2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

[Jonathan in Hiram]

The built in wattmeter is more than likely using the shunt in the controller to measure current, when you solder the shunt you don't change the voltage across it so the built in wattmeter won't notice any difference even if the current goes up a lot, you changed the calibration of the measuring device at the same you changed the quantity being measured.

Soldering the shunt won't make a significant difference on the flat and level cruise speed either, there the motor is voltage limited as to speed, increased current through the controller will only make a difference if the motor is demanding more current and that's going to be either at low speeds while accelerating or while climbing a hill.

 

[docnjoj]

The built in wattmeter is more than likely using the shunt in the controller to measure current, when you solder the shunt you don't change the voltage across it so the built in wattmeter won't notice any difference even if the current goes up a lot, you changed the calibration of the measuring device at the same you changed the quantity being measured.

Soldering the shunt won't make a significant difference on the flat and level cruise speed either, there the motor is voltage limited as to speed, increased current through the controller will only make a difference if the motor is demanding more current and that's going to be either at low speeds while accelerating or while climbing a hill.

Interesting! Thanks Jonathan. So there will not be a measurable difference in watts? This is helpful. Would an external wattmeter measure correctly?
otherDoc

 

[Jonathan in Hiram]

An external wattmeter should measure correctly.

 

[endlessly_ending]

Might be better to coninue XiongDa matters here?

The Xiong-Da Family was there with a bike mounting their 2Speed Motor. They are really good people, they was a bit lost on the big show, though, both physically and commercially.
What is of interest, I think, for the community, is that the Bafang Crew has tried my XD fat, and they was really curious and pleased about the 2 speed motor (Again, Have they some market research guys?) and after to try it and be around it in 5 or 6 for minutes, finally they bought a 2 speed motor from XD......

Later, Speaking with one of the Bafang team, he bet that next year we will get more Multispeed motors, even from the big chinese manufacturer.

Well, if Bafang (and others) gets interested in selling two speed hubs - and certainly they now will - XiongDa "family startup" most certainly will get lost - if - they are not only into developing 2-speed hubs, but the most clever business strategy on earth as well.

Yes....and even if in some way I'm feeling bad to have maybe accelerated this inevitable trend standing at the bafang booth with that XD-bike and talking about its concept, I know that it would be in any case inevitable.
But since the XD motor is actually working very well, I hope they will put efforts to better develop their actual system, and would be glad even helping them keeping the small positive knowledge gap they actually get with this system.
I would like to persuade the Onion team to use for our e-tourer bike, this motor as stock. A CA option for the autoshift could be another thing that could help, maybe, since they have not GOT the TRUE FINAL controller/display combo yet, I think.

I think there is no reason to "feel guilty" - it would have happend anyway.

IMO the XiongDa 2-speed is the real shooting star of this year and I'm grateful to d8veh who brought it to my attention.
It might take some time for bigger companies to realize its potential - both technically as well as commercially - but for sure they will react.

The most genious thing of the XiongDa is that it freewheels backwards. Thats the outstanding and uniqe feature they can and must sell.
All the rest is long time well known retrodirect, anybody else can do just as well. Even me was short of realizing something the like for my DIY needs - happy now, that I can buy it reasonably priced and not having to spent countless hours, hassles and effort in trying to to do it myself.

Making it even just slightly less noisy would certainly open the door to a lot of low cost assembeled bike customers (at least in western countries with hilly areas) and thats possibly the leap they have to focus on the most - if they are not better off by selling just the know how and not the product as such. Not that its really louder as any other geard hub, at least with the FOC sine wave controller I love to ride.
Guess its "only" about selecting the right tolerances mechanically.

Just my thoughts.

 

[panurge]

Yes, of course as said, it was inevitable, and it is even better for us and all the electric world that other manufacturer will adopt the concept.
The freewheling and roll backward feature is the only engineering part that they should have to protect or sell....
For sure bafang has been very reactive, a friend introduceded me to the bafang crew, than they saw the bike and tried the motor, than, in minutes, they decided to get one!!!!

Coming to the XD kit related questions:
I'm very happy with the XD+Lishui+KM5S device so I tried to get answers and solutions to the fact that the lishui controller seems to not open all the features that the Display would offer...
KM say that My KM device has a different firmware itself that's only to make it functional with my Controller that don't open the full features.
I had no info from Lishui, since the lack of communication and, mostly, the guys there, didn't know and/or understand what I was talking about. I got only that they works close with KM so usually they solve quickly any incompatibility among their devices
So no solutions untill now, maybe the ones that are in touch with the Lishui by mail for the firmware and the interface had the chance to talk with some guys from the technical area about this....

 

[docnjoj]

It is probable that some of the larger companies will try to make multispeed motors, particularly due to the success of XiongDa however, they must charge more and perhaps not be as effective. Maybe Xiongda will up the ante and make a more powerful motor?
Interesting times.
otherDoc

 

[drsolly]

I'm rooting for XiongDa. It's my favourite motor, right now, and I'd like the company to succeed.

 

[crossbreak]

ok i missed this thread for some time. Tried so many motors and reviewed them here..The fact that it freewheels backwards wasn't completely unleashed the last time i read..so i that i thought that it was the time of the others to test this one.. how about helical steel gears for this motor 8) https://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=886787#p886787

Nice to see that this one is really an innovation...dont really get how backwards freewheeling works though. Must have to do something with centripetal force? maybe i should reread the whole story. It's a game changer not only for hub motors.

how about a different controller? Has anyone tried yet? I'd like to see field weakening and real FOC within small package...and full control over all features (phase current, throttle ramps...). Kelly "has to" react now too... as other higher priced controllers do FOC now, still they sell the most poerful controllers in a very small package (the KBS-X 55A 72V). Still it seems like they dont react!? Anyone?

 

[endlessly_ending]

Coming to the XD kit related questions:
I'm very happy with the XD+Lishui+KM5S device so I tried to get answers and solutions to the fact that the lishui controller seems to not open all the features that the Display would offer...
KM say that My KM device has a different firmware itself that's only to make it functional with my Controller that don't open the full features.
I had no info from Lishui, since the lack of communication and, mostly, the guys there, didn't know and/or understand what I was talking about. I got only that they works close with KM so usually they solve quickly any incompatibility among their devices
So no solutions untill now, maybe the ones that are in touch with the Lishui by mail for the firmware and the interface had the chance to talk with some guys from the technical area about this....

Good to know you made an attemt to get LiShui guys on the right track. Lets hope it helps some.
Their sine and FOC sine controllers are basically a very good solution and reasonably priced as well.

If they open the door to customer programming - either via KM5s display, which already could make a bunch of featuers available or by a PC software ala Infineons - that would be a welcome step foreward for the DIYers. Dispite the pricy Adaptto there isn't any alternative FOC sine wave solution out there AFAIK when it comes to customer tweaking.

Simply put, you cant work through optimizing your setup by asking the manufactuerer to change a single variable by some amount and then having a "new" firmware sent to be dumped to the controller - as is the case right now with the XD+Lishui+KM5S combo .

 

[docnjoj]

Been riding this motor close to a month now and I have a few observations.
1. Soldering the shunt really did not cause it to pull many more amps. I checked with a Wattmeter and it pretty much agreed with the built in one.
2. The shift switch works great, but automatic is near useless. It does work a bit better when the motor is warmed up.
3. On level ground and even shallow hills (2-3%) High gear works fine to start off. You only need low (at least my rig @ 140 kg) when the hill exceeds about 5%.
4. I am not sure if I have a motor temp sensor, since C8 still reads in watts on either 1 or 0.
5. It is the quietest gear motor I have ever used. that includes Bafangs and some older brushed geared motors from Mongoose 450CX bikes.

Comments are welcome, since I really like little thing, especially the ride as it is about half the weight of the 9C it replaced. Really makes a difference in the rear suspension.
otherDoc

 

[Jonathan in Hiram]

I think these motors are ideal for Europe but riding conditions over here in the US often require more speed to navigate traffic that's largely unused to seeing bicycles on the road at all. At 15 mph I feel like a slowly moving speed bump a lot of times here, some two lane roads I ride on have 55 mph speed limit and cars going 60+ all the time.

It would be interesting to try one of the fast wind motors in a 700c rim on 48v in a lightweight roadie/fast commuter type bike to assist someone who wants to actually pedal some, that sounds like a nearly ideal use for a small motor like this

 

[panurge]

Hey oDoc, I'm happy that at least you find the motor usable even if in the slow side for your needs.
Since I'm happy with mine, laced on a 23+ wheel, I can figure out that it is slow for your purposes.

I would even say again that the Lishui autoshift based only on the speed limit seems to me the best way to go, even if in theory the mixed method would seem better, In most situations, on my 2 bikes, the autoshift logic (15kph shift) works perfect as is, there are only few situations in which it don't shift when needed or in which it shift too much because the cruising speed is around the speed shifting limit, with a bit of confidence You may easily prefigure them while riding, and use the manual mode to avoid any problem.

This Motor Is versatile and is capable of almost twice the torque of the same single speed motor at the output, for a given voltage and current...the question you have to think about while choosing the right gearing/winding of the 2 speed motor for you is:" where, actually, my preferred geared 250w hubmotor lacks of performance for my needs into my bike? in the high or in the low? (speed or torque?) with the extended range achieved by the second speed, and the right motor winds, you could cover the lack of speed or torque respectively, or a bit of the two.

Talking with Justin at Eurobike, He said that would be interesting to see how long this motor would sustain a speed so that in Low gear it turns as was intended for in High gear..... 8) Another crucial question we talked about, was to calculate/prove the power limit (and thus the optimum) for a core motor, at which will be more effective, to add pure motor mass power, rather than adding this mass as a set of gears and a bigger case, and vice-versa.

For reference Both my motors are used in bikes rolling way bigger wheels than the rated specs....20" on a 23"fat wheel and 24" on a 28" wheel, both my motors dislike to start in high speed and have the range extended in both sides (speed and torque) compared to a single speed similar motor, wound/geared for the right wheel diameter; someone could like more to use that extended range of efficiency to one side only (all in speed or mostly in torque like the stock 2 speed motor is intended for) but in any case, 1 to 1.4 kg is what only we've to pay in additional mass, actually, with the XD, comparing it with a similar small hubmotor.

That's the future....guys....

 

[docnjoj]

Interesting report panurge. I guess my 20" wheel and tire allows those starts in Hi gear, even with the large mass of me and the heavy trike. I will see if I can get one of the older Lishui controllers, since appropriate shifting would absolutely be the best.
otherDoc

 

[eMax]

Hi guys

Finally got around to posting about my build. Man this thing goes beautifully! I have it laced in a nice mavic rim on my 26er. has been matched to a 48v 9ah battery. In automatic position the Low gear assists upto 17km/h (11mph) before switching to high after a few seconds delay. It will then take me to around 36km/h (22.5mph) very easily. The motor is very quiet and smooth and mounts without too many issues. The dishing in the wheel is very minor and the width was not a problem like I though it may be. Then again I am using a steel frame which flexes easily.

Overall definitely the best 250w i've tried, and ideal for Australian market. The ability to further program and refine the controller would be nice.

 

[drsolly]

I like the lightness, I like the torque in low. I'm in low gear about 95% of the time, because I'm riding over rough ground and wouldn't go much over 10 mph anyway. And because I'm geocaching, I'm stopping every few hundred meters. The lightness is a plus because it's easier to lift over obstacles.

In low it's very quiet, in high nearly as quiet. With 12s lipos, it does 11-12 mph in low, and when I'm cruising on firm ground at that speed, I'm only pulling 100-150 watts.

I'm hoping that other manufacturers look at this idea and run with it. But I'm hoping that Xiong Da, as the first (that I've seen) with this, keep ahead of the others.

 

[d8veh]

I have two bikes with the Xiongda motor in. I soldered the shunt in both of them and confirmed with a wattmeter that they are both running at 20A. Surely, soldering the shunt must always increase the current limit because it's how the controller's CPU sees the current. I have the first non-sinewave controllers marked http://www.SZKTDZ.com 086-051265576493. I've done over 500 miles now with no problems at 20A.

 

[1boris]

Just ordered a xiongda 2 speed kit laced in 26" wheel with an extra controller from Bonnie (369 usd including shipping).I wanted it laser marked 48v 250w to be legal.that was no problem.I was thinking it is the same motor as the 36 volt version until she told me that they would build the motor for 48volt.and max speed vould be 30 kmt.so it should be even stronger at climbing if it actually has a top speed at 30kmh at 48 volt.If it is the same motor as the 36volt that is ok too.I guess I just have to wait and see what I will get

 

[eMax]

Just ordered a xiongda 2 speed kit laced in 26" wheel with an extra controller from Bonnie (369 usd including shipping).I wanted it laser marked 48v 250w to be legal.that was no problem.I was thinking it is the same motor as the 36 volt version until she told me that they would build the motor for 48volt.and max speed vould be 30 kmt.so it should be even stronger at climbing if it actually has a top speed at 30kmh at 48 volt.If it is the same motor as the 36volt that is ok too.I guess I just have to wait and see what I will get

Better to get it laced locally my friend! The wheel builder should have access to your frame in-case an offset is required on the build. (Thanks Doc) That price seems expensive also.

 

[1boris]

Thanks for the tip.I know.But there is no one locally who can do it.Dishing the wheel I can do myself.

 

[docnjoj]

In a 20" wheel with shunt half soldered I get 16mph top speed in High and 8 mph in Low gear. So About 12 klicks in low and about 26 klicks in High. This with the high speed wind. It is fine for my type of riding. I asked about getting the older speed regulated controller but Yona says they are not using it anymore. She is sending me the latest one. If the poor auto shift can be fixed these motors will rule the world! I'm using 36 volts but am tempted to get 12S Lipo to get a bit more speed.

I love the low unsprung weight on my rear suspension. Rides like it did without the motor. The old rear 9C really needed me to clamp down on the spring and made the ride quite harsh. We ride most of our 20 miles on concrete sidewalk with cut weather strips and the kick in the rear was not wonderful. The ride is now smooth. Lower weight motors really enhance the ride with a suspension. Also the motor is still quiet at about 250 miles.
otherDoc

 

[docnjoj]

triple post
otherDoc
Crap I erased the original.

Got Temperature specs on the motor with an external Infa-red thermometer. I don't believe I have a motor temp sender but I'll find out when I open it. No need to now.

Case 1: Level ground for 10 miles in high gear= 91 degrees F
Case 2: Up a 5-7% hill 1.5 miles long=97 degrees F.
Ambient temp=88 degrees.
Looks like a pretty understressed motor pushing about 300 lbs of trike and me.
otherDoc

 

[panurge]

My motors have never been hot, both my sine and square controllers may overheat a bit, mostly if not well vented or if enclosed.
I've made some raw test on temps too, mostly to compare the 2 controllers option.
I think that:
- Since This motor has more mass, even if not true motor mass and not primarily intended to conduct heat, It works effectively also like this compared to a standard hubmotor with the same core mass.
- for this reason, the temperature rising rate at the can, under load, could be very deviated from what we see on a standard geared motor....
- So, taking temps at the outer can is not probably good to compare it with other motors, but is indeed useful to monitor it at the various amps and voltages, type of duties, or with different controllers, as I did :wink:.....

After a 500 Km of tests with the 2 controller/dispaly combos and the 20" motor on the small fat, I'm now in the phase of testing the 2 into the 700c bike. I will post a datasheet that will collect all the datas of my 4 possible configurations. I'm happy to have 2 of the most stable but different configurations (the square KT one that Dev8h has on his kits and the first Lishui sinewave non FOC with the speed only based autoshift).

Other dissertations:
- My Kt shifts acceptably, at least it shift.... :wink: but since it use also an Amp sense for it, frequently you get an undesired or not needed shift, that is not with the Lishui. there are 2 main reasons I got finally plus some secondary:

1 Speed value could not fluctuate fast and with surges as Amp value does, that make the speed only method, although raw, more effective. An Amp based logic would need a lot more test and code-writing to discover and cover the exceptions....
2 A single variable logic (the speed only in this case) should be more stable in any case (not needing to mix values and create exceptions) compared to a 2 variable (speed and Amps) or even more than 2 (cadence - torque) figuring out future refined controlling options for these retro-direct motors....at least until true developers will put their efforts in it....

Secondarily and maybe consequently, I can confirm now that the shift transition (both auto or manual) is smother and significantly faster with the Lishui, that means your inertial/speed loss is reduced (mostly while up-shifting) compared to the KT

The Lishui SineWave runs the motor really silent (better than any motor I've tested) in high speed and a bit noisy in low
The Kt runs the low speed better, although not silent, but is not comparable in high.

some pics of the actual setup for the hybrid bike.....note that I'm incredibly able to run the suntour procompe 5 speed freewheel with a Campagnolo 10speed....1 click per gear!!!!, also found an acceptable position for the throttle.....if this motor will last with this setup.....it would rocks......

 

[docnjoj]

That is good news, Jules. I am hopefully getting the latest Lishui and more rapid shifting really would help. The shifter from my KT dithers on uphill shifts, which is a killer and requires manual shifting all the time and having to stop or shift down under poor circumstances. Your analysis of the means of using speed vs. speed/amps really makes sense. Thanks.
otherDoc

 

[menvert]

For reference Both my motors are used in bikes rolling way bigger wheels than the rated specs....20" on a 23"fat wheel and 24" on a 28" wheel, both my motors dislike to start in high speed and have the range extended in both sides (speed and torque) compared to a single speed similar motor, wound/geared for the right wheel diameter; someone could like more to use that extended range of efficiency to one side only (all in speed or mostly in torque like the stock 2 speed motor is intended for) but in any case, 1 to 1.4 kg is what only we've to pay in additional mass, actually, with the XD, comparing it with a similar small hubmotor.

That's the future....guys....

HI all,
I have been riding my 36v Lifop04 hub MB for going on 5 years now, but it's time to upgrade...
I have been literally waiting and hoping for a 2 speed to be available, now that it is, I am buying a new light disc brake 700c and now this wonderful looking hub
Regarding specs for this motor I am not yet certain what approach....
My current Hub has enough torque for the few steep hills on my commute, but the 25kph max speed (this is as fast as it goes, it is not limited) is no good anymore.

panurge I agree with your statements from what I have read here, I don't want the standard setup, that just increases my Torque, I want a much better top speed too...
I am only 60kg (I think that's 120lb) so I think getting the 24" windings and lace into a 700c would give me a bit of extra torque and good speed.

Initially I want to use my current Lifop04, which is 12s (about 36v/43v fully charged) BUT should I get the 48v model/controller for the option to upgrade when battery dies?
If I do, will I be making it a poor performer in 36v?

In automatic position the Low gear assists upto 17km/h (11mph) before switching to high after a few seconds delay. It will then take me to around 36km/h (22.5mph) very easily

eMax what windings/wheel size is it for on your 48v setup? because apart from running at 48v that seems to be the sort of specs I want... do you have any steep hills you have been up?

I'd love any comments/ideas - currently either 36 or 48v with 24" windings on a 700c is where I am going, hope for a front disc, but 110 drop probably won't fit...

 

[1boris]

I was told by Bonnie that the 48volt motor I ordered would not work well with the 36volt controller.I guess it would be the same with a 36 v motor and a 48volt controller.Maybe it is the autoshift that dont work well,and it would be ok with manual shift?