Assistance required, you opinions needed!

[emaayan]

The editor of a motor vehicle in the leading Israeli news site(ynet) has given me the opportunity to write a pro-ebike column for a change.

write now Israel is embracing ONLY the UK pedalec standard, and now plans to even legislate and require license and registration for that, something that to my knowledge doesn't exists.

i'm interested in examples in other areas of the world where ebikes above 250w are legislated, (fees, prices, procedures, insurance,fines ) i know that for example i think in Germany it's a simple process, and maybe in other areas. this includes registration and handling ebikes with kit as well.

i'm also interested in the state of mind about underage kids (under 14) riding ebikes (usually this is what they do, by aborting the P.A.S and throttle) in the cities

apart from that i'd like to bring general opinions about converting bicycles to ebikes, general guidelines on how it's not always so dangerous as they would have you believe (i.e, use DH frames, no cheap crap).

there's has been an anti-ebike propaganda in israel for sometime now, every injury is headlined, and committee screaming for more fines.

 

[technopeasant]

If injuries are occurring, then a response promoting safety, particularly safety of pedestrians or children, is probably a good idea. In San Francisco, pedestrians are occasionally run down and killed by regular cyclists, and of course, cyclists are too-often run down and killed by automobiles. We have a kind of tunnel vision when it comes to speed, no matter what form of conveyance we use. Rules of the road are in place to protect people. So vehicles yield to bikes, bikes yield to pedestrians. In my perfect world, space for ebikes would be carved out of the roadway areas automobiles use. We're not there yet, but it is unrealistic to think that ebikes can forever share the hard-won space that regular cyclists have gained, or that which pedestrians use. Where I live, Marin County, California, ebikes are very rare, so for now, automobiles are by far the biggest "problem." I look forward to the day that bicycles, or even ebicyles are a similar problem (though I don't expect to live that long). No matter what one's preference, things that go fast need to be safe, for everyone, not just the wingnut behind the wheel.

 

[ecycler]

Follow the trail of horse shit to the bags of money. There's your leprechaun.

There will always be a strong business/political agenda against ebikes, because it just makes too much sense. With very little capital resources and waste, a human can provide themselves with a genuine, healthy, and energy efficient mode of transportation in urban environments. Business hates this because there is just not much profitability in such cheap vehicles. Governments hate this because there isn't much there to tax.

There are so few people riding around on ebikes that at this point in time there is just not enough data to provide any statistically relevant information as to their safety. My personal experience is that I am far safer riding in traffic on my faster ebikes than my slower ones because I have fewer encounters with cars who are not looking out for bicycles. The only bike that gets me consistently yelled at by motorists is the one that tops out at 15mph and slows them down. Who knows, we may eventually find that there are far less people dropping dead from heart attacks (#1 killer in most developed countries) than deaths by ebike if we can make this fun way to regularly stress the cardiovascular system with the safety net of still arriving at one's destination more common.

Any bicycle will do upwards of 30mph when you go down a big enough hill. That is fast enough to kill and people are just not crashing in droves on human powered bikes when they achieve these speeds and beyond. There is some element of darwinism and I have flirted with it myself when clocking 36mph on a 20 year old beach cruiser tandem with my wife on the back headed down a large bridge. The beauty of it is, the bicyclists are primarily only endangering themselves if they are not on a sidewalk or in highly dense areas with pedestrians.

If you are going to make people register an ebike that goes slower than a human on a road bike, then when does it stop? Am I going to have to start registering my super high-tech springy shoes because the technology lets me run as fast as the ebike and gives me equal potential to endanger myself and the public without any batteries or motors involved? It is really sad to see the developed world turn into such a population of fat limps regulated by corporations and greedy politicians limiting their every move in some way.

 

[ecycler]

Conclusion: The biggest safety risk to ebikers and traditional bikers alike is the same thing. Idiots in cars not paying attention or driving overly aggressive around them.

 

[emaayan]

that's true, i know of no instances where 250 watts pedalecs are required for licensing ? do you?
i just read an article how cops pulled out the air from a 17 year old who rode on the sidewalks. how will it be handled there?

i'm trying to look for simple uses cases of registration and licensing of other types. getting rid of the notion that anything higher then 250 watts isn't considered safe.

for example if i have a mid-drive with a 2000 watt kit, are there any instances of it being legislated? i see that most u.s laws are stopping at 500-1000 watts
according this this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws there are cases higher then that, but i don't know what is BRAKE horse power (as opposed to just horse power) , or how to convert cc (as some entries are listed as 50 cc)

how would you register your e-bikes?

 

[ecycler]

750w is equal to 1 hp.

Where I live there are no laws on the books yet specifically about ebikes, but they do have legislation for motorized bikes with engines and they must not go faster than 30mph under power. I find it generally reasonable and hope they ignore ebikes for some time to come and that I can stay in the grey area.

 

[emaayan]

750w is equal to 1 hp.

Where I live there are no laws on the books yet specifically about ebikes, but they do have legislation for motorized bikes with engines and they must not go faster than 30mph under power. I find it generally reasonable and hope they ignore ebikes for some time to come and that I can stay in the grey area.

so how do you go about to register your e-bike?

 

[ecycler]

The law says you do not register the bicycle if it does not exceed 30mph. Anything beyond that level of power is then treated as a low speed vehicle, scooter, or motorcycle depending on various aspects and desires of the registrant and whoever they are dealing with at the Department of Motor Vehicles and Clerk for title and registration papers. Registering a bicycle makes no sense with our current laws, you would need to obtain a title to register which requires a manufacturers statement of origin which introduces other problems. In my state you are not even required to hold insurance as a private boat owner/operator, so I can't see them requiring it for bicycles any time soon.

 

[emaayan]

The law says you do not register the bicycle if it does not exceed 30mph. Anything beyond that level of power is then treated as a low speed vehicle, scooter, or motorcycle depending on various aspects and desires of the registrant and whoever they are dealing with at the Department of Motor Vehicles and Clerk for title and registration papers. Registering a bicycle makes no sense with our current laws, you would need to obtain a title to register which requires a manufacturers statement of origin which introduces other problems. In my state you are not even required to hold insurance as a private boat owner/operator, so I can't see them requiring it for bicycles any time soon.

so they only go for speed ? an ebike with 30mph or less is considered a bicycle? my system is 2000w and reaches only 30mph, what state do you live? can i go there?

have you heard of other states where they do allow to register ebikes?

 

[amberwolf]

but i don't know what is BRAKE horse power (as opposed to just horse power) , or how to convert cc (as some entries are listed as 50 cc)

if it's listed in cc, it doesn't apply to ebikes; that's for gas motors.

AFAIK the same is true for BHP.

 

[emaayan]

but i don't know what is BRAKE horse power (as opposed to just horse power) , or how to convert cc (as some entries are listed as 50 cc)

if it's listed in cc, it doesn't apply to ebikes; that's for gas motors.

AFAIK the same is true for BHP.

but it's under electric bycicle laws? for example Idahoin that table is says it's Motorized Electric Bicycle

 

[amberwolf]

because most states lump them all together in the bicycle definitions. If you go read the actual law, you'll probably find they are separate, or that electric has no limit called out (like here in AZ, where only the gas ones are called out, no electric limitations are, other "operated" under 20MPH.

cc doesn't equate to watts or HP in a straightforward way as it depeends on engine design and type (cant' remmber but I think you'd get different results with 4-stroke 50cc vs 2-stroke 50cc, for instance). So cc can't apply to ebikes that way.

I suppose someone could get stupid and say that since it says a motor can't be more than 50cc (or wahtever) then they could do a displacement/volume check of your motor (water submersion/displacement check, easy to do) and say that it's bigger than that so it's illegal....I'm not sure but I can't think of any hubmotor that's smaller than 50cc of volume. Some RC motors are, but if they count the reductions required to use them, then almost every ebike would be illegal regardless of actula power level. :lol:


But the cc is not meant to cover total volume of the motor, but rather the size of the bore of the cylinder volume that holds the gas vapor during ignition. Since electric motors don't have that, it can't apply to them.

teh BHP part I don't really know for sure. You'd have to look that up separately to see what it is about...but whenever I have run across it it is in direct reference to a gas engine vehicle, adn I have not seen it in reference to an electric one, so....maybe it dosn't apply either. Don't hold me to that.

 

[chas58]

that's true, i know of no instances where 250 watts pedalecs are required for licensing ? do you?
i just read an article how cops pulled out the air from a 17 year old who rode on the sidewalks. how will it be handled there?

i'm trying to look for simple uses cases of registration and licensing of other types. getting rid of the notion that anything higher then 250 watts isn't considered safe.

for example if i have a mid-drive with a 2000 watt kit, are there any instances of it being legislated? i see that most u.s laws are stopping at 500-1000 watts
according this this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws there are cases higher then that, but i don't know what is BRAKE horse power (as opposed to just horse power) , or how to convert cc (as some entries are listed as 50 cc)

how would you register your e-bikes?

This page gives a good summary for Germany. It is in german, but I suppose you could use google translate.
http://www.haibike.de/microsites/xduro2/faq/faq_s_pedelecs.html
(In germany, it is illegal for adults to ride a bike on a sidewalk).

Brake horse power is basically the same as horse power (its more in how it measured).


the biggest problem is that there are no roads/paths designed for vehicles in the 20-30mph range. That is too slow for roads and too fast for paths.

 

[opperpanter]

In the Netherlands it's legal if below 250Watt and PAS stops at 25km/h. Throttle only allowed till 6km/h.

Anything else is considered moped.

There's an in between class. This is still 250Watt limit, but is allowed to go up to 45km/h. This requires registration. The bikes are certified by the factory, so no need to go through legislation.

 

[emaayan]

In the Netherlands it's legal if below 250Watt and PAS stops at 25km/h. Throttle only allowed till 6km/h.

Anything else is considered moped.

There's an in between class. This is still 250Watt limit, but is allowed to go up to 45km/h. This requires registration. The bikes are certified by the factory, so no need to go through legislation.

what about diy bikes?

 

[d8veh]

In the whole of the EU and Australia (now I believe), all bikes that comply with EN15194 (max 25 km/h and 250w motor) are considered bicycles, so are exempt from registration, helmets, insurance, etc.. In Germany and coming in other EU countries are other classes of electric bicycles (more power or speed) that do require registration, etc.

 

[opperpanter]

In the Netherlands it's legal if below 250Watt and PAS stops at 25km/h. Throttle only allowed till 6km/h.

Anything else is considered moped.

There's an in between class. This is still 250Watt limit, but is allowed to go up to 45km/h. This requires registration. The bikes are certified by the factory, so no need to go through legislation.

what about diy bikes?

You have to get them checked / approved. Costs about 100euros.

 

[emaayan]

In the Netherlands it's legal if below 250Watt and PAS stops at 25km/h. Throttle only allowed till 6km/h.

Anything else is considered moped.

There's an in between class. This is still 250Watt limit, but is allowed to go up to 45km/h. This requires registration. The bikes are certified by the factory, so no need to go through legislation.

what about diy bikes?

You have to get them checked / approved. Costs about 100euros.

that's the process for that?

 

[Malloot]

In the Netherlands it's legal if below 250Watt and PAS stops at 25km/h. Throttle only allowed till 6km/h.

Anything else is considered moped.

There's an in between class. This is still 250Watt limit, but is allowed to go up to 45km/h. This requires registration. The bikes are certified by the factory, so no need to go through legislation.

Hey fellow Dutchy

I sell Ebikes (and high speed ones) for a living in The Netherlands and this is partially correct, the limit on the 45kmh class is 500 watts and they have only just began registration on the high speed bikes. The problem is though that how can a cop see the difference, first he has to see that it is a Ebike. Then he has to see that it is a high speed one, which from the outside is very hard. So officially they have to have a license plate, but if you do not put it on your bike, who is going to stop you? Also in a court case in case you make a accident, prove that i had the motor on, and prove that i cannot bike 45kmh myself...

however the ebike and especially the high speed variants are very good for getting to work, it is a official statistic that the average distance for a car commute to work is 22km here in Holland. This is just about a perfect distance for a high speed ebike, you can do it in about 40minutes and have had a nice workout in the morning. This gets people out of there cars and into the world.

I really believe that sub 60kmh bikes and lightweight electric vehicles can make a big difference in emissions and happiness all over the world. and should not get pushed down by the car lobbies and oil world.