Big Dummy + Cyclone 720: any advice?

[hillbilly]

After reading countless threads and considering countless options I've finally taken the plunge and ordered the main components for my next bike, a "hillclimbing eMule" from a Surly Big Dummy longtail and a Cyclone 750 watt/36v, 3 chainwheel.

I'll use the battery from my present bike (Ping V2.5 36v 15ah) but I'm hoping that other cargo bike owners and Cyclone users will help me avoid mistakes with suggestions on ways to improve this build. As I've said before, I'm not an experienced cyclist or a skilled tinkerer, so every bit of advice is most welcome.

I'm very grateful to Mark and his "My Yuba Mundo Build" blog for alerting me to a great price on the Big Dummy. As well as many others here on ES, "Deardancer3" has been especially helpful with Cyclone advice.

thanks!

 

[amberwolf]

Do you have a sketch of how it will be set up?

 

[rkosiorek]

1. the Cyclone 750W is the same motor as the 500W except that it uses 36V and an external controller. with heavy loads it will get quite warm. i recommend adding the optional cooling fins. find a better way of attaching them though. i drilled small blind holes in the case and used miniature self tapping screws. #2-3/8" long socket head.

2. replace the stock DICTA brand freewheel with a heavier duty one. the White ENO Southpaw is the best. inbetween there is the ACS CLAWS or the ACS FAT.

3. the mount for the motor likely will not grip the frame well. it doesn't on any other bike, so why would the Mundo be an exception. by the time you finish with the tightening and the set screws you will have damaged the paint anyways. so why not drill a couple of holes and use a few M6 Rivnuts for a more solid mounting.these are the same size as the ones used for water bottles and stuff. a couple of screw sunk solidly into the frame will go a long way to improving the reliability f the unit.

4. make sure that your battery can supply the 50 or 60A peaks that this motor will pull without tripping the BMS. real pain to have to stop and unplug the pack to reset the BMS if this happens often. i'm guessing with a heavy bike hauling heavy loads - it will.

rick

 

[hillbilly]

Amberwolf... no, I don't know how it will be set up. In fact, I'm basically starting from "zero" on this as I have never seen a Cyclone kit in person, or a Big Dummy. When I asked for any-and-all advice, I wasn't kidding!

My main goal on this project is to climb long upgrades (3000' over 4 miles), if that tells you anything about how the bike should be configured. Paco at Cyclone_tw.com suggested the 3 chainwheel kit to take advantage of the bike's 18 gears.

I'm digging through past ES threads on Cyclone installs for information that might apply to my own build but without previous experience with non-hub systems a lot of this really doesn't make sense to me.

This will be a "trial-and-terror" project!

thanks!

 

[hillbilly]

Rick... yes!!! That is exactly the sort of help I need. I don't know what a freewheel is but I will certainly follow your advice and get the Eno. I'm not sure if the frame is stronger than a Mundo's but considering what this Big Dummy costs, it ought to withstand a lot! (The complete bike with the Xtracycle kit normally goes for $2450. I went for the sale on JensonUSA, almost $600 less.)

"make sure that your battery can supply the 50 or 60A peaks that this motor will pull without tripping the BMS. real pain to have to stop and unplug the pack to reset the BMS if this happens often. i'm guessing with a heavy bike hauling heavy loads - it will."

I'm hoping to use the battery from my current bike -- a Ping V2.5 36v 15ah. Does anyone know if this battery can supply the type of load Rick describes?

thanks!

Carl

 

[spinningmagnets]

The Cyclone is a great configuration, as it allows the motor to use the bikes gears. This helps battery range, motor/controller heat, and top-speed per watt. The downsides (as I've read) have been that some people find the gear and chain noise annoying compared to a fairly quiet direct-drive hub. Also some components in the kit don't last long, and many eventually upgrade to better parts (like the ENO).

Adding the motor body cooling fins right away will be a big help. Once running, remember during your longest-steepest ride to stop on occasion and put your hand on the motor. It should be very warm, but not so hot that you can't keep your hand on it. If it is that hot, take it easy to avoid frying the motor/controller (lower gear, use half throttle, or more pedalling) and consider a cheap contact temp probe with a settable warning light/buzzer.

If the fins are "almost" enough to climb the entire hill without hitting the hot zone, you can then wrap a shroud around the outside of the fins to enclose them and then add a small ducted electric fan you can turn on when needed, but I doubt that will be neccessary. Best of luck...

 

[graemebc]

Get a cycle analyst from methods if he still has any standalones for sale. I get 15 to 20 km (not miles) out my 36 / 10amp on my 720watt kit so far. I am going almost flat out all the time though and still not sure where the motors sweet spot is. The speed is addictive!

I have found that peddling just a little harder than the motor is pulling is a very easy ride though. Its not the quietest but its not annoyingly loud. You will probably have to shim the motor to the left a bit to get it in line with the front crank motor chain wheel. I used a flat 3mm wide bit of alloy. Every build I have read about then so far has the same issue as mine with the left crank lock nut sticking out a bit. I think you just have to live with that Some good lube in there when you change it out is a good idea. Change that front free-wheel as previously advised as soon as you can, the kit one really is terrible. The fins helped my motor temp allot. I have been advised to try for a 60 tooth front crank chain ring to change the peddle cadence to better match the motors sweet spot at 3250 rpm. I have one ordered, will let you know how that helps after I have mine fitted

 

[gerlewis]

graeme,

what speed is 'flat out' for you? assuming you have calibrated your speedo?

I get 40-42kph out of my 500w cyclone, calibrated. I wish I could get 50kph.

Ger

 

[kentlim26]

graeme,

what speed is 'flat out' for you? assuming you have calibrated your speedo?

I get 40-42kph out of my 500w cyclone, calibrated. I wish I could get 50kph.

Ger

as for the 500watts cyclone kit is best used for long range distance travel. to get easily for 50kph is the 900watts kit, 36v controller. i find speeding at 50km/h ~ 55km/h is very good. Above then that, it make me worry. the 900watts kits with a 48v 20hr ,(lifepo4)has a very excellent troque, i feel like is 2times more (troque pull). With my legs add on power for pick up, i had always stunned drivers. I am Very much faster then them (4 wheels vehicles) in 200meters on road. Safer too on road. if there is nothing require me to speed up, i will stay my speed 35km/h (consider fast and fun too, with my ear phone on music!!, very nice feeling) 500watts still can speed up2 50km/h. it needs a 36v, sla batteries. if is faster then 50km/h the motor controller is Not safe.

kentlim26

 

[pdf]

"make sure that your battery can supply the 50 or 60A peaks that this motor will pull without tripping the BMS. real pain to have to stop and unplug the pack to reset the BMS if this happens often. i'm guessing with a heavy bike hauling heavy loads - it will."

I'm hoping to use the battery from my current bike -- a Ping V2.5 36v 15ah. Does anyone know if this battery can supply the type of load Rick describes?

thanks!

Carl

Carl, Just bought and installed Xtracycle/Stokemonkey. The advantage of a system through the cranks is that you can draw about whatever current you want (but not at whatever speed you want!). That is, you can go slow and draw low current or go faster and draw more current. Your battery is a 15 ah and Rick cites 60 amps, so that would require at least a 4C rating (desired maximum current is 4 times the amp-hour rating). Don't know what your battery is rated for, but you can google it and find it easy enough. Note that pulling current near the maximum current rating will shorten battery life. I have a LiFePO4 polymer battery pack that is also 36V and 15 ah and I think it is rated around 3C. I keep the current below 15 amps with a Cycle Analyst so it is always below 1C but I am shooting for long life. On my ride, the objective of going with an ebike is to make the ride moderately faster (30 minutes versus 50 min) but much much easier going up hills. I can go up a pretty steep hill drawing less than 15 amps barely pedaling at all if I am not in a big hurry. Your desire is to go up a moderate but long grade so I assume you want to go up faster than my 6 mph. You can use one of several "bike calculators" on the web to determine how much power is required to climb a certain grade at a certain speed. Then you can calculate the current required, assuming an efficiency. Beauty of working through the cranks is that the efficiency is high due to the ability to turn the motor fast but the wheels slow. This will give you an idea of what kind of battery you need. If you are going to climb this everyday, you want to keep the motor below its continuous power rating and the battery well below its maximum current rating. You can calculate all this beforehand. Note that if you put batteries in parallel, you add their amp-hrs so you will require half the current from each battery if you have two. If you need a high maximum current, you need a high amp-hour pack, a high C rating, or parallel battery packs. Although unless you are in one heck of a hurry and have a massive grade, you will probably be fine with yours. I climb a hill that is around 7-10% grade at 15 mph everyday and I don't ever get above 15 amp and I never even breathe harder than normal. At 15 amps, that is at the continuous rating of the motor and at 1C, the battery should be fine also.

In principle, the main difference between my setup and yours is that the motor you are using is a high speed motor with I presume planetary gears while mine is a low speed motor and no internal gears. So I assume my conclusions above are applicable. I found that using the bike calculators was pretty helpful in determining the amount of current I would expect to draw at different grades and speeds.

 

[graemebc]

I have seen 55kph out mine on the flat with two gps loggers to verify. I really want a 48 volt 20 ah battery now though. I think that will be the ideal mix of power/distance to battery weight.
You really can take off very quickly with these things. I have surprised a few cars . I know I could get better distance out my current battery but I like going flat out, peddling hard and running about 3/4 throttle. The test cyclone USA did on their 500 watt kit with a 24/24 battery was really impressive. 40 mile range is nothing short of amazing to me at a constant 16mph, as mentioned I get about 15 to 20km! As soon as my cycle analyst arrives though I'm going to start testing for range to see what I can get.

 

[hillbilly]

Just to clarify about my goals for this bike: I would be quite happy to climb the local mountain roads at 10kph as I am most interested in enjoying the scenery, wildlife watching, photography, etc. This bike is my substitute for hiking -- I had a very bad horse wreck several years ago and can no longer hike long distances.

My second goal is to prolong the life of the battery and motor, so the idea of using two batteries in parallel is intriguing, especially if I could just mate a second battery to my present Ping. That would save me a lot of money and hopefully give me both the power and the range I need.

I have a question about the suggestion to get a "stand alone" Cycle Analyst from Methods. I'm not at all familiar with the CA as I presently use an EagleTree data logger. Is there some additional advantage to the CA from Methods? I assume that the CA is needed in order to limit the amp draw from the battery?

These suggestions are very helpful -- please keep 'em coming!

Carl