1st post-1st ebike

[1-track-mind]

As a matter of introduction, I'm a 54 yo, 200+lb,avid cyclist looking to delve into the ebike/adventure commuting world.
I'm looking for a kit to make a 50mile roundtrip commute in the Blue Ridge mountains on a late 80's stumpjumper. I'll be able to recharge at 25 miles. The route has 5 long climbs and the total elevation gain for the entire trip is about 5,000 feet.
I've looked into various systems and have learned that the power and range combo gets very expensive.
I just became aware of the dual drive idea and am intrigued.
My main objective is to reduce my ride time down to under 3 hours.

 

[dogman dan]

4000 foot of climbing. Sounds like a motor with smoke coming out of it to me. Seriously, you need to look into something that would have a fan cooled motor, and most bike stuff isn't, particularly hub motors. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it might be easier to do it with a gas motorcycle, or a gas motorcycle converted to electric, using a motor with a blower to cool it.

I know of folks doing about half that much, commuting to a ski area and climbing 2000 feet or so for maybe 10 miles. But you'll be the first climbing 4000 feet and traveling 25 miles.

To do it in about the same time you do now is much more possible, but hauling ass up those hills is going to really heat up the motors, and keeping going after the first one may fry the thing by the 5th one. You really are proposing something I think is pretty far out on the edge of the possible with any commonly avaliable stuff I know of. A good cyclist really can outperform an ebike in range and duration, so meeting those levels is pretty hard and or expensive.

One option that could work though, would be two gearmotors. Mabye you could climb hill one on one motor, and climb hill two on the other, and so on. Direct drive motors wouldn't work because they make heat when coasting, but freewheeling gearmotors don't. So maybe a pair of BMC 600 watt motors, and 30 ah of 48v lifepo4. I don't know if all that can be bolted and strapped to a normal bike without serious handling issues though. A cargo bike might be good.

 

[mrzed]

No reason that you would need to see smoke coming out of the motor if you were driving through the gears. You'll also get much better range that way for your application, though sufficient capacity won't be cheap. There's also the cross-canada trip that Justin did with a 5300 series motor. He made it over the Rockies with that kit.

 

[1-track-mind]

4000 foot of climbing. Sounds like a motor with smoke coming out of it to me... But you'll be the first climbing 4000 feet and traveling 25 miles.

To do it in about the same time you do now is much more possible, but hauling ass up those hills is going to really heat up the motors, and keeping going after the first one may fry the thing by the 5th one. You really are proposing something I think is pretty far out on the edge of the possible with any commonly avaliable stuff I know of.

Thanks for the response. I'm sorry that I was not clear. The 4,000 feet is spread out over 50 miles, so I'll have 2,000 feet over 25 miles and then the bike will be parked for several hours before returning. There are two long sustained climbs in each direction but they are spread apart. When I do the 25 miles now, it's 2-2.5 hours on a road bike, mainly because I suck at climbing hills. My proposed ebike is a tank even without a kit (or two), with mtb gearing, so you might be right about not being able to save time. If that's the case, much of the incentive is out the window.
Are you saying the 9 continent would not work because it is a direct drive ?

 

[hillbilly]

Dogman: can you please elaborate on this:

"I know of folks doing about half that much, commuting to a ski area and climbing 2000 feet or so for maybe 10 miles."

If I could make a similar climb without melting something I'd be quite happy.

thanks!

 

[1-track-mind]

MRZED I've been pricing different options like the BMC V2-T and ecospeed and you are right, they are not cheap... but if half of my system is under 3OO complete with batteries (Currie), why does a dual wheel system have to be prohibitively expensive ? At this point I'm more concerned about the weight than the cost.

 

[icecube57]

I dont see why a 5305 or 5306 couldnt do it. On 36-48v with a 20AH Ping pack. Maybe a 35A controller. It would be super efficent due to mid speed loading and it being in its butter zone. I think its doable and reliable.

 

[dogman dan]

Ok, 2000 feet over 25 miles is quite a bit different than 4000 feet over 25 miles. Particularly since the motor gets to cool by the time it goes at it again. But nevertheless, it's a lot of climbing and motor heating is an issue that will need to be monitored.

I'm trying to remember which one was commuting to the ski area, Pbwset mabye? I'll try to hunt it down soon and post here who you want to talk to. Weather makes a difference too, I live in the desert, and what I can do in the winter cannot be done in summer. About 90F is the temp where I start having to be real carefull. The guy I was talking about used to ride an overvolted 400 series motor to get to the ski area, and then he switched to a 5304 I think.

The Crystalyte 5300 series motors are the best for taking a lot of heat and keeping going. How fast you climb a hill can make a big difference, but even slowly, really steep hills can overheat a motor fast. I've overheated motors in less than 3 miles. But again weather plays a role here. What happens is a motor at a certain load will reach an equilibrium temp where the motor heating and motor cooling are equal. The crucial thing is whether that temp is above or below about 180-200F. By 200, magnets can loosen, and above that things actually melt and short out. So when the weather gets real hot, then the load the motor can take without overheating goes down, and you have to ride slower and slower as things get too hot, or stop and do a cooldown.

One combination that might do it ok would be a crystalyte 5304, 35 amp controller, and two headway 48v 10 ah batteries. The motor would have lots of power to climb the hills, and the headways have the amp rate that can dish up the power to the motor. You'd have at least 25 mph, but less going up the hills depending on how steep. The range may be enough, but the extra climbing might make that tight. I know you'd have 25 mile range on flatter terrain.

I am currently testing a 9c motor, and it is a good climber. But I haven't made any climbs over 1000 vertical on it yet, and when I did it was 80F out and the motor was very very hot at the finish of the ride. I was climbing about 7% grade full throttle. The motor climbs well, but I cannot tell you much about its ability to take the heat without doing more riding next summer. I was only about 350 miles into the test when weather, the flu, etc shut it down.

I guess what I'm trying to say is I know the 9c will climb the hills, but for how long I haven't tested. My commute is pretty lame compared to yours. Mine is, to get home, 15 uphill miles climbing 1000 feet. I usually overheat everyday riding home, and have a few miles where I have to ride slow on a flat spot to cool off, or stop altogether when it's up around 100F. At 80F I can ride home and never overheat. My ride home takes about 15-20 amp hours of 36v battery to do depending on the wind. Typical is 16 amp hours to get up the hill and home.

Your ride is a lot more possible than I first thought, but doing it fast without overheating is the issue. There are definitely motors that can do the 2000 ft climb, but the faster you go up steep hills the more you heat motors. The other issue is when the motor breaks. Then you are stuck pedaling an 85 pound bike in the hills. It'll happen, for sure.

By the way, in Justins ride across Canada, on day one or two he melted a motor. Then he switched to a 5300 series crystalyte. That motor got him up some serious climbs crossing the Rockies. I don't know how fast, or how much he stopped though. And hot as it was, he wasn't riding in 100F.

 

[1-track-mind]

Dogman
Thanks for the detailed response. I have been in contact with NWMTB who is riding in similiar terrain and climate, with a stock Currie Electro drive kit and reports no overheating issues. So, maybe temp is a big part of it. The temp rarely gets over 80 here, and since half of my commute would be in the morning, I'll be doing a good bit of the first leg in the 40-60 range.
I'll consider the 5k, but I'm going to have a hard time not going for the Currie electrodrive and 9C kit dual drive combo @ $528.00 dlvd and then buying some batteries. I'd like to think that having two motors will alleviate overheating, but I have no way of knowing this for sure.
Is there some reason that no one here wants to discuss the Electro drive...am I barking up the wrong tree ?
I do want to haul ass uphill, but without it costing an arm and a leg.

 

[torker]

That last comment about wanting to haul a$$ uphill without costing an arm and a leg is the stickler.

Imo The reasons for not pushing the electro drive are the perceived lack of reliability and the fact they are not plug and play like a hub. Most / some people want it simple, bolt on a hub and go. When used within their limits hubs are VERY trouble free. They are not the best climbers due to the heat they generate and cannot dissipate. The geared hubs, BMC, Puma, Ezee etc are better but still generate a lot of heat ,although not as much and the gears are usually the weak point. An Electro drive type unit that runs through the gears will out climb almost any hub due to the fact that the motor can run at or near max rpm. All electric motors are most effiecient at near max rpm.
The lack of reliability is due to the complexity of a chain drive with extra pulleys, mounting hardware, freewheels etc.

If you are mechanicaly inclined and don't mind doing more prep/ fabrication then the non hub setup WILL climb better.

This is of course my opinion based on a years worth of reading and trying to cull the best info available. Plus I only run hub motors at the present. This does bring me back to your last sentence about money though. There are a lot of tradeoffs and money may dictate which you are willing to allow.

Somebody tell me if I am totally off base here.

 

[1-track-mind]

Thanks, Torker. How does that e-bent handle in the hills, and what do the 9C numbers refer to ?

 

[torker]

I live in so. central Kansas so no hills here. Dogman is the hubmotor vs. hill guru here. The recumbent motor is what is called a 2806 or you could call it a 10 by 6 for the number of primary and secondary windings it has . More primary and less secondary makes more speed. I'm talking in terms of transformers, the guys on here will have to straighten me out on the terminology. It goes 20 mph @ 36 volts in a 20 inch wheel. The second motor I have is a 6 by 10 and it goes 20 mph. @ 48 volts in a 26 inch wheel. So there is a big difference in rpm vs. volts. If I ran the 6 by 10 in a 20 inch wheel @ 36 volts it may only run 10 mph. but it would climb really well. Conversly if I ran the 10 by 6 winding in a 26 inch @ 48 volts it might run 40 mph but would be slow getting there and climbing.

All a little confusing at first. You might check out the hubmotor simulator but keep in mind the speeds are unloaded. Realworld loaded speeds on the road will be 4-5 mph. slower. It is at ebike.ca let me get it for you...http://www.ebike.ca/ there.. simulator is a tab on the right. It will also tell you torque values. Trying to look at that and figure it all out on your own will be confusing, so guys like Dogman and others who have real world exp. will be the best way.

 

[Russell]

As a matter of introduction, I'm a 54 yo, 200+lb,avid cyclist looking to delve into the ebike/adventure commuting world.
I'm looking for a kit to make a 50mile roundtrip commute in the Blue Ridge mountains on a late 80's stumpjumper. I'll be able to recharge at 25 miles. The route has 5 long climbs and the total elevation gain for the entire trip is about 4,000 feet.
I've looked into various systems and have learned that the power and torque combo gets very expensive. The only exception seems to be the Currie Electro drive.
I just became aware of the dual drive idea and am intrigued.
What are your thoughts on the feasibility of an Electro drive in back with a 9C 500w up front or some other combo ?
I'm in resonably good shape and plan to pedal continuously. I envision using only one motor unless I'm going uphill.
My main objective is to reduce my ride time down to under 3 hours.

Just wondering what you mean by "total elevation gain for the entire trip is about 4,000 feet" since that can mean different things to different people. To some the phrase may mean starting at sea level and riding up to an elevation of 4,000 feet (and returning) and to others it may mean a lot of up and downs where the "UPs" add up to 4,000 feet. For example I have a circle route which is 31 miles long so there is no net elevation change however along the way I climb 1,370 feet, but it's not especially taxing (with the motor assisting) because none of the hills are very long. To really judge whether one type of motor will cut it or not you need to look at the individual grades you will face along the route. If you can be more specific about the route especially about the "5 long climbs" (length and grade of each) then that'll help to determine how much motor you need.

My favorite route mapped with http://veloroutes.org/






-R

 

[johnrobholmes]

If you are most worried about weight and hill climbing, a non hub motor is certainly the best bet. Also the most expensive. Do you have a budget?

 

[1-track-mind]

Just wondering what you mean by "total elevation gain for the entire trip is about 4,000 feet" since that can mean different things to different people. To some the phrase may mean starting at sea level and riding up to an elevation of 4,000 feet (and returning) and to others it may mean a lot of up and downs where the "UPs" add up to 4,000 feet. For example I have a circle route which is 31 miles long so there is no net elevation change however along the way I climb 1,370 feet, but it's not especially taxing (with the motor assisting) because none of the hills are very long. To really judge whether one type of motor will cut it or not you need to look at the individual grades you will face along the route. If you can be more specific about the route especially about the "5 long climbs" (length and grade of each) then that'll help to determine how much motor you need.

My favorite route mapped with http://veloroutes.org/



Thanks Russell, that was fun.
By 4,000 gain, I meant the total amount of climbing
I plotted the route to work under Boone to Sugar Mountain @veloroutes.org. and came up with
2918 feet of climbing over 25.8 miles. Return appears to be a little under under 2000 feet of climbing, so the total is actually closer to 5,000.


-R[/quote]

 

[Russell]

I plotted the route to work under Boone to Sugar Mountain @veloroutes.org. and came up with
2918 feet of climbing over 25.8 miles. Return appears to be a little under under 2000 feet of climbing, so the total is actually closer to 5,000.

Yes sir you've got some nasty grades there That last downhill (or the first big uphill coming back) looks like almost 700 feet in about 1.5 miles or about 9% but that's an estimate based on a printout of the picture.



http://veloroutes.org/bikemaps/?route=45039#



-R

 

[1-track-mind]

I plotted the return route which is slightly different in that I spend more time on the Blue Ridge Parkway rather than taking the longer but more level, 221 which runs parallel. The return distance is 24.2 with 1891 feet of climbing. Now that I see all this on paper, I'm wondering if this is too tall an order to move 300lbs up those hills on a budget of $1300.

 

[swbluto]

Okay, so let's do some rough calcs.

You want to do 50 miles total in less than 3 hours of riding time. How long are willing to charge at the 25 mile marker?

Assuming you completely charge once there, we'll consider the capacity needs based on 25 miles and with 2000 feet of ascent. The average speed you want is about 50 miles/ 3 = 16.6 mph. The energy needed to climb 2000 feet is m*g*h = (136 kg meters)*(9.8 m/s^2)*(609 meters) = 811675 joules = 225.465278 watt hours. The energy needed to sustain 16.6 mph for 25 miles, assuming 20 watt-hours/mile, is 25*20 = 500 watt-hours.

It looks like you'll need at a minimum of 725 watt-hours OUTPUT to complete a one way trip. Now here's the fun part...

What's the motor's/system's efficiency? With a hub motor (and you'll need a big hub motor to sustain the heat), you're probably looking at 60-70% efficiency. Assuming 65%, that means the battery capacity you'll need is somewhere around 725 watt-hours/.65 = 1115 watt-hours. If you chose a geared motor that had pretty good efficiency and power output at 16 mph (depending on gearing), you might expect 80% efficiency which would need 906 watt-hours. For the power you'll need to sustain 17 mph up an incline, I think an external geared motor would probably be the most appropriate.

Add in 15% for whatever variation(wind?), it looks like you're looking at a little over 1050 watt-hours to 1300 watt-hours needed. Assuming a battery cost of around $.60/watt-hour for lipo or .$75/watt-hour for lifepo4, your battery cost could vary from $630 (LiPo+geared motor) to $975 (Hub motor and lifepo4).

That leaves about $300 to $670 left over for the motor and controller from the budget. It sounds like it might be possible with a geared setup, but a direct drive hub motor is probably going to go over the budget amount, assuming a big hub motor.

If you accept a longer trip time to reduce the power needs, you could probably get away with a 9C motor, especially if you added extra cooling measures (Like holes in the cover).

 

[1-track-mind]

I'll have 6-8 hours to charge at 25.
I could accept something less than 17 mph on the climbs, since I'll be making up some time coasting downhill at 35mph, but what would this do to a 9C ?

 

[swbluto]

I'll have 6-8 hours to charge at 25.
I could accept something less than 17 mph on the climbs, since I'll be making up some time coasting downhill at 35mph, but what would this do to a 9C ?

At 48V, if you pedal along and contribute 150 watts, you might expect 11-12 mph. When the motor is cruising along along a flat, it would be generating around 110 watts of heat. If you pedaled up a 9% hill and achieved 12 mph, the motor would be putting out nearly 3 times that amount. If you didn't pedal and were going 7 mph, you could expect nearly 5 times the amount which would practically guarantee its destruction.

So with 3 times the amount of heat, the 9C motor may over-heat over a long 9% hill. Basically, insulation melts and the motor shorts out so it's no longer usable.

With a geared motor, it could be a whole lot more efficient which means less heat generated and a much lower likelihood of destruction. It would also be possible to reduce your battery capacity since it could be more efficient, meaning less money spent on batteries. However, I don't get the impression the internal geared hub motors can sustain the power levels you desire to sustain 17 mph up a 9% hill, so an external geared motor would involve some fabrication effort.

 

[1-track-mind]

SW, thanks. This is a huge help to get this all out on the table. What are your thoughts on dual wheel drive to split up the work between two motors ? From a cost standpoint, I was looking at the Currie/9C combo.

 

[swbluto]

SW, thanks. This is a huge help to get this all out on the table. What are your thoughts on dual wheel drive to split up the work between two motors ? From a cost standpoint, I was looking at the Currie/9C combo.

That should reduce the work on a hub motor which may help prevent over-heating. How much the work is reduced, though, depends on the currie motor's characteristics and gearing, how much you're going to pedal along on the hills and what speed you're going to choose to go (More speed = more work from the motor). Since I know nothing of the three, I can't really help much.

I also don't know if the front forks of a currie bike would work without fail with the 9C. I'd have to check the opinions of other currie bike owners. I also don't know if the currie bike's motor could also take long sustained hills.

The easiest way out would be to get a rear 5304 or so on a 20 inch rim, a 48 volts 30 amp controller or 72volts 20 amp controller (depending on battery), and about 1.5 kwh of batteries (Something like 48V 30Ah or 72V20AH). If you run out of juice, though, it's going to be a beast to climb with. I think that would come to about 1500 dollars and it seems 15-18 mph would be realistic.

The cheapest way out would be a 9C motor with cooling mods on a 20 inch rim. Get a 2806 9C motor with a 30 amp controller, and the same amount of batteries mentioned above. With pedaling, you should be able to sustain 15-18 mph. According to the simulator in my signature, in this configuration, the motor can be upto 80% efficient which is about as good as a geared setup would be. The total cost of this setup would be about... $1300?

That kind of bike would have some high torque loading, though, so I'd probably only trust it on a rear configuration. I don't know if 9C motors are offered in a rear configuration.

Here's a 48V30AH pack at ping battery - http://www.pingbattery.com/servlet/the-17/48V-30AH-V2.5-LiFePO4/Detail

If you're ok with the thought of the battery cutting out a mile or two before you reach your destination and you're going to be pedaling a bit, you could get a lower capacity battery for cheaper.

http://www.pingbattery.com/servlet/the-20/60V-20AH-V2.5-LiFePO4/Detail

Even cheaper would be a 36V30Ah battery, but there's a pretty good chance it will definitely cut out upto 5 miles before you reach your charging destination, pedaling or not.

You can get a cheaper deal with LiPo, but you HAVE to know what you're doing. You could get a cheaper deal on LiFePo4 batteries if you're willing to build it yourself. You'll need to buy a charger and do a lot of work going down this route, but evcomponents.com has the bare cells that you could use. A 60V20Ah pack would require 20*2 = 40 cells and that's about $800. You'll still need a charger and BMS, though, which would probably add upto to nearly the cost of a complete ping battery.

Thundersky batteries might be possible and they're pretty cheap at nearly 50 cents per watt-hour and a 30v40AH pack would cost about $600... but it doesn't seem like there's a lot of experience with those around the forum, and you'd still need to build it and get a charger and BMS.

 

[1-track-mind]

SW, thanks. This is a huge help to get this all out on the table. What are your thoughts on dual wheel drive to split up the work between two motors ? From a cost standpoint, I was looking at the Currie/9C combo.

That should reduce the work on a hub motor which may help prevent over-heating. How much the work is reduced, though, depends on the currie motor's characteristics and gearing, how much you're going to pedal along on the hills and what speed you're going to choose to go (More speed = more work from the motor). Since I know nothing of the three, I can't really help much.

I also don't know if the front forks of a currie bike would work without fail with the 9C. I'd have to check the opinions of other currie bike owners. I also don't know if the currie bike's motor could also take long sustained hills.

The easiest way out would be to get a rear 5304 or so on a 20 inch rim, a 48 volts 30 amp controller or 72volts 20 amp controller (depending on battery), and about 1.5 kwh of batteries (Something like 48V 30Ah or 72V20AH). If you run out of juice, though, it's going to be a beast to climb with. I think that would come to about 1500 dollars and it seems 15-18 mph would be realistic.

The cheapest way out would be a 9C motor with cooling mods on a 20 inch rim. Get a 2806 9C motor with a 30 amp controller, and the same amount of batteries mentioned above. With pedaling, you should be able to sustain 15-18 mph. According to the simulator in my signature, in this configuration, the motor can be upto 80% efficient which is about as good as a geared setup would be. The total cost of this setup would be about... $1300?

That kind of bike would have some high torque loading, though, so I'd probably only trust it on a rear configuration. I don't know if 9C motors are offered in a rear configuration.

Here's a 48V30AH pack at ping battery - http://www.pingbattery.com/servlet/the-17/48V-30AH-V2.5-LiFePO4/Detail

If you're ok with the thought of the battery cutting out a mile or two before you reach your destination and you're going to be pedaling a bit, you could get a lower capacity battery for cheaper.

http://www.pingbattery.com/servlet/the-20/60V-20AH-V2.5-LiFePO4/Detail

Even cheaper would be a 36V30Ah battery, but there's a pretty good chance it will definitely cut out upto 5 miles before you reach your charging destination, pedaling or not.

You can get a cheaper deal with LiPo, but you HAVE to know what you're doing. You could get a cheaper deal on LiFePo4 batteries if you're willing to build it yourself. You'll need to buy a charger and do a lot of work going down this route, but evcomponents.com has the bare cells that you could use. A 60V20Ah pack would require 20*2 = 40 cells and that's about $800. You'll still need a charger and BMS, though, which would probably add upto to nearly the cost of a complete ping battery.

Thundersky batteries might be possible and they're pretty cheap at nearly 50 cents per watt-hour and a 30v40AH pack would cost about $600... but it doesn't seem like there's a lot of experience with those around the forum, and you'd still need to build it and get a charger and BMS.

This would be a Currie kit on a very beefy late 80's steel stumpjumper (not on an I-zip), so I'm not concerned at all about the front forks handling the 9C.
Interesting comments on the 20" rim, but since I don't own a folder or recumbent, it's not going to be easy or cheap.
I'm warming up to Dogman's suggestion that I look into a motorcycle.

 

[swbluto]

I'm warming up to Dogman's suggestion that I look into a motorcycle.

Okay, what was your interest in an ebike?

Did you own a car and you just wanted to have the fresh air?
Don't have a car and no other form of transportation?

If the last one, it seems puzzling you'd first look into ebikes given the prevalence of motorcycles but maybe you didn't know about the costs involved for high energy demands with electrics. That's ok. For cost-competitiveness for the initial cost, motorcycles are your best economic bet if you want highway speed capability and/or long distances, however, I may just suggest a car because they're a fair bit safer than motorcycles and a former motorcycle owner on the boards suggests cars are significantly more reliable.

 

[1-track-mind]

I'm warming up to Dogman's suggestion that I look into a motorcycle.

Okay, what was your interest in an ebike?

Fair question.
I'm an avid cyclist, own 4 bikes and live in one of the most beautiful places in the eastern US. I often ride 1-2 hours after work, weather-permitting. Occaisonally I'll do the 25 mile return leg on either my Masi roadbike or if I'm really feeling frisky my 92 Bridgestone X0-2 with 4 loaded panniers, then catch a ride the next day. The ride to work is too long and too taxing because my job is physical (farming).
I don't have a car. I drive a 2500 Dodge diesel truck.
Now, if I could cut my commute time down to 3 hours on an e-bike, it's a win money-wise, a win environmentally, a win heath-wise and a win fun-wise. It's just too bad that the technology is not there yet.