Aussie 200 Watt Limit Thread

Pollies don't really care half the time. A few years ago, I discovered an out-of spec red light (3.8 seconds instead of the Aus roads mandated 4.0 seconds) every other red light I observed was spot on 4.0 seconds (using high frame rate camera). Yes it had a red light camera attached, yes it was on a downsloping grade and yes, it was also on a curve too.

Pollies didn't care, but at least I solved the mystery why every single local slams on their brake just before the intersection.
 
Architectonic said:
Pollies don't really care half the time. A few years ago, I discovered an out-of spec red light (3.8 seconds instead of the Aus roads mandated 4.0 seconds) ever other red light I observed was spot on 4.0 seconds (using high frame rate camera). Yes it had a red light camera attached, yes it was on a downsloping grade and yes, it was also on a curve too.

Pollies didn't care, but at least I solved the mystery why ever single local slams on their brake just before the intersection.
Click to expand...


That's a cultural problem in the way we approach things.....she'll be right


250W EN cerified bikes are great for maintain a standard of quality, thus cutting out most of the poorly made dog shit.

But it's not what suits Australia best, kinda using a hammer to put in a screw.

I think sPedelec is most likely the answer, USA just have a power limit and don't factor in any quality or standards which I'm pretty sure you'd want have.
 
Nice points there joe, and yea, well written. you can tell you've been at this style a while...

I'd be advocating for a 1kw peak input power limit. much easier to police, doesn't require the (relatively ) expensive/hard to calibrate hardware for testing (like dino's), is more accurate, and provides a sensible, but more useful limit for Australia somewhere around 6-700w output. A motoring speed limit of say 40km/h, and the requirement of flashing lights night and day for better visibility would also be good things to include. I'd also go for the requirement of having at least a valid drivers licence - stops lil' kids getting on them who might lack the experience/road smarts and also stops them being exploited as an alternative transport for DUI drivers and the like. It might be helpful to point out not just the commuting distance of australians vs the EU (though if I recall, the difference is not huge) but also the weather. putting in 100w of your own effort when its 20C out is a different story to putting in 100w when its 35+C with a blistering hot sun. And the sun really is hot here - ive worked for <10hrs in the southern canadian sun during summer and barely gotten pink... 45min in the australian sun in the middle of a summer day and I'll be getting properly sunburnt.



winkinatcha said:
Personally I'd like a wattage of around 500 nominal (as you Suggest Pendragon, 500-750 watt), I can build an e-bike with that kinda power that'll do 40 km/h on the flat, and personally, that's around where I reckon the top speed for bicycle infrastructure (shared pathways/cyclewyas should be...)

from my perspective, the adoption of European standards for a country the size and sprawl of Australia is disingeneous. I personally beleive an approach to push for laws as per American style (750w) is more appropriate both for our culture and our infrastructure.

I beleive that a central and significant point to be raised is that the current limitations via the European standard actually make a compliant AUS e-bike LESS functional than a fit cyclist on quality pedal-only road-bike.

I beleive that the limitations applied are a disincentive for a functional vehicle, placing the compliant e-bike into the category of leisure/recreation rather than enabling a viable alternative (particularly for commuters travelling further than 10km) to more environmental and infrastructure damaging, less economical and dangerous vehicles such as cars.

I would like to somehow raise the point of polling existing cycle (non-ebike) commuters as to whether they would accept a 25km/h speed limit on the cycleways as an emphasis on how limiting such restrictions are (note: although a well built e-bike can still be pedalled at higher speeds above where the motor gives assistance, the rider is taxed at greater speeds due to the extra weight of the electric drive train)

========

Points for the petition

Current AUS e-bike laws are European-based and do not reflect the culture nor infrastructure of Australia

Speed and power restrictions (250w/25km/hr) functionally restrict an e-bike to less than pedal-only

The potential for alternative transportation innovations through human/electric vehicles (such as cargo bikes and trikes) is discouraged through lack of meaningful power

very little if any consultation with the existing e-bike user base. (though I do understand that at least one e-bike IMPORTER was on teh consulting panel

Apparent lack of e-bike AND cycling experience with the decision makers (note: e-bike/cycling experience means "consistent use of a cycle or e-bike as a means of tansportation or recreation" IE to be "experienced" a person MUST have a history of riding a bicycle at least once a week with many thousands of km under their wheels, and to have a true understanding of e-bikes at least 1000 km of e-bike riding)

(important in my opinion as I seriously have had a professional bicycle courier ride a legal powered and top speed e-bike up and down the laneway outside my workshop and claim it was "fast"... when I KNOW they reach 40+km/h on their day to day rounds... IE a zip down an alleyway or an exhibition ride does not give one enough experience to make a decision about power levels or speed)

===================

Working title....

Petition to review the current power and top speed restrictions of Australian e-bike laws through the adoption of the en1594 Standard

Current studies both here in Australia and overseas suggest that a greater use of bicycles has massive benefit to inner city congestion, public health and infrastructure costs and maintenance.

Promotion of cycling as an alternative method for daily transportation has gained little traction with less than 5% of daily commutes being undertaken by cyclists in Australia's major cities.

The purpose of this petition... is to present and promote a strong review of the current e-bike laws to assist in promoting cycling through alternative methods and gain the traction Australia needs to become a leader in alternative personal transport use, innovation and development.

(I/we/the petition signatories) strongly beleive that greater promotion and less restriction on e-bike functionality will have a significant effect on bicycle and human power/electric hybrid personal vehicle use.

reason 1

Reason 2

Reason 3

(oops just realised it's past midnight, and I have a conversion to finish and two first services on Frankencycle e-bikes to be done by 11am tomorrow, before I then ride 30 km to consult/quote an electric cargo bike conversion at 1:30 pm , so best get some ZZZZZs)

Hope that's helpful Pendragon

joe
Click to expand...
 
reason 1= should be money so the liberal ears perk.

Bike riders save economy $21 on each commute

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/national/bike-riders-save-economy-21-on-each-commute-20130730-2qxdg.html#ixzz313zi7hZ6

A bit unrelated in the papers recently:

There have been many cyclists killed on the roads and now they are considering liscencing cyclists.... http://www.smh.com.au/executive-style/fitness/blogs/on-your-bike/duncan-gays-call-to-license-cyclists-is-not-the-answer-to-road-safety-issues-20140502-37mda.html
 
If we need a liscence, maybe we will need a rego?

Makes me wonder, has anyone in Australia made an ebike road legal? HOw much would it cost?

Dlogic is my inspiration for this

fok48y.jpg
 
John Bozi said:
If we need a liscence, maybe we will need a rego?
Click to expand...

If you have to rego bikes, or license riders,..it will kill the cycling culture and totally screw the inadequate transport infrastructure around Aussie cities. Stupid idea that could only be contemplated in Australia.
But , yes i know , Australia is dumb enough to actually do it
 
If we need a license and rego, why the hell should we keep it a pushbike? Just say screw it and get a full motorbike, for the same costs... People like Motopeds and Stealth will get green slips, and the electric assisted bicycle is no more.

As for registered electric, I think Hyena was doing something along the lines, with his madass.
 
bandaro said:
If we need a license and rego, why the hell should we keep it a pushbike? Just say screw it and get a full motorbike, for the same costs... People like Motopeds and Stealth will get green slips, and the electric assisted bicycle is no more.

As for registered electric, I think Hyena was doing something along the lines, with his madass.
Click to expand...

Some people - women especially, won't risk riding on the roads. Keeping it a "pushbike with electric assist" will allow them to ride on bike paths and shared paths, and to some degree, foot paths.
 
winkinatcha said:
Speed and power restrictions (250w/25km/hr) functionally restrict an e-bike to less than pedal-only
Click to expand...

people fail to understand the European power limit on pedelecs. My 48V BionX system consumes up to 1300W from the battery and is perfectly legal in Europe. The 250W limit is the continous power limit. There is no limit on peak power.

There is also no speed limit. You still can pedal as fast as you like to do, the motor stops assisting at 25km/h (+ x). I often ride faster than 25km/h, in such sitaution it's my own power (using your legs to pedal will keep you your muscles to drive that 30km/h+, that many people claim to do so frequently but which I rarely see on the streets.)

In Germany there are also s-pedelecs with motor assist up to 45km/h. You need insurence and a license plate for those and you can not built your own one, but they look and ride like (heavy) bicycles.
 
Hey Ceph!

I am one of those people that doesn't understand the difference between continuous power and peak power...

If you could give an interpretation of "continuous Power" that would be ace... I am totes confused by it.

I recently rode a BH Neo Jumper, also totally legal in Europe... awesome ride... torque sensor detected full weight on pedals on take off and I could certainly feel that the motor was putting out more like a KW than 250w...



the BH range, the bosch mid drive and perhaps the Bionix system (I don't really know enough about it) all seem to me to be the result of trying to find ways AROUND a 250w power restriction...

IE the bike produces 1kw+ under certain circumstances, which supposedly are not continuous...

What happens if you went up a perpetual slope, say 30 degress, on the BH Neo? with full weight up on and turning the pedals, theoretically the Jumper would be pumping out 1kw+ for as long as the slope continues...



Either way... I am of the firm opinion that the higher tech EU compliant e-bikes are basically trying to find ways to get more power out to the rider than a 250w system can give... which makes me think... why have a 250w continuous restriction at all?

Seems to me that the interpretation of continuous is basically... 1kw OK up to 24.9 km/h.. hit 25km/h... drop to 250w..

re the 30km/h... on the major cycleways into and out of Melbourne CBD, during commutor rush hour, a significant portion of cyclists do above 30km/h and you can see them banking up behind "slower" riders every working day, waiting or trying to pass...

Non commute times, unless one is hanging out in the areas the Lycras mob, sure there might be more 25 and less km/h riders... but personally I am not one of them and my cycling buddies are not either :D

In terms of justifying my view that an electric bike is restricted to be less than a pedal-only... my view comes down to once top speed of motor is reached, further speed requires the rider to move the inherent weight of the electric drivetrain as well as that of a normal bicycle... IE so long as the rider is less than 25km/h... advantage... once rider is above 25km/h... disadvantage....

As an anecdotal aside... the reason I got to rid the BH Neo is that the owner wanted me to assess whether we could get the top speed of motor push more around 30km/h as the guy was finding that he was slower on his NEO over a 30km each way commute, than on pedal only... sure, maybe a bit less knackered... but 25km/h was not cutting it in terms of versus pedal-only speed.

Joe
 
...to state a limit of continuous power output, a number of assumptions must be made.

The bike and rider are a standard weight.
The path of travel is flat.
Wind resistance is a standard - no headwind, no tailwind, good aerodynamics with low rolling resistance.

The measurement of continuous power must be made whilst at cruising speed... taking into account the assumptions.

Speed restrictions would be far more sensible.
 
winkinatcha said:
I recently rode a BH Neo Jumper, also totally legal in Europe... awesome ride... torque sensor detected full weight on pedals on take off and I could certainly feel that the motor was putting out more like a KW than 250w...


As an anecdotal aside... the reason I got to rid the BH Neo is that the owner wanted me to assess whether we could get the top speed of motor push more around 30km/h as the guy was finding that he was slower on his NEO over a 30km each way commute, than on pedal only... sure, maybe a bit less knackered... but 25km/h was not cutting it in terms of versus pedal-only speed.

Joe
Click to expand...
Joe, you should try the BH on 48v - even more awesome!
 
Heya Willow, howya doin'?

Does "cruising speed" equate to "top speed"?

although not what I think is ideal, it could be kinda cool to have a 1200w machine, that cuts down to 250 watt at 24km/h... personally in my opinion far from ideal but certainly less restrictive than what I woulda thought.

joe
 
...Ciao Wink'n. Prego prego.

crusing speed - would be constant speed (limit it to 40 or whatever)... this could be half speed or top speed, don't matter.... just not at acceleration or deceleration, and taking into account all assumptions. At top speed, cruising, no wind... things are pretty efficient. even a 5KW bike might only be pulling 200W to maintain momentum.

My cruiser will sit on 40km/h at full throttle... Yet I can do 50km/h downhill without assistance.

Given the natural power curve of an electric drive system, limiting power is simply not practical.... speed limiting is achievable and practical.

what production electric pushbike (besides a stealth) actually has a readout to say what your wattage consumption is? None that I have seen, and certainly none that actually meters the power at the motor... so you simply don't know.

Craig Farrel MLC - Leader of the Government in the Legislative Council, rode my cruiser (peaks at about 2.2KW). He was so impressed that he said to me... "What can we do to change the laws (in Tasmania) so that we can all ride one of these". Speed limit, not power limit - was my answer.

Get your local Polly on a bike, and change the way they think.
 
This argument, that "you can always pedal faster than 25 km/h without assistance", is just unlogical argument. It"s against the simple human logic. It requires unhuman amount of self-dicipline to follow. It requires an individual, who does not use his own brains, but is a government puppet 100%. People are not like that, they need a certain amount of freedom, freedom to judge the situation by themselves and do what they think is right.
1. Who pedals faster than 25 km/h with 40kg bike? Not average person, longer than a minute or so. 10kg bicycle even with full touring gear weighs only around 20-25kg. 35-40kg is insanely heavy bicycle to propel forward with pedals only, but this is what some turn-key pedelecs and E-bikes weigh.
2. If somebody wants to p e d a l faster than 25 km/h, why would he use an E-bike? No, he uses a normal bicycle.
3. On many countries gas mopeds are allowed to use same MUT"s, and gas mopeds can go 59 km/h legally! (In Finland at least) And they weigh like 60-80kg!
This 25 km/h law is so out there, that what happens is what is happening with cannabis example. Folks will just not care do you, or do you not.
Western countries are getting poorer all the time, police forces are getting smaller and smaller. Nobody will care what kinda bike you ride, and people notice this.
People just do not think that overpowered E-bike would be a serious crime, more and more think it"s no crime at all.
When we are getting poorer, we are entering in a society where everybody has to use their own judgement, within a reason.
One can pedal 35 km/h quite easily. No human mind thinks that reaching the same speed with a motor would be wrong. It"s just unlogical.
Main problem is shared paths. Bike paths should be part of the road, separated from pedestrians, like in Sweden on many cases.
Pedestrians and bikes do not go well together, with motor or without motor, it"s cars and bikes who should mix.
 
hey Willow! Like the idea of get a Polly on a bike...

What sort of function/event were you at when you did this?

Joe

Edit * for the purpose of trying to be at/start/organise/have pipe-dreams about a similar event here on the mainland....
 
Eskimo said:
This argument, that "you can always pedal faster than 25 km/h without assistance", is just unlogical argument. It"s against the simple human logic. It requires unhuman amount of self-dicipline to follow. It requires an individual, who does not use his own brains, but is a government puppet 100%. People are not like that, they need a certain amount of freedom, freedom to judge the situation by themselves and do what they think is right.
1. Who pedals faster than 25 km/h with 40kg bike? Not average person, longer than a minute or so. 10kg bicycle even with full touring gear weighs only around 20-25kg. 35-40kg is insanely heavy bicycle to propel forward with pedals only, but this is what some turn-key pedelecs and E-bikes weigh.
2. If somebody wants to p e d a l faster than 25 km/h, why would he use an E-bike? No, he uses a normal bicycle.
3. On many countries gas mopeds are allowed to use same MUT"s, and gas mopeds can go 59 km/h legally! (In Finland at least) And they weigh like 60-80kg!
This 25 km/h law is so out there, that what happens is what is happening with cannabis example. Folks will just not care do you, or do you not.
Western countries are getting poorer all the time, police forces are getting smaller and smaller. Nobody will care what kinda bike you ride, and people notice this.
People just do not think that overpowered E-bike would be a serious crime, more and more think it"s no crime at all.
When we are getting poorer, we are entering in a society where everybody has to use their own judgement, within a reason.
One can pedal 35 km/h quite easily. No human mind thinks that reaching the same speed with a motor would be wrong. It"s just unlogical.
Main problem is shared paths. Bike paths should be part of the road, separated from pedestrians, like in Sweden on many cases.
Pedestrians and bikes do not go well together, with motor or without motor, it"s cars and bikes who should mix.
Click to expand...


hopefully we'll eventually be such an impoverished society that we can pay the equivalent of 20Baht to the traffic cops as a bribe to ignore overpowered bikes
like they do in thailand :D
 
winkinatcha said:
Hey Ceph!

I am one of those people that doesn't understand the difference between continuous power and peak power...

If you could give an interpretation of "continuous Power" that would be ace... I am totes confused by it.
Click to expand...

Quite complicated and not really defined, so in reality the 250W power limit does not exist in Europe.

Directive 2002/24/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 18 March 2002 relating to the type-approval of two or three-wheel motor vehicles and repealing Council Directive 92/61/EEC (Text with EEA relevance):

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32002L0024:EN:HTML
 
It would be good to have our regulations changed but im a little concerned about other things, Someone earlier Suggested we increase our speed limit to 40km/h which would be great most of the times but i think when it comes to riding your ebike on a shared Path with Cyclists and pedestrians your going to scare the crap out of alot of ppl.

When im riding along the lake normaly i get abused for riding to fast or Pedestrians refuse to move over and walk 4 wide pushing you off the path, I think if we had our laws changed we should keep the 25km/h limit on shared paths and only on the road or specific bike onle paths we should be aloud to increase our maximine speed.

Imagine your mother or grandmother going for a nice walk around the lake and not being as agile as someone younger they could stumble into you and so on. We need to be realistic about this and consider other aswell.

Dont get me wrong, im in the process of building my 1st ebike that will hit over 65km/h but i dont wish to hurt anyone either.

Consider the elderly and young kids on our paths under the age of 7, they have no understanding of safety and its upto us adults to keep them safe.
 
I do like the suggestion a few pages back of pushing for an entirely different classification.


For me, any new or adjusted regulation needs to do away with power output having anything to do with it. Regulating power output is not enforceable in any practical sense. If we propose something different, it should not just be a different number of watts.


Bicycles are only different from motor cycles because:


A. historical norms.

B. the amount of potential for damage to person or property in the case of an accident (including the rider)... ie momentum = mass x velocity


I would propose any regulation should be around these things:


* weight limit (not including rider or luggage. yes they come into it, but not really able to regulate this well) what is reasonable for a generic bicycle given it was not engineered for this purpose in the first place. How about 35KG max? This should put it within the strength / handling / braking capabilities.


* top speed. 35 or 40km/h max and  20 or 25km/h anytime you are within 10 meters of pedestrians.


* maybe put a SPL dB limit on it to figure those un-muffled 2 strokes into the same picture.


If you want to go a bit further, perhaps stopping distance test requirements at some particular speed. Maybe this is one factor that could be part of a low friction registration process if you want to go that path.


Adjust the numbers if you like but a model like that would be 100% reasonable and enforceable and completely unambiguous.

Dean
 
G'day peeps :D

Would it not be sensible to limit top speed assisted to 25 (or 30 ish kmh) and have no limit of power? That way, people who live where there are long, steep hills (with strong head winds) can get up them relatively easy and at the same time, not exceed the speed that motorists expect pushbike riders to be travelling at.

Just a thought ...
 
i have always thought that speed limits (not power limits) were the way to go.

i would think 25kmh while on a shared path, and 40kmh elsewhere.
then things become very simple for enforcement, and allows sensible power to be used in our bikes.

35kg limit wouldn't do for me. my trike weighs more than that. not much more, but it does.
it's well under 40kg though. without the batteries, it might just scrape in under 35kg though ...

and i would also support a new classification, similar to the German S-pedelec system.
with registration and licensing required for those classes. i already have both car and motor cycle licenses,
so as long as the new registration wasn't over the top in terms of cost, i don't see a problem.

Jason.
 
Diamondback said:
i have always thought that speed limits (not power limits) were the way to go.

i would think 25kmh while on a shared path, and 40kmh elsewhere.
then things become very simple for enforcement, and allows sensible power to be used in our bikes.

35kg limit wouldn't do for me. my trike weighs more than that. not much more, but it does.
it's well under 40kg though. without the batteries, it might just scrape in under 35kg though ...

and i would also support a new classification, similar to the German S-pedelec system.
with registration and licensing required for those classes. i already have both car and motor cycle licenses,
so as long as the new registration wasn't over the top in terms of cost, i don't see a problem.

Jason.
Click to expand...


Totally agree with you Jason when it comes to your points but one of them. Having a Power Limit is ridiculous, when riding into a 40km/h headwind and although we dont have massive mountains in Australia like the rest of the world we still have a lot or short steep hills that need the extra power to get you up even at 25 km/h.

I would not like Licensing at all or registration, if i had to do that ide just go buy a motorcycle and go get my licence again and buy another bike like ive just sold. The Least i can give our goverment the better in my eyes. They just take take and take and ive had enough of it.

I would pay a one off fee of like $50 a year if it gave me the same rights on the road as a car but as the goverment eplains to us, the reason rego is so expensive is for the upkeep of the roads and i dont think these vehicles cause any problems in that way.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top