Anti-wheelie device

[Skedgy Sky]

So many of us have wheelie machines, right?
Even with a throttle tamer and extended swing arm, my bike still tends to wheelie at take off!

So I'm proposing some type of device that detects when the front wheel lifts off the ground and either cuts or suppresses the throttle signal! It could even be as simple as an on/off switch inline with the throttle. When suspension extends fully, throttle is cut off. I'm thinking this may cause jerkiness, but seems very simple and like it could work pretty well.

What do you guys think? Any other ideas?

 

[cal3thousand]

What about embracing the wheelie? Wheelie bar FTW!!!

 

[Tench]

Wheel speed sensors might be better, when accelerating if the front lifts its wheel speed will start to fall but the rear wheel speed will keep rising, some form of roll back on the power in this situation would also double as traction control. It might also be achieved with g sensors.

Justin, we need a new feature in the V3!

But not until after we have the Audi style wheelie function!

 

[adriftatsea]

As a guy who makes electronics, I see this solved a number of ways.

At it's most basic, a level switch in-line with the throttle signal. They come in simple 'metal ball in a tube' or a 'conductive float in a fluid' style and run <$3 even on a breakout board with some .1" molex connector pins.

At a higher-level of abstraction you can use the accelerometer - sending either a GPIO output to trip a relay in the throttle signal line - or canbus to whatever is generating the signal. But you'll need some basic processing from your controller or an android phone to parse both the signal and do some math on change in angle over time.

My motor is still on the way (I hope) and I hope to implement something similar for hill decent control.

edit - the wheelspeed sensor isn't really plausible, as the delta between the front and rear wheels is often encouraged if you're really wanting to use 'wheelie protection' as a way to maximize traction.

edit #2 - It's worth pointing out that the cheap level sensors are really unreliable both physically and the noise from vibration when sampling it with an Arduino'ish device. You'll want a Kalman filter rather than more basic filtering schemes. I really think using the accelerometer on your phone and sending either a GPIO output to trip a relay in the throttle signal line - or canbus to whatever is generating the signal.

 

[wingsuit]

my idea would be to embrace the wheelie and learn to harness it. rarely do I ride around with 2 wheels touching the ground. so much fun, after awhile you can go around corners or on and off curbs without putting your front wheel down.

if your serious about it I'd suggest it would be something you'd need built in to the controller, or sensor input put through an arduino somehow. only because I think to not be jerky you'd want it to back off throttle gently when detecting front wheel lift, like a traction control. otherwise could be quite jerky, as cutting the trottle would likely cut acceleration enough that suspension would be hit hard as bike slowed which would signal that full throttle is ok to engage again, so unless you backed off the throttle it would jackhammer.

 

[gogo]

A wet clutch would allow control and serve as an emergency power interrupt. A slipper clutch would perform a similar function without the complete interrupt feature, although it might allow power delivery to be snubbed by the brakes.

 

[Chalo]

How much easier would it be just to use a bike with appropriate weight distribution for the job?

Like, you know, maybe a motorcycle frame if you're going to use motorcycle torque? Or at least a frame with longer than normal chainstays? At the point where you're no longer doing a bicycle's job, maybe it isn't appropriate to be using a bicycle for that.

Getting your handlebars down lower and having some of your weight on them works wonders, too. Most of the e-bikers I see are set up like a dog begging for snacks.

 

[Drunkskunk]

It's been a while, but there was a post about a speaker at Maker Faire, or something. He'd built an Electric motorbike with accelerometers that could sense a wheelie and stop it, or hold the wheelie at any angle they wanted.

Sounds awesome to me.

I solved the problem on my bike by extending my rear swing arm. I can get the front wheel up, but not without trying.

 

[MadRhino]

If you don't want the front to lift, correct the geometry for this purpose. A bike will never lift when it is designed to drift.

Then, if you want it to lift but need to electronically limit the wheelie angle, it is another story. Electronic gyroscope and a bit of sofware can do the job, but not so simple and you will need to test a lot to tune.

 

[Tench]

Come to think of it, its a stupid idea, just use the throttle and learn to ride! a cut out that could face plant you over the bars climbing a few steps sounds like a very bad idea!

 

[bionx 1954]

I use a mercury level switch wired to my horn as a anti theft also with lock. When my bike is parked and tilted sideways the horn is activated.. Maybe you could use it to cut ignition wire power to controller. Maybe in a angle adjuster bracket, so you could find the proper angle needed.

 

[John in CR]

I talked to Justin about it over a year ago, and he was already considering the use of an inclinometer for the CA3 to limit the controller differently on hills. He said once an inclinometer is incorporated the programming for wheelie control is simple. If enough others make the request too I'm sure he can make it happen.

 

[crea2k]

Cant you just get a sine wave controller, they have a much smoother power delivery.

 

[oatnet]

I use a front-mounted battery pack to help keep the nose down. :lol:

-JD

 

[amberwolf]

Cant you just get a sine wave controller, they have a much smoother power delivery.

Unless there's something else (like soft-start, etc) differnet about the sine-wave vs regular (trapezoidal) controller, it won't make any difference to this particular problem. TZ types already have soft-start/etc features that could do this, too, but then you also can't ever get that kind of startup power if you *do* need it (unless you can wire up a bypass for the feature on a particular controller).

The difference in SW vs TZ types is just in how it sends power to each phase, not in how it applies power at startup.

 

[r3volved]

Why not use a CA with a 3pos switch and have a low torque curve for no wheelies and a higher torque curve for when you're riding where you need the ability to hop your tire?
Seems dangerous to try and hop up a curb and have your bike cut out.

 

[Allex]

Cant you just get a sine wave controller, they have a much smoother power delivery.

Unless there's something else (like soft-start, etc) differnet about the sine-wave vs regular (trapezoidal) controller, it won't make any difference to this particular problem. TZ types already have soft-start/etc features that could do this, too, but then you also can't ever get that kind of startup power if you *do* need it (unless you can wire up a bypass for the feature on a particular controller).

The difference in SW vs TZ types is just in how it sends power to each phase, not in how it applies power at startup.

So a small correction. Better to have a controller wich have Power based throttle(eg adaptto) instead of speed based(eg Infinion).
If you have 130 DC amps on an Infinion a noob will flip over with that bike. This is because it spits out all the power it is programmed for if you try to accelerate from 0 to 10
But if you give the noob same bike but with, say, adaptto controller it will be silky smooth because of the power based throttle- twist a little and it will give you 1 Amp, twist a bit more and it will give you 10 and so on.

 

[TotalConfusion]

Isnt this one of the reasons i bought a CAV3?

Wont using the Throttle ramping control this from happening?

I was under the inpression if you set up the throttle ramping on the Ca it would reduce the effects of being able to lift the from wheel or is there alot more too it than i was thinking as ive set up my ramping at 1.5 volts a second plus using a 3 speed switch i can change on the go.

 

[John in CR]

The best solution for no wheelies is to lengthen the wheelbase to move the CG forward and then lower the CG too. The other solutions cost you acceleration, which to me is the most awesome part of epowerbiking. I don't know why so many accept all of the compromises of a big heavy motor, and then can't really even use it due to the short wheelbase and high and rearward cg. Smaller, lighter, well ventilated motors (not just holes, since who has ever seen a fan whose blades were a plate with holes?) will do the same job with significantly less unsprung weight.

 

[r3volved]

Isnt this one of the reasons i bought a CAV3?

Wont using the Throttle ramping control this from happening?

I was under the inpression if you set up the throttle ramping on the Ca it would reduce the effects of being able to lift the from wheel or is there alot more too it than i was thinking as ive set up my ramping at 1.5 volts a second plus using a 3 speed switch i can change on the go.

That's exactly what I did and works great. Zombiess throttle tamer worked well for me before the CA, but the CA lets me use multiple (switchable) 'throttle tamer'-like presets.

Pos1 = legal mode
(limiting speed with medium ramping, but still able to pop a small wheelie...works well for giving test rides to more experienced riders)

Pos2 = Eco mode
(limiting amps with low ramping and will not wheelie unless you're actually trying to wheelie as a peddle bike...meant to limp around and giving test rides)

Pos3 = unlimited
(no amp/speed limits and high ramping INTENDED to pop the front wheel up and burn out capable...sketchy -the way I like it- and takes throttle practice...I don't let other people use this setting)

I hit a bunch of stop lights on my work commute and I like to use Eco off-the-line and switch to unlimited or legal after I get going. I usually stick to unlimited on trails.