Architectonic
10 kW
bandaro said:
It is no where near that high. It is about 3ish % in Canberra, 2ish % in Melbourne and <2% elsewhere.
Aussie 200 Watt Limit Thread
- Thread starter all74
- Start date
It is no where near that high. It is about 3ish % in Canberra, 2ish % in Melbourne and <2% elsewhere.
bandaro
10 kW
This report claims 11% of morning commuters from 7-10am into the centre are bicycles (page 8 ), but only makes reference to the total use having more than doubles from '06 levels.
I could have a squiz at proper journal articles when I'm at uni next and have the full access, but otherwise happy to disagree
I would believe that Canberra figure though, it's dreadful, but Sydney is worse. They have reportedly the worst mindset towards us of all the cites in Australia.
I could have a squiz at proper journal articles when I'm at uni next and have the full access, but otherwise happy to disagree
I would believe that Canberra figure though, it's dreadful, but Sydney is worse. They have reportedly the worst mindset towards us of all the cites in Australia.
Hyena
10 GW
As it's coming into winter again now I'm dusting off my high vis vest for my dusk commute. Yeah you look kinda dorky but it's better than getting squashed.
As for drivers with bad attitudes, I had another idea recently which I'm going to try.
We all know people act differently when there's cameras around. Many cyclists have them now but even if you don't I reckon you can probably influence a drivers behaviour with a bluff.
Thoughts ?
As for drivers with bad attitudes, I had another idea recently which I'm going to try.
We all know people act differently when there's cameras around. Many cyclists have them now but even if you don't I reckon you can probably influence a drivers behaviour with a bluff.
Thoughts ?
winkinatcha
10 kW
Hyena Wrote:
Where the problem lies is that pedal assistance stops at 25km/hr. If they raised it to a more reasonable 40km/hr which is a speed most bicycle gearing will let you meaningfully pedal along with, you'd find alot more people would start to take ebikes seriously and at this level they start to be a viable transport alternative.
----
This particular point and specifically the "viable Transport alternative" thang is where I would really like to find a way to apply political pressure... As those of us who cycle/e-bike know, 25km/h limitations is actually making an e-bike LESS capable than a fit cyclist on a good bike. Methinks the approvers/creators of the current AUS e-bike restrictions are NOT cyclists, or they would know that 25km/h is indeed a restriction, not a promotion.
However, all that being said, 75% of the bikes I build for customers fall within the legal power/speed restrictions as per Aus rules. And those customers that I build the legal e-bikes for, are both rapt with their vehicles and happy with what the e-bike can do for them in terms of increasing their range, reducing their sweat and bringing a positive experience to their daily commutes/recreational mobility.
Even at what I beleive is a less than stellar output.
AND I am still gob-smacked by one pro bike couriers reaction after jumping on one of my racer legal builds "It's so fast"
... Jeebers dude... you do twice thast speed many times a day on your pedal only machine... WTF?
I've started doing the Tour de #uck You (ref https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgCqz3l33kU) of a morning into town and back to see what local infrastructure and cyclists are like (On a 500w, 12s DD drive 40km/h top speed, no pedelec but peddling Purty much in the same places a pedal-only would) and I am still passing the majority of cycle commuters...
Upshot of the last few points?
40km/h (what I reckon is the ideal top speed limit for cycling infrastructure) MAX speed through a 15 Amp surge controller (c/A Consumption max 650 w) with significant rider input (I have permanent leg injuries but push myself to lung burn and def not "sweat free") puts me in a speed/power bracket equivalent to the top percentile of commuters. To me, getting close to ideal e-bikie-ness.
25 km/h is slow enough to hold up other cycle commuters in rush hour, but is "OK" where cycling infrastructure is available (the TDF pprev mentioned is 14 km of which just 1.5 km is cycle lane on road, the rest dedicated/shared cycleway).
Until the law-makers actually EXPERIENCE REGULAR e-bike riding... their decisions are based on theory not practice.
We are not Europe
Joe
Where the problem lies is that pedal assistance stops at 25km/hr. If they raised it to a more reasonable 40km/hr which is a speed most bicycle gearing will let you meaningfully pedal along with, you'd find alot more people would start to take ebikes seriously and at this level they start to be a viable transport alternative.
----
This particular point and specifically the "viable Transport alternative" thang is where I would really like to find a way to apply political pressure... As those of us who cycle/e-bike know, 25km/h limitations is actually making an e-bike LESS capable than a fit cyclist on a good bike. Methinks the approvers/creators of the current AUS e-bike restrictions are NOT cyclists, or they would know that 25km/h is indeed a restriction, not a promotion.
However, all that being said, 75% of the bikes I build for customers fall within the legal power/speed restrictions as per Aus rules. And those customers that I build the legal e-bikes for, are both rapt with their vehicles and happy with what the e-bike can do for them in terms of increasing their range, reducing their sweat and bringing a positive experience to their daily commutes/recreational mobility.
Even at what I beleive is a less than stellar output.
AND I am still gob-smacked by one pro bike couriers reaction after jumping on one of my racer legal builds "It's so fast"
... Jeebers dude... you do twice thast speed many times a day on your pedal only machine... WTF?
I've started doing the Tour de #uck You (ref https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgCqz3l33kU) of a morning into town and back to see what local infrastructure and cyclists are like (On a 500w, 12s DD drive 40km/h top speed, no pedelec but peddling Purty much in the same places a pedal-only would) and I am still passing the majority of cycle commuters...
Upshot of the last few points?
40km/h (what I reckon is the ideal top speed limit for cycling infrastructure) MAX speed through a 15 Amp surge controller (c/A Consumption max 650 w) with significant rider input (I have permanent leg injuries but push myself to lung burn and def not "sweat free"
) puts me in a speed/power bracket equivalent to the top percentile of commuters. To me, getting close to ideal e-bikie-ness.25 km/h is slow enough to hold up other cycle commuters in rush hour, but is "OK" where cycling infrastructure is available (the TDF pprev mentioned is 14 km of which just 1.5 km is cycle lane on road, the rest dedicated/shared cycleway).
Until the law-makers actually EXPERIENCE REGULAR e-bike riding... their decisions are based on theory not practice.
We are not Europe
Joe
winkinatcha
10 kW
Hyena... Like your Idea... Have toyed with similar, along the lines of Camera on board, Little Brother Is Watching You.
Here in Melbs there has been some recent media attention regarding cameras on bikes with at least one publicly aired pedal only video showing a dooring incident, so MR Public In A Car Commuter is gaining awareness that their stuff ups could land em in trouble... conciousness regarding BEING CAUGHT on Camera breaking road rules to the detriment of cyclists is on the rise.
Joe
Here in Melbs there has been some recent media attention regarding cameras on bikes with at least one publicly aired pedal only video showing a dooring incident, so MR Public In A Car Commuter is gaining awareness that their stuff ups could land em in trouble... conciousness regarding BEING CAUGHT on Camera breaking road rules to the detriment of cyclists is on the rise.
Joe
John Bozi
100 kW
just mount the camera to your head like a teletubby - people can see it there from far away as it stands out.
agreed, what i don't get is why the throttle speed needs to be limited to 6km/h for 250 w bikes, but it's ok to go 25km/h with pedalling. I think the throttle makes it easier to control the motor power than PAS. I hope some politicians are reading this forum!
Dark Knight
100 W
Many of the comments within this thread are intelligent, insightful and loaded with common sense and offer good possible suggestions and/or alternatives. Unfortunately the chances of getting any changes to occur to the current legislation are probably so close to zero as to not count. As has been indicated above, motorists in general don't like cyclists - unfortunate but true. Generally (but not always) cyclists don't like ebikers - again unfortunate but true ('it's just not real/proper cycling'). Bearing in mind that a politicians primary aim in life is to get elected (if you actually think it's to represent the people... 
) and motorists outnumber cyclists that outnumber ebikers and all of them are 'against' us...what chance do you think there is of any change getting through...? We are such a small minority as to almost not count and the pollies/bureaucrats know that to do any 'favours' for us would likely piss off many more other constituents (voters).
The hypocrisy of this is the encouragement towards greener living, application of carbon taxes etc. yet the penalisation of a viable alternative form of transport - yep, welcome to the modern bureaucratic nanny states of the western world with conflicting legislations and laws. The beatings shall continue until morale improves!
I'd say our best bet is to continue to fly under the radar wherever possible - don't act like a toe rag in public places and fingers crossed the plod continues to turn a blind eye to the more robust machines some of us use. Hopefully the deros keep whacking 2 stroke lawn mower engines onto clapped out old bikes and this continues to be the popular menace and we are just slightly frowned upon.
I do think we are at the cusp of ebikes becoming mainstream popular...particularly with the ageing demographic. For all the joy I get from seeing some of the awesome machines made on ES (both in looks and power) one of the greatest benefit of the ebike revolution is that I think it will genuinely encourage some of the more seniour people amongst us to re-engage with cycling. A crook knee and dicky back are never as crook or dicky after a spin on an ebike. It should also make a cycling commute to work a much greater potential alternative.
Whether this will be a good or bad thing for the hot rod ebikes remains to be seen...
) and motorists outnumber cyclists that outnumber ebikers and all of them are 'against' us...what chance do you think there is of any change getting through...? We are such a small minority as to almost not count and the pollies/bureaucrats know that to do any 'favours' for us would likely piss off many more other constituents (voters).The hypocrisy of this is the encouragement towards greener living, application of carbon taxes etc. yet the penalisation of a viable alternative form of transport - yep, welcome to the modern bureaucratic nanny states of the western world with conflicting legislations and laws. The beatings shall continue until morale improves!
I'd say our best bet is to continue to fly under the radar wherever possible - don't act like a toe rag in public places and fingers crossed the plod continues to turn a blind eye to the more robust machines some of us use. Hopefully the deros keep whacking 2 stroke lawn mower engines onto clapped out old bikes and this continues to be the popular menace and we are just slightly frowned upon.
I do think we are at the cusp of ebikes becoming mainstream popular...particularly with the ageing demographic. For all the joy I get from seeing some of the awesome machines made on ES (both in looks and power) one of the greatest benefit of the ebike revolution is that I think it will genuinely encourage some of the more seniour people amongst us to re-engage with cycling. A crook knee and dicky back are never as crook or dicky after a spin on an ebike. It should also make a cycling commute to work a much greater potential alternative.
Whether this will be a good or bad thing for the hot rod ebikes remains to be seen...
pendragon8000
100 kW
I contacted my greens political friend. She suggested change.org . I was thinking that already. Maby she could help forward the results to the appropriate minister(s)
"Viable transport alternative"
Is a well said point.
I was checking the local laws for USA and its states. Some have very high power limits like 1kw and 30mph others and majority are 1hp or 750watt or down to 500watt and 20mph and age limit in the low teens.
I think the 32kph and 500watt would be a nice step forward and a reasonable proportional increase min. Age 13 or 14.
No rego or license. Maby professionaly built only so kids don't put kits on bikes with 1 working rim brake or something.
Any thoughts?
"Viable transport alternative"
Is a well said point.
I was checking the local laws for USA and its states. Some have very high power limits like 1kw and 30mph others and majority are 1hp or 750watt or down to 500watt and 20mph and age limit in the low teens.
I think the 32kph and 500watt would be a nice step forward and a reasonable proportional increase min. Age 13 or 14.
No rego or license. Maby professionaly built only so kids don't put kits on bikes with 1 working rim brake or something.
Any thoughts?
Samd
10 MW
Hyena said:
You know, all jokes aside, a giant cock and balls on the back would make people both notice and avoid.
t3sla
10 kW
I wouldn't bother asking for legislative change.
They misspelled pedelec when they wrote the law, they refer to it as 'pedalec' in the legislative literature.
I guess the 'a' is for Australian
Pro tip: be a total punt and point out how everyone importing bikes has a spelling mistake on their accreditation logos
They misspelled pedelec when they wrote the law, they refer to it as 'pedalec' in the legislative literature.
I guess the 'a' is for Australian
Pro tip: be a total punt and point out how everyone importing bikes has a spelling mistake on their accreditation logos
Hyena
10 GW
The problem with first timers getting on an ebike is that ANY ebike (no offense to Frankencycle! lol) feels like they're riding a wave of technology from the future. "a bicycle that I don't have to pedal - what mystical unicorn like magical powers have you harnessed ?!" :lol:winkinatcha said:
Likewise I've had people jump on my relatively low powered bikes running ~1500w and are blown away saying they're so much better than any other electric bikes they've ridden. I've had 2 people now not even make it 200m to the end of my street before they turn around and come back and say "yep this is awesome, I'll take it". It's all about perspective.
You know, for all the cock and balls jokes I make, and all our other inuendo laced exchanges both public and private, this still made me laugh my arse off.Samd said:You know, all jokes aside, a giant cock and balls on the back would make people both notice and avoid.
Ped'lec, Straya!t3sla said:They misspelled pedelec when they wrote the law, they refer to it as 'pedalec' in the legislative literature.
I guess the 'a' is for Australian
I reckon you might have more luck by doing away with the battle of trying to change what is and instead create something new. As I've said before I reckon pushing for a high powered class of semi-registerable ebike is the way to go. Ie along the lines of S-pedelec. The govt can get still get a kick back out of it and I'd happily pay some sort of rego. I already have a motorbike license so that's no biggy, and I reckon anyone who's serious about riding an ebike on the road would benefit from the sort of basic training that comes with applying for a bike license. Alot of ebikers come from a moto background anyway so obviously they're sorted, but the sort of people that suddenly decide they're going to ride a bike to work at 40+ km/hr instead of driving could actually get into strife if they haven't thrown their leg over and sort of 2 wheeled transport since they were 10.
Dark Knight
100 W
Hyena said:
Now that makes some sense - strive for something completely new 'legislatively'...but I still think we'll have little chance on getting anything over the line, regardless of how sensible it is. Also, I suspect this would assist manufacturers (just like the s-pedelec laws in Europe) but do little for the DIYers (cost effectively anyways)...as there would likely still be some compliance with ADRs (Australian Design Rules) required...
When I made overtures about this to the relevant bureaucrats in West Oz, they pointed out (I guess appropriately) that they already allow registration of motored bicycles under the sub 50cc/greater than 50cc categories. The fact that to prove you are abiding by the ADRs will likely cost an arm and a leg...not to mention that there is little consideration for Evs in the ADRs (for 2 wheeled vehicles) as they currently stand. Even trying to get ebikes registered as an offroad vehicle to legally use the offroad trails (5 in WA...I think we are the only state to have them...?) is proving difficult was we have no VIN etc.
Still...we are unquestionably on the path to an EV future and some serious rethinking of current legislations and regulations is required so I guess there is hope.
pendragon8000
100 kW
electric moped class would be nice. but the "kick back" is insignificant compared to the income tax ppl pay and from what i know rego $ is nothing in comparison to the income tax used to make and maintain roads. but yeah it would be totally awsome.
I'm looking foward to pressing some politicians to represent our views in this "democracy"
one day fossil fuel WILL run out and before that the green issue will be so epic that legislation will change.
do you guys not take me seriously because im a piss head joker? that would be fair. but in this case I will follow through with a petition so if you want some input as to what its for please say so. yeah it may get F.A. signs but ill put it out there and it will be a steping stone.
I'm looking foward to pressing some politicians to represent our views in this "democracy"
one day fossil fuel WILL run out and before that the green issue will be so epic that legislation will change.
do you guys not take me seriously because im a piss head joker? that would be fair. but in this case I will follow through with a petition so if you want some input as to what its for please say so. yeah it may get F.A. signs but ill put it out there and it will be a steping stone.
Hyena
10 GW
This is why you'll never make it in politics, you're too honest. :lol: :lol: :lol:pendragon8000 said:
Maybe post up your petition here first for everyone to throw in their 2c worth of input/suggestions/fine tuning
pendragon8000
100 kW
ha yeah I honestly like beer.Hyena said:
ok ill put something together over the next few days and put it up here.
Dark Knight
100 W
pendragon8000 said:
Not at all champ - we are the country that voted in Robert James Lee Hawke as PM after all...at least partially based on his world record beer drinking capabilities! I'd have said that being a piss head joker is 'put up on a pedestal' behaviour - at least I hope so as last time I checked, piss head was the most appropriate pigeon hole to file me away in.
I'll definitely sign any petition that seeks to inject some much needed common sense into all of our bike/ebike/car etc. regulations...however the sceptic in me just suspects that sweet FA will come of it - at least in the short term. Bureaucrats and pollies appear to have a pathological avoidance of common sense...libertarian rant (temporarily) over...
ridethelightning
1 MW
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subscribe
winkinatcha
10 kW
Pendragon, Dude... You are articulate, vociferous, and a damn good bike builder, and hence you have my respect... you being a part-time piss-head joker is an added bonus, not a handicap
I personally am a serious fan of a sub-class of license, partic if it comes with similar pre-license training as per MotorBike license as Hyena suggested.
Age limit thing I also like, I remember (vaguely through a haze of guiness and whiskey) during my three year stint in Ireland, that 16 Year old kids could get a scooter type license and there were some pretty sweet scooters that seemed to be around the 100cc (suspect around 2hp or so == 1500w)/50km/h that the lads used to ride around on.
Pro built versus DIY I am not sure of... From my perspective one of the joys and attractions of e-bikes, no matter what the wattage, is that for a significant portion of riders, being able to build their own legitimate form of transport is bloody empowering and a goal within itself, and I would LURV to get as significan a group of hotrodders/ricers/home garage tinkerers as there are in the ICE community. Personal views only and I do understand where PDs rat-bike concerns come from....
I've said it on ES before n I've read it on ES before, even if there was a Permit type system, that cost 3 figure dollars per year (IE less than $1000) that required ebike rego, I'd be happy to fork out the dollars (well not happy but I'd do it in a flash if it enabled me to legally ride an e-bike that matches the speed of the fittest non-pro lycras out there)
Italicised that last bit, 'cos I reckon a petition or push would benefit with a phrase or "slogan" or something that encapsulated, in politically correct terms, the reason(s) a higher-powered/higher speed-than-current-AUS-laws-allow e-bike is a POSITIVE to the community....
Finding that hard to articulate... suggestion...?
- Enabling legal e-bikes to define a new transport niche that surpasses the functionality of a pedal-only bicycle
- harnessing the possibilities of pedal and power transport to bring more viable alternatives to fossil fuel vehicles
aaaargh... just can't quite encapsulate what I is trying to say... but trying to "Paint" the higher powered alternative we want to current laws as a no-brainer..."why the heck aren't we (insert nationalistic self description here (eg Australia the Smart Country), embracing and leading the way of community and lifestyle enhancing, EFFECTIVE transport, harnessing the current technologies to bring viable and economic green oriented personal transport solutions to Aus and the world
Sort of thing...
Help me out here
Joe
Edit: Cleaned up some of the more obvious spelling n grammer slips
I personally am a serious fan of a sub-class of license, partic if it comes with similar pre-license training as per MotorBike license as Hyena suggested.
Age limit thing I also like, I remember (vaguely through a haze of guiness and whiskey) during my three year stint in Ireland, that 16 Year old kids could get a scooter type license and there were some pretty sweet scooters that seemed to be around the 100cc (suspect around 2hp or so == 1500w)/50km/h that the lads used to ride around on.
Pro built versus DIY I am not sure of... From my perspective one of the joys and attractions of e-bikes, no matter what the wattage, is that for a significant portion of riders, being able to build their own legitimate form of transport is bloody empowering and a goal within itself, and I would LURV to get as significan a group of hotrodders/ricers/home garage tinkerers as there are in the ICE community. Personal views only and I do understand where PDs rat-bike concerns come from....
I've said it on ES before n I've read it on ES before, even if there was a Permit type system, that cost 3 figure dollars per year (IE less than $1000) that required ebike rego, I'd be happy to fork out the dollars (well not happy but I'd do it in a flash if it enabled me to legally ride an e-bike that matches the speed of the fittest non-pro lycras out there)
Italicised that last bit, 'cos I reckon a petition or push would benefit with a phrase or "slogan" or something that encapsulated, in politically correct terms, the reason(s) a higher-powered/higher speed-than-current-AUS-laws-allow e-bike is a POSITIVE to the community....
Finding that hard to articulate... suggestion...?
- Enabling legal e-bikes to define a new transport niche that surpasses the functionality of a pedal-only bicycle
- harnessing the possibilities of pedal and power transport to bring more viable alternatives to fossil fuel vehicles
aaaargh... just can't quite encapsulate what I is trying to say... but trying to "Paint" the higher powered alternative we want to current laws as a no-brainer..."why the heck aren't we (insert nationalistic self description here (eg Australia the Smart Country), embracing and leading the way of community and lifestyle enhancing, EFFECTIVE transport, harnessing the current technologies to bring viable and economic green oriented personal transport solutions to Aus and the world
Sort of thing...
Help me out here
Joe
Edit: Cleaned up some of the more obvious spelling n grammer slips
John Bozi
100 kW
MIght be a dumb question, but are we pushing for federal or state laws? Would it be easier to go state first?
I have only approached my Brisbane City council in emails about providing areas in the city to charge our bikes. They took me very seriously, however the biggest point I can't agree with them on is having to be present during charging in an underground carpark. And I felt not one local ebiker I met would support me in the process.
It would be interesting to even see if there is antagonism between the current 200W users and us pushing for higher limits.
I have only approached my Brisbane City council in emails about providing areas in the city to charge our bikes. They took me very seriously, however the biggest point I can't agree with them on is having to be present during charging in an underground carpark. And I felt not one local ebiker I met would support me in the process.
It would be interesting to even see if there is antagonism between the current 200W users and us pushing for higher limits.
ridethelightning
1 MW
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there is antagonism, that im aware of, but it dissolves when the old fogies take a testride on a hotrod -"oh wow!that was amazing!".......
at my local council(i have family in there) the staff were testing 200W ebikes, they were very excited, but annoyed/dissapointed that the bikes diddnt go faster. iv heard similar stories elsewhere.
it helps to get politicians and people with power to change the laws onto hi-powered bikes to er...corrupt them
at my local council(i have family in there) the staff were testing 200W ebikes, they were very excited, but annoyed/dissapointed that the bikes diddnt go faster. iv heard similar stories elsewhere.
it helps to get politicians and people with power to change the laws onto hi-powered bikes to er...corrupt them
PRW
100 kW
I suppose a couple of bottles of wine here or there wouldn't be amiss...
ridethelightning
1 MW
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+ :lol:
pendragon8000
100 kW
Here's a good start. Quoted from face book. If I can get him onside it might have more significance.
ridethelightning
1 MW
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PRW said:I suppose a couple of bottles of wine here or there wouldn't be amiss...
getting them tipsy first before getting them on a 10kw bike could be interesting too....
ebikes are truly the answer to traffic congestion.
there is no excuse for people not being fit enough anymore, blah blah.
i just wonder if there arnt some dark forces in the shadows putting pressure in the right places to keep them out of the picture.....keeping the wattage limit low,
keeping the infrastructure crap, digging in the heels.