A Question About Hills

[BungaEBiker]

I have two basic questions for everyone. I am currently running a 9 Continent front hub motor, it's good on the flats and medium inclines with running 36v @ 20amps. I have two choices facing me and I would like some advice I need some serious hill climbing torque. First question is, what could I do to make my current motor a good hill climber? Second question is, what is the best motor for climbing hills? I have never used a geared hub motor and I would be willing to change out my motor. I would like the advice of people who have used both.
The area I live in St John's Newfoundland Canada, the terrane is all built on a cliff, I am not joking a cliff. It's like the worst parts of San Francesco here. The hills vary from 10 to 15 degree to up to what looks to be about a 40 degrees of incline or long and short distances. There are several hills that are so steep they had to put stairs on the side instead of a sidewalk because it would be to difficult for people to walk up otherwise. That's what i'm faced with, the trip to work is ALL UP HILL and the trip home is lots of fun. That's why I need major hill climbing power. i don't need speed i need torque that can chug it up a hill. I don't' care it it's slow as long as when I get to the top I am not throwing up from the effort or my motor just gives up the ghost. So far what i have been doing is making due and Pushing the bike up the worst hills. IF anyone would like I can provide a map on google maps for them. (just if your interested that is) Thanks again for any and all your advice.

Bunga.

 

[amberwolf]

For truly serious hill climbing power, you might consider running the motor thru the bike gearing. Something like the...cyclone? or the Stokemonkey. Sorry don't remember the name of the systems well.

If you can pedal up the hills (albeit slowly with lots of effort) then the motor can climb them, too, using the same gearing.

A hubmotor (at least geared one, possibly a non-geared one) could probably do it to, but heat dissipation will be an issue, possibly a big one, if the inclines are really steep and long. Might require you to stop and let it cool off periodically.

 

[dogman dan]

For hills that serious, through the chain type setups seem to rule. Stokemonkeys and other chain drive setups like cyclone get the advantage of pulling through the gear system. But since the bikes gears and chain are made for 300 watts person power, problems can happen when you put on 1000 watts though the same thing.

I don't doubt you have steep hills, but in general, dirt won't stick to a 40 degree slope, or snow. 40 degrees is what most people will call vertical. But 25 degrees wouldn't suprise me, especially on a residential street or driveway. 25 degrees is black diamond on ski slopes, and about the grade of most stairs. Through streets and highways really try to stay below 10% but I know of one highway in New Mexico marked 18%

Up to 10%, a 48v powered 9c with more amps than the stock 20 should do it. If your battery is up to it, I'd be temped to try a 35 amp controller first. It's what you need for a bigger motor anyway. Depending on the length of the hills and the length of the whole ride, you should be able to do it without smoking the motor. Just monitor temps at the axle stub so you know when to stop. Stop if you read over 150-160 at the axle, that'll be at least 200F inside.

Above 10% a bmc gearmotor should perform better, but at that steepness you will need to pour the watts to anything, so monitoring temps is again super important.

Above 15%, you have left the room dude. At that point you need the equivilant tourqe of a dirt bike. A stoke monkey may do that depending on the gear ratios, but honestly I don't know for sure. But gear drive though motorcycle size chain may be what you need if you have hills that steep to climb.

The other option for motorcycle performance is a clyte 5304 or 5, 20 or 24 inch wheel, and about 50 amps of 72v. Think the docs bike, or the stealth bomber. Think $$$$$$$$.

 

[paultrafalgar]

Kurt's ebike might be of interest to you:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4936&start=0
The two motors share the load so keep cooler than one.

 

[Drunkskunk]

To get more torque out of what you have, you could relace your wheel from a 26" to a 20". that changes the circumphrence from 81.64" to 62.something", 25% smaller.
that will drop your top speed by 25% but increase your torque by 25%.

Not the best solution though. to climb the steepest hills, you need a fast motor turning through gears. I would skip the stokemonkey. its a hub motor, so lower torque to start with. a Cyclone would give you more torque and weigh less.

Or if you're brave, you could go with an RC setup

 

[BungaEBiker]

Here are a few of the more insain hills we have here. If you view it on google maps and drag the little guy on the top of the zoom you can get a picture of the hill.

this is the intersection of Carters Hill and Livingstone Street
<iframe width="425" height="350" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" marginheight="0" marginwidth="0" src="http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=47.563297,-52.712016&spn=0,359.99673&z=19&layer=c&cbll=47.563175,-52.712132&panoid=mV2GRxPO6mgl1Xsbjf9FVw&cbp=12,313.25,,0,12.6&source=embed&output=svembed"></iframe><br /><small><a href="http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=47.563297,-52.712016&spn=0,359.99673&z=19&layer=c&cbll=47.563175,-52.712132&panoid=mV2GRxPO6mgl1Xsbjf9FVw&cbp=12,313.25,,0,12.6&source=embed" style="color:#0000FF;text-align:left">View Larger Map</a></small>

This is in front of the Basilica It's called Garrison Hill
<iframe width="425" height="350" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" marginheight="0" marginwidth="0" src="http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=47.566461,-52.709704&spn=0,359.99673&z=19&layer=c&cbll=47.566335,-52.709469&panoid=fxNPvwC_DkOmmm3HKKvapA&cbp=12,304.1,,0,15.56&source=embed&output=svembed"></iframe><br /><small><a href="http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=47.566461,-52.709704&spn=0,359.99673&z=19&layer=c&cbll=47.566335,-52.709469&panoid=fxNPvwC_DkOmmm3HKKvapA&cbp=12,304.1,,0,15.56&source=embed" style="color:#0000FF;text-align:left">View Larger Map</a></small>

This is just down the street from the Basilica Queens road and Victoria Street

<iframe width="425" height="350" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" marginheight="0" marginwidth="0" src="http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=47.567323,-52.708762&spn=0,359.99673&z=19&layer=c&cbll=47.567323,-52.708762&panoid=pzmjekSJZmjsoApe8a9abA&cbp=12,121.01,,0,7.95&source=embed&output=svembed"></iframe><br /><small><a href="http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=47.567323,-52.708762&spn=0,359.99673&z=19&layer=c&cbll=47.567323,-52.708762&panoid=pzmjekSJZmjsoApe8a9abA&cbp=12,121.01,,0,7.95&source=embed" style="color:#0000FF;text-align:left">View Larger Map</a></small>

This is the street next to mine. Pilots Hill and Duckworth

<iframe width="425" height="350" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" marginheight="0" marginwidth="0" src="http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=47.568721,-52.703216&spn=0,359.99673&z=19&layer=c&cbll=47.568601,-52.703&panoid=hCF4EIiX_L41-pDW5c_gxw&cbp=12,329.29,,0,-0.46&source=embed&output=svembed"></iframe><br /><small><a href="http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=47.568721,-52.703216&spn=0,359.99673&z=19&layer=c&cbll=47.568601,-52.703&panoid=hCF4EIiX_L41-pDW5c_gxw&cbp=12,329.29,,0,-0.46&source=embed" style="color:#0000FF;text-align:left">View Larger Map</a></small>

This is on my root to work. I typically push the bike up this. it's the intersection of The Boulevard and Pleasantvill Ave, I go from here to the intersection of Herder Place
<iframe width="425" height="350" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" marginheight="0" marginwidth="0" src="http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=47.581017,-52.697889&spn=0,359.99673&z=19&layer=c&cbll=47.580828,-52.697784&panoid=C0lX2tOa5afhZqpdEZZU0Q&cbp=12,4.68,,0,10.92&source=embed&output=svembed"></iframe><br /><small><a href="http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=47.581017,-52.697889&spn=0,359.99673&z=19&layer=c&cbll=47.580828,-52.697784&panoid=C0lX2tOa5afhZqpdEZZU0Q&cbp=12,4.68,,0,10.92&source=embed" style="color:#0000FF;text-align:left">View Larger Map</a></small>

I think the City planners who set this place up where insane with syphilis or something (too far back to be on crack) This would make a horse shiver and check it's shoes. This should be a little more informative as to the challenge I have. Best way to judge the street steepness is look at the buildings on either side. Some are two stories on one side and three on the back. I am unsure how to find the grade of the hills. I was thinking of going out with my GPS and checking the elevation from sea level on the top and bottom and then finding the length of the hill. IF you guy's want I could do that.

 

[BungaEBiker]

Almost forgot. paultrafalgar I was thinking of a duel motor set up with another 9C on the back but the only duel controller I can find is a 20 amp. Its here
http://ca.itselectric.ca/Crystalyte_Dual_Motor_controller_p/ctrl-crystal-c7220dm.htm

 

[paultrafalgar]

If you search the spher for dual motor controllers you wil find some useful stuff:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&keywords=%2B%22dual+%2Bmotor+%2Bcontroller+

 

[BungaEBiker]

I just had a thought, is it possible to splice the motor wires and hall censer wires to run two motors off one controller?

 

[AussieJester]

I just had a thought, is it possible to splice the motor wires and hall censer wires to run two motors off one controller?

no

Dogman guyz are running up near 20hp through bicycle size chain without issue they are far strong enough mate :-S

KiM

 

[Chalo]

Stokemonkeys and other chain drive setups like cyclone get the advantage of pulling through the gear system. But since the bikes gears and chain are made for 300 watts person power, problems can happen when you put on 1000 watts though the same thing.

Human power is usually limited to a _sustained_ 300W or so. (Elite racers like Lance can sustain about 500W.) Surges of power can be well over 2000W for an athletic person. Momentary power can be much higher yet, because legs don't give steady continuous force all the way around the pedal stroke. Normal chain drives work well on racing tandems, which put two athletes' pedals in sync with each other.

#410 motorcycle chain, used on lightweight motocross and mini bikes, is basically one-speed bicycle chain. Those motorcycles are low powered but still in the multi-kilowatt range. Their engines deliver power in pulses, which are more damaging than the steady torque of an electric motor.

About the only distinction of e-motors in terms of the strain they put on bicycle drivetrains is the large amount of starting torque they can muster and the abruptness with which they can deliver it. For those of us using throttled controllers instead of contactors, that shouldn't be too much of an issue.

It is good to keep in mind when using a chain-driven e-bike that power levels are higher overall than normal, and therefore it is especially important to have attentive maintenance, good chainline, quality components, etc.

Chalo

 

[dogman dan]

Well, I stand corrected about chains. I have broken the chain on my cheap bike just pedaling, but then, we're talking cheap bike. I've never broken a chain on a good bike. Stuff will wear out fast though if the chains and sprockets are mismatched, crooked or anthing like that. I know I have read about people having trouble with the cyclone stuff, but then that kit may have been installed wonky or put onto a cheap bike. It could be misused too, in the wrong gear for the grade.

Anyway, it is an issue I think that with chain drive stuff can't be out of whack without wearing out. Just like the dropouts are the issue with a front hub.

I do think though, that to get up a hill that's 25 degrees, degrees man not percent, you need more than one hubmotor, or you need Dr Bass's bike. If I lived there I'd be looking for a trials motorcycle in a 250cc.

 

[amberwolf]

Chain is definitely a lot stronger than it's given credit for. On CrazyBike2, the only chains that broke were ones that first:

--slipped off the front triple and wrapped around the crank, pulled the wheel out of the rightside dropout, crushed the rim against the stays while bending the axle, and then finally began to bend and snap links.

--slipped off the leftside jackshaft, caught against the other chain on the jackshaft, pulled itself up over the much larger ring of the other chain, taco'd the front triple's outer ring, caught again in the motor's chain, and then began bending and snapping a single link.

I'd say that's takin' some abuse.

I can't remember for sure what the wattage levels were at peak for the second situation, but they were unbelievably high fir the first, about 3500W. That's at 36V. The second time was with 48V, and a higher-current-capable controller, so I dunno how high it got. I must've forgotten to write it down, because it isn't in my blog post.

 

[hillbilly]

BungaEbiker:

If you can wait a few weeks I'll hopefully be able to post a first-person account of using a StokeMonkey on steep hills. I've just taken the plunge and ordered a kit -- I'll install it on a Big Dummy cargo bike and test the setup against Lookout Mountain, just behind our cabin. I'll also get an inclinometer and try to verify the actual slope on the steepest portions of the climb.

I've investigated just about every reasonable alternative for a serious hillclimbing ebike. I finally settled on the StokeMonkey because of the high quality components, ease of installation and (more-or-less) affordable price. I came very close to buying a Crystalyte 5305 from Max (see the For Sale forum) but that would have required more battery than I can afford.

Anyway, my search for the perfect hillclimbing kit is too long of a tale to recount here. I finally came to the conclusion that personal experience is the only way to really get a clear answer on this particular topic. Perhaps my experience with the StokeMonkey will also point you toward a solution.

Stay tuned!

 

[spinningmagnets]

Your 9C is a front hub. I recommend a 24" or 20" rear wheel (as the other posters have suggested) If you have a rear suspension, you can add a shock-mount extension to pivot the suspension arm down farther so the smaller wheel does not cause the pedals to hang so low as to hit the ground.

The recipe for a hill-climbing monster is a small drive wheel, a high-RPM motor and a massive geardown. It also needs a jackshaft to keep sprocket diameters reasonable (rather than custom ordered). Add a freewheel to the jackshaft so the chain is still back-driven, but the primary belt and motor are not driven when you pedal. Pic is a 20" wheel with a 47-tooth chainring being used as a sprocket.



Here's a pic of the well-known Peltzer E-bike. Copy this, but with a larger sprocket on the wheel and a smaller diameter wheel. Gear/volt it for walking speed and add a ducted air-fan to the non-hub motor that you can switch on if it gets too hot. If the motor never gets too hot (even on the steepest hills) you can get a smaller sprocket for the rear wheel so it can go a little faster.

Only use the 9C on the reasonably flat roads, and only the non-hub on the steep hills.

http://www.peltzer.net/ebike/

 

[spinningmagnets]

I can see that if you slowly climb up one side of a steep hill, there is a temptation to speed down the other side. I am not a fan of regen for most E-bikes, but in your case it may be worth the hassle. This is where the motor on a downhill becomes a generator putting "some" charge back into the battery.

The charging benefit is small, but the felt effect is that the motor becomes an electric brake, which helps prevent the stock wheel brakes from overheating. Also research "plug brake".

Best of luck...

 

[dogman dan]

I have to agree with spinningmagnets. Blower cooled motors would be good for monster climbs. A stokemonkey could be air cooled if you need it though. I'm not sure about cyclones, no experience with em. You definitely need the gearing advantage that is similar to a trials motorcycle. The one I had, you started out in 3rd gear most of the time. 1st was crazy low. Something with a no load full throttle speed of about 5 mph is needed for 25 degrees.

We couldn't get the links to the google maps.

 

[BungaEBiker]

Lets try that again shall we.

Carters Hill and Livingstone Street
http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=47.563221,-52.712252&spn=0,359.973843&z=16&layer=c&cbll=47.563175,-52.712132&panoid=mV2GRxPO6mgl1Xsbjf9FVw&cbp=12,297.25,,0,12.09


This is in front of the Basilica It's called Garrison Hill
http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=47.566335,-52.709469&spn=0,359.973843&z=16&layer=c&cbll=47.566285,-52.709377&panoid=i14y32237xCY9pPskOq04w&cbp=12,289.49,,0,10.49

This is just down the street from the Basilica Queens road and Victoria Street
http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=47.566768,-52.709227&spn=0,359.973843&z=16&layer=c&cbll=47.567323,-52.708762&panoid=pzmjekSJZmjsoApe8a9abA&cbp=12,134.45,,0,12.97


This is the street next to mine. Pilots Hill and Duckworth
http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=47.568659,-52.703105&spn=0,359.973843&z=16&layer=c&cbll=47.568601,-52.703&panoid=hCF4EIiX_L41-pDW5c_gxw&cbp=12,314.7,,0,9.03

This is on my root to work. I typically push the bike up this. it's the intersection of The Boulevard and Pleasantvill Ave,

http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=47.580825,-52.697779&spn=0.002055,0.013078&z=17&layer=c&cbll=47.580828,-52.697784&panoid=C0lX2tOa5afhZqpdEZZU0Q&cbp=11,0.74,,0,5.01

I go from There to the intersection of Taylor Place (little edit there, was one street off)
http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=47.582041,-52.69824&spn=0,359.986922&z=17&layer=c&cbll=47.582047,-52.698023&panoid=xySND26Eu--Hw0zXKddkdg&cbp=12,193.14,,0,8.91


This is an extra one. It's a brute to get up
its Kannas Hill
http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=47.578132,-52.704045&spn=0,359.986922&z=17&layer=c&cbll=47.578221,-52.704074&panoid=UIpxQAwBxp6ObPa1_iCh6Q&cbp=12,261.91,,0,6.33

I'm going to use my gps when I go to work tonight and see the elevation above sea level where my house is and then see what it is outside of work. I fiture that plus the distance will give me a rough idea of the grade. I'm unusre how to get it but somone in here must. sorry about the fowlup with the previous links. I should have tested them first. there are two options and the second one seemed more detailed. They are both the same as it turns out. one is a link the other is for inbedding in html code.

So far all of the ideas seems doable accept the gas powered bike. Gas engines are out of the question. I am unable to obtain a permit/licence for one. That's why I'm sticking to electric because I don't need the paperwork. I am visually impaired and have enough vision for a bicycle/ e-bike but not for a scooter or moped.

 

[Lock]

I'll also get an inclinometer and try to verify the actual slope on the steepest portions of the climb.

Hey billy... easy enough ta make yer own eg:

tks
loCk

 

[spinningmagnets]

A degree protractor can be useful for finding out how steep a hill is, so we all have the same frame of reference. Some may wish to find the per-cent of grade, such as is found on public highway signs (6% is steep..18% is a monster).

It's a simple formula. For every 100 feet of road length, the number of feet the road rises (or drops) is the % of grade.

For us, you could eyeball the the location of the steepest section of the road you wish to measure. Find a string and mark the middle of it in a 100-inch section. Tie one end to a brick so that one mark is right at the brick, then stretch the string out level. You can use a carpenters $5 string-level. At the 100-inch mark use a vertical tape measure to see how many inches there is from the string to the ground, and thats your per-cent of grade...a 100% grade would be 45-degrees. (I used to work as a grade checker)

 

[Lock]

You can use a carpenters $5 string-level.

...Or a few feet of clear hose or at least translucent enough to see water in it. Held in a "U" shape, the levels that the water reaches up to in each leg of the U can be a very accurate measure of level...

Only caveat might be that 100" (so only about 8 feet) may not be a very representative sampling for a much longer hill...

tks
Loc

 

[paultrafalgar]

BungaEbiker, you might find this site interesting:
http://www.mapmyride.com/

 

[BungaEBiker]

paultrafalgar thanks. I alway's enjoy paroozing a good map. Sadly there are no bike trails here. This is one of the most bicycle unfriendly places in Canada. The legislation here pretty much treats us like a form of motorcycle. We are only allowed on rodes and we can't get in the way of traffic. No bikes lanes, no bike trails no nothing. According to local regulations bicycles are not allowed on: public property, no public parks. walking trails, side walks(no brainier on that one) and we are supposed to yield to traffic. It has allot to do with the culture, this is one huge rural community here. The idea of making it is measured in owning a house and a huge yard to go along with your HUGE truck camper and boat. The classical symbol of a Newfie who's rolling in money is a huge pick up truck all decked out. So bicycles are seen as a symbol of poor people. Not allot of people wan't to be seen as poor but I'm different I could care less what the opinions of strangers are.

 

[paultrafalgar]

Right on, bungaebiker! F**k the gasguzzling bourgousie. What we need is an inflated "skirt" around our bikes that makes them the size of a giant truck, weighs nothing almost and prevents them easily overtaking. Soon change their minds about letting bikes on trails and paths.
But we digress... hills...

 

[dogman dan]

Map my ride is the place to get accurate % of hills. Map only very short sections of the route at a time, like 1/2 mile to 1 mile for the most accurate readings. It doesn't have to be a bike trail, but it does have to be a road old enough to be in the database. If you calulate %, the measurment of distance is on the horizontal plane of the hill. Not the angle the road is on. I used to think my hill to the house was 10% till I looked at map my ride. So use map scale distance, not odometer distance traveled.

Hoo boy, I didn't doubt those hills are steep. One looked to me to rise almost 3 feet over 10-12 feet by counting siding on the house. That would be approaching 30 degrees. Truck drivers must loath your town! Those look steep in photos so they are truly ass kickers. The photo that looks flat is still more than 5% I bet.

Now that I get it about the license I'll shut up about a motorcycle. Some places it just merely expensive. Where I live I forget that. My scooter costs me under $200 a year to licence and insure, and I've had the motorcycle endorsment forever.

If most of those hills are under 15%, I'd think a good gearmotor would do. Much simpler to build, mabye use the controller you have etc. But above that I couldn't say for sure. I hear of stokemonkeys climbing crazy steep though.