Any experience with small geared outrider motors?

[neptronix]

I've been on the hunt for a small yet powerful and efficient geared motor lately.
The current top contender is the Q128H, which i have convinced BMSbattery to make a 260rpm x 36v winding of, but am waiting for them to put the "faster" winding up for sale.

http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/ebike-parts/motors/moutrider-std.html

The outrider geared motor, per the ebikes.ca simulator looks pretty darn impressive. Anyone have real world experience with it?

 

[BikeFanatic]

I have a Tonxin geared motor that looks very similar to that motor pictured. It is small, only weighs 6 pounds, but not very powerful. I get about 18
mph on 12s Lipo in 20 inch wheel , mostly pulls 6-7 amps on 35 amp controller.

DIDN'T your sig read "Avoid BMS Battery like the plage"?

 

[neptronix]

This is not a roller motor afaik, some pictures of it elsewhere include gears in the pic.

I don't like BMSbattery, but they are the only retailer of the Q128H. 800W in a 6.6lb package is impressive enough for me to roll the dice, yet the outrider motor looks to be a little more efficient, not as powerful, but somewhere between the Q100H and the Q128H.. so i'm looking for some feedback/experience..

 

[Jonathan in Hiram]

The fast one looks pretty good on a 20" wheel @48V for my area but we don't have really long and steep hills, more rolling country than mountainous.

Your area and ride may be different of course, you'd smoke that thing pretty easy on the wrong ride.

 

[neptronix]

I expect the motor only to pull low duty, not be like any of the other torque beasts i've built.

Anyway, i've got a apre front one with some blemishes on order for testing, so i suppose that i will be the guinea pig for this motor.

Ultimately i will want a rear motor version of this in the future if it lives up to my expectations.

 

[Drunkskunk]

That thing looks exactly like the 350w motor ebikekit and ampedbikes sold. I have one from Ebikekit and it's an impressive little motor.

 

[neptronix]

Different beast. I owned one of those. Unfortunately i never pumped up the power on it.

A lot of small geared motors do look the same. It can be hard to tell them apart.

Here's what the outrider stator looks like.

This is an ampedbikes/mxus/ebikekit DD stator ( burned in this pic, but it was the only one i could easily find )

 

[d8veh]

I thought Outrider had taken over the production of Tongxin motors.

 

[neptronix]

They did. But this design is different.

Anyway i managed to get a front one with some cosmetic defects at a discount and am having it spoked up into a wheel; should have it ready fairly soon.

The funny part is that the smallest controller i have is a 12fet... will have to detune it significantly.. lol.

 

[Danschutz]

Any updates? Ive thought about putting one of these on my Felt Z80, carbon fork though that may be an issue?

Dan L.

 

[neptronix]

Don't run any motor on a carbon fork - that's a really bad idea! it'd not built to handle that!

What a coincidence though - i just finally got the bike up and running today. The motor is spoked into a 26" front wheel. I don't have any quantifiable performance numbers yet, but here's what i got so far:

I started out with 47v / 20A. The motor was actually quite strong; not anything like my rear 8T MAC, but similar to my front MAC ( old 350w version, which is a pound lighter and has a kinda narrower stator ).

I certainly was cruising around the >25mph mark, but the motor got rather hot in a short period of time. The power was nice, but i feel like i was close to saturating it at 940w peak

Okay, so i gradually dialed the power down to 18A/38v ( ~700w peak ) and found that that's about where it is happy. It cruises at about 300w at around 20mph with pedaling input. It seems rather efficient, going off of my cycle analyst, but i am running the motor through a detuned 12FET with 4110's ( the smallest controller i have, lol ), so i'm sure that on a 6FET with 3077 FETs, it's a bit more efficient than that

I'm pretty impressed with it for the fact that it is only 5lbs, 3 oz ( 2.35kg ) as a bare hub. It is certainly more gutsy than my 250W MXUS 26" wheel kit. I never bumped up the power on the MXUS hub though ( 15A, 36v, top speed was 18mph ), so i'm not sure if it's significantly a better hub.

I can say that this hub seems a good fit for cruising along at 20mph. I have the 120% setting on my cell_man/em3ev controller if i want to go a little faster than that on a flat or downhill.

 

[Danschutz]

Well that was good timing lol. Thank you for your review.

Sounds like a lot of fun. Doesn't require much battery power, seems like a standard generic controller would work well and you can peddle around in stealth mode to boot. It would be simple enough to swap out my fork and with those skinny road bike tires (700's) I think it would be a nice short commuter. I really liked that Felt but ever since I bought my Cannondale super six (full carbon) it just hasn't been ridden.

I've had the Felt up to nearly 30 with just peddle power, how would this motor benefit me if I'm working my way up through the gears? At some point will it simply not be able to assist or is it just plain bad news to wind it up that fast? It would be fun to peddle around 25-30 without using to much energy.

Dan L.

 

[neptronix]

No, i'd never push a small geared motor like this that far. You'd want something like the MAC/BMC motors or a Bafang BPM for reliable use.. otherwise you will just be making a lot of heat and could easily melt the bugger.

This is maybe a 350-400w continuous motor. Not so great for over 20mph unless you have a really aerodynamic bike set up and are rather skinny or short. Then you could expect to hold 25 on the flats, sure.

 

[majornelson]

neptronix,

Still like the Q128H? I have an 8T Mac also which has great top end but grinds below about 10 mph. How is the Q128H in this respect?

Lee

 

[motomech]

Although they are the same weight, from your description, I believe the MXUS is a little stronger.
12S/20A is the sweet spot for mine. I run a 22A Mini-Monster and heat is not a problem(Even here in Tucson), but it gets a little "growly"at that power level under full throttle, which tells me it's getting near the limit.
Mountain bike, 26"whl., 250# rider, no pedal:
11S=22 mph
12S=23.5 mph
All day speed in the flat.

 

[neptronix]

I don't have a Q128H. BMSbattery promised me a higher RPM winding in X amount of time but never made it available.
Given the fact that i don't like them anyway, i've decided to not bother with it.

neptronix,
Still like the Q128H? I have an 8T Mac also which has great top end but grinds below about 10 mph. How is the Q128H in this respect?

Lee

Motomech, you may be correct; i wish i had a chance to have had pushed my 26" MXUS rear to higher power levels to compare. But this is a good amount of power for the weight in my opinion.

The outrider is also growly at low RPM.
Both of our motors have fairly low pole counts; it's pretty typical for them to exhibit some vibration and nasty noise at lower power levels. A MAC will do that up to a couple MPH, then it's smooth sailing after that.. all due to having 2 times the poles & roughly the same reduction ratio.

Low pole counts can be great for efficiency when the windings are nice and tight.. it's a tradeoff

 

[majornelson]

I'm considering either a 10T or 12T MAC from em3ev for another bike. I've noticed how my 8T feels like it's mashing gears or grinding at lower speeds.

Do you think the 10 or 12T will be smoother in this respect?

 

[neptronix]

Could be that you have the phase amps set too low. what are your settings?

 

[majornelson]

I'm using Paul's stock 9 FET controller. It says it is 30 amps...

http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=38&product_id=79

Don't get me wrong, it runs fine but I don't like to go WOT at lower speeds. But the time it reaches 17 mph or so it sounds fine. It's been like this since I bought it.

Maybe it needs more grease or maybe it's just normal behavior?

 

[neptronix]

some sound would be nice... post a video to another thread so we don't end up cluttering this one.

 

[El_Steak]

Hey neptronix, I'm thinking of getting the outrider hub for a commuter bike (700c wheel, 12s lipo, small 15A grin controller). I'm discussing it here: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=60867

Just checking with you if you're still happy with it. Also, do you use the disk brake mount on it ? In my past experience with other hubs, I found that more often than not the disk mounts and/or covers are not flush and you end up with a wobbly disk. Just wondering if I can expect the same from this hub.

 

[motomech]

My experience with the MXUS, a couple versions of the Andana Cute and the orig. Ezee, is that all the disc mounting surfaces were perfect.

 

[motomech]

An interesting feature on the MXUS wheel build is, all the spokes are "inners", making their bend on the inside of the flange.
If a more conventional arrangement of "inners" and "outers" was used, the outers would hit most calipers.
Looking at the spoke kit available for this MXUS "look a like", it would appear to be the same set-up.

 

[neptronix]

Hey man... long time, no see! i remember when you were teachin' me some good stuff about lipos a looong time ago..

Anyway yeah, it's a great motor and i'm happy with it for what i've tasked it to do ( 25mph ). Now running on 19A x 36v and she seems to be fairly happy cruising along at 20-25 in very mildly hilly territory with a 206lb. rider on top.

On higher voltage ( 12S ), it seems to not be so happy in a 26" wheel and gets hotter, but has a good amount of grunt, really! So watch out with the higher voltages.. i mean, it's a high speed winding and all..

The disk mounting is flush, but you will have to play some washer roulette with the disk brake area to get it to fit proper.

Hey neptronix, I'm thinking of getting the outrider hub for a commuter bike (700c wheel, 12s lipo, small 15A grin controller). I'm discussing it here: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=60867

Just checking with you if you're still happy with it. Also, do you use the disk brake mount on it ? In my past experience with other hubs, I found that more often than not the disk mounts and/or covers are not flush and you end up with a wobbly disk. Just wondering if I can expect the same from this hub.

 

[El_Steak]

I'm surprised but happy to see you still remember me, you've been quite active here with over 11000 posts!

Thanks for confirmationing that the cover is OK for disk brakes. This opens up a few more bike options with CroMo forks. I also like the fact that the disk hides the hub and makes the bike stealthier.