Zoot Katz · Apr 20, 2009

It seems to me that if properly formed stiffening vanes were applied in opposite directions on the inside of the cover plates, one side would suck air from outside and the other suck air from inside the motor. No?

markcycle · Apr 20, 2009

Zoot Katz said:
It seems to me that if properly formed stiffening vanes were applied in opposite directions on the inside of the cover plates, one side would suck air from outside and the other suck air from inside the motor. No?

If designed right it will work. The thing is If your stopped at a light there will be no cooling. The problem with these motors are they produce the most heat at starting from a stop at low RPM's. So active cooling should work better especially in stop and go traffic.

Mark

potatonet · Apr 20, 2009

you are going to put 40W of fans in there?

you think thats gonna help you more than it hurts your battery?

this is the point of air cooling.

vanilla ice · Apr 20, 2009

Vintage race bikes, thats the closest thing I've seen to this. Works well for those guys.

Air Cooling my x5

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