Breaking UK/US Motor Wattage limit.

[lotrwiz]

SWIM (Someone who is me) very much like to get a more powerful motor than the weedy little 250w front brushless hub I have now, but sadly that's illegal here in the UK, if you want it to be classed as a non-moped.

I don't really care about that, the area where I am, there are rarely shops, let alone police, and I wouldn't ride in such a way that I'd drawattention to myself, apart from like I was a professional cyclist on a funky bicycle.

Has anyone got any stories about 'Too powerful' Ebikes, not matter the country...have you ever been caught, would you do it? Would it be worth the potential legal penalties?

And I were to get one, do you think that the UK customs would have a problem with it being such a high power rated motor?

Thanks in advance.

Edit: This wasn't meant to sound cocky or anything like that, It's simply a statement of how I feel, I hope my fellow forum members understand that.

 

[dogman dan]

In the USA, most places you get away with anything provided you meet two criteria.

1, you didn't crash and need the cops to call an ambulance.

2, you aren't wildly exceeding the speed limit. Even bicycles going 40 mph may be ignored, and for sure 30 mph rarely raises eyebrows.

3, you aren't riding like a complete ass, like blasting at high speed up the wrong side of the road, blowing stop lights, or doing 40 mph in a parking lot, crowded park, campus, etc.

In the UK, it might be very different. But outside cities, I believe a lot of folks have no difficulty riding 1000-1500w power bikes that go 30 mph.

 

[marcexec]

Not that I'm in the boat myself but I researched that for relatives in Germany:
classed as a moped the insurance is ~50€ if you're 23 or older.
Not really woth the risk. Another 40 gets you fire & theft protection...

 

[MadRhino]

Here I've been riding what could be called "illegal light weight motorcycles" for years without any problem, with 30 times the legal power and 3 times the legal top speed. Build the bike stealth, ride clever, pedal at all times, you can get away with any power you want.

 

[Eskimo]

Here nobody, except some old lycra farts, give a damn really. Most people, or police, don"t even know how DD E-bike looks like. Plenty of cops have stared my bike from close range, i doubt none of them knew what the hell it was, and cared even less. Our cops are usually very liberal in this kind of issues, kind of "old cowboy mentality" still lives. You won"t make any trouble and we won"t give a damn what you ride or carry. It"s not what you do/ride, it"s how you do/ride. A store where i bought my kit sells these openly with pictures, they accepted a picture of my bike on their open gallery too. In England there seems to be more zero-tolerance-mentality. Buy your kit from home then you don"t even need to worry about custom bills. Just test rode mine with new throttle today. Oh boy, it felt as great as the first ride, after one months break. It just flies, compared to pedaling only. For me 1000W is pretty ideal power, don"t need much more. It gives a light motorcycle-feel for short moments, that speed-buzz, but still makes you want to pedal too all the time, pedaling still matters a bit, gives more power.
Only occasion that i can think of where i would be in trouble is if i crash badly, injuring someone. Then my bike would be looked closer i think. Better ride decently to avoid that.
It"s kinda hard to feel like a bad boy when illegally tuned gas-mopeds whiz by and overtake you on MUT"s and paths occasionally. You don"t feel like you are the one going fast.

 

[lotrwiz]

Well you all seem to have a pretty similar mentality to me here. I most definitely wouldn't be riding like an ass, but my current hub motor give me what, 24.9 mph no load speed TOPS, and realistically around 20 when I'm riding, and I'd absolutely love to be able to go 30 steadily. I'd be upgrading to a 48v much bigger battery pack too if I did get a more powerful kit.

I'd like to know more about the customs side of things, I know some sellers on ebay will ship them, but I really despise customs fees.

 

[sythacus]

Just this morning I passed a cop on my 2400 watt Cyclone around 25mph and he didn't even bat an eye. I'm guessing ebikes are so rare here they don't know the laws on them. Going into this I really expected to get pulled over at some point, but so far I haven't had any problems.

The bigger issues for me are cars that aren't expecting a bicycle to be moving so fast, so they pull out on you or nearly sideswipe you.

 

[lotrwiz]

Do you think going from 36v 250w to 48v 1000w or 800w would be a large enough leap to silence the voice in my head begging for more speed?

 

[d8veh]

I've never heard of anybody in the UK ever getting their bike checked. Neither can I find any record of anybody ever being prosecuted for an illegal normal electric bicycle. Most UK electric bikes, including yours, are illegal anyway because UK law says 200w max. We have a sort of written amnesty for 250w bikes from the DfT. I know some people that have very powerful bikes without ever getting hassle. If you want to get your own, my only advice is to be sensible: Pedal all the time; be respectful to pedestrians and other road users; make your bike as stealthy as possible; stick a 250w label on your motor in case somebody sees the power and grasses you up.

UK Customs don't restrict anything for electric bikes because there's no restrictions on what you buy.

There's two risks that I can think of if you were involved in an accident. If you hurt someone, the police could get involved, or if a driver knocked you off and spotted that you had an illegal electric bike, he could make you pay for the damage to his car even if it was his fault.

 

[cal3thousand]

Do you think going from 36v 250w to 48v 1000w or 800w would be a large enough leap to silence the voice in my head begging for more speed?

Whatever appeasement it brings shall only be temporary.

Having said that, taking the time to work your way up in speed has it's benefits. You get better at riding at the lower speeds and your ebike maintanence skills will grow accordingly. Now, if you are all ready to build a monster and ride it (meaning you have all the skills on both sides), go ahead and make the leap to a faster bike.

 

[lotrwiz]

I've never heard of anybody in the UK ever getting their bike checked. Neither can I find any record of anybody ever being prosecuted for an illegal normal electric bicycle. Most UK electric bikes, including yours, are illegal anyway because UK law says 200w max. We have a sort of written amnesty for 250w bikes from the DfT. I know some people that have very powerful bikes without ever getting hassle. If you want to get your own, my only advice is to be sensible: Pedal all the time; be respectful to pedestrians and other road users; make your bike as stealthy as possible; stick a 250w label on your motor in case somebody sees the power and grasses you up.

UK Customs don't restrict anything for electric bikes because there's no restrictions on what you buy.

There's two risks that I can think of if you were involved in an accident. If you hurt someone, the police could get involved, or if a driver knocked you off and spotted that you had an illegal electric bike, he could make you pay for the damage to his car even if it was his fault.

Fair points all of them, Of course I'd never ride like a moron anyway. that's a good point, I think non PAS is also illegal, isn't it?

 

[lotrwiz]

Do you think going from 36v 250w to 48v 1000w or 800w would be a large enough leap to silence the voice in my head begging for more speed?

Whatever appeasement it brings shall only be temporary.

Having said that, taking the time to work your way up in speed has it's benefits. You get better at riding at the lower speeds and your ebike maintanence skills will grow accordingly. Now, if you are all ready to build a monster and ride it (meaning you have all the skills on both sides), go ahead and make the leap to a faster bike.

Its more of the money aspect that I'm thinking about to be honest, I don't want to keep buying new motors/kits every year (apart from that shiny new feeling)

 

[LSBW]

LOL. On my first test ride in February, I did 54 km/h, thinking its insane. Now it's my average speed.
Cops here don't care, as long as it resembles bicycle and have pedals.
However, guys on chinese e-scooters, driving drunk, no helmets, etc. get busted all the time

 

[lotrwiz]

LOL. On my first test ride in February, I did 54 km/h, thinking its insane. Now it's my average speed.
Cops here don't care, as long as it resembles bicycle and have pedals.
However, guys on chinese e-scooters, driving drunk, no helmets, etc. get busted all the time

Do you have a link to your build I can check out? I had one of those, it was full of lead acid crap and was sluggish and pathetic.

 

[LSBW]

Do you have a link to your build I can check out? I had one of those, it was full of lead acid crap and was sluggish and pathetic.

Yeah, sure I do, v v v

 

[alsmith]

I'm in the UK, bike will run at about 28mph when on 36V (nominal- actually 39.6 fully charged) which is how I normally run the bike. A bit more (over 40) when I connect the batteries in series at 72V. I've never been bothered by any police, but don't go everywhere at full speed- just ride sensibly. They don't seem too interested in me, but I don't do anything to stand out.

 

[liveforphysics]

I don't believe in ever breaking the sensable motor wattage limit, however my motor wattage limit is to stop driving more current after stator saturation has occurred and efficiency has dropped below 50%. This is the point of ultimate peak power output for the motor, and driving another amp in only increases the heat output.

An ebike of any power level is inherently so much safer than a car for the world, anyone who converts to a powered bicycle of any power level is so radically less dangerous to the world than the cop driving his 5000lbs 6ft wide highspeed human controlled death-path. If it gets you riding a bicycle rather than driving a car, do you not believe this inherent reduction in danger to life and resource consumption and pollution and parking issue reduction is worth it?

IMHO, do what's right. That seldom means obeying laws.

 

[alsmith]

Don't forget there is a big difference between UK and US limits. The UK limit is 200W and 15mph if you follow the Euro part, 250W for an older but not repealed law. There are Euro plans to increase speed to a 20mph limit.
The USA limits are different, and afaik vary state to state. Perhaps our American friends can give a bit more detail, but I think it may be 1000W in some states?

 

[ridethelightning]

even if you pedal and behave like a bycycle at bycycle speeds most of the time, its so nice just to know youv got the herbs there when you want em'.

3kw is so nice to have stashed in there....

 

[dogman dan]

Much of the USA has a 20 mph/ 750w law in place. Some have a moped class allowed more, with a bunch of bullshit paperwork attached to do that.

Some places it's flat out illegal to ebike. New York still that way I think, and Hawaii too I think. But people ride anyway with no problems if they don't have a cop that already hates them for good reasons.

On the subject of upgrading. One cheap motor will get you through a lot of the progression. The typical larger size direct drive motors tolerate 1500-2000w well enough, and pushing them closer to the limits LFP mentioned still allows shorter rides with 3000w. Typically, a 72v 40 amps controller just barely gets these motors into the 40 mph club.

The motor I mean is sometimes branded 9 continent, muxus, conhis, etc. The cheaper made versions are on ebay all the time in "1000 w kits" They have a 28 mm magnet in them, and are about dinner plate size in diameter.

The problem with upping power is mostly battery cost and or complexity. If you are headed to 72v 40 amps, then you should learn about RC lipo (lico, lithium cobalt). This battery can easily burn your house down, but it's got the power to run high amps controllers.

With the stock controllers, a 48v kit will often get very close to or actually go 30 mph. 1000w is enough to maintain 30 mph on a bike. More than 48v is needed to go 35-40 mph.

You can get into the 40 mph club for $1000-1500 in the US. Not sure how much more the customs dings you where you are.

Once you have a faster 1000w bike, you don't have to ride 30 mph all the time. You can double your range by slowing to 15 mph, and ride sensibly in places where slower makes sense.

 

[sal_park]

And I were to get one, do you think that the UK customs would have a problem with it being such a high power rated motor?

I'm in the UK too (London) and would echo pretty much what d8veh said. I used to have a 250w front motor and have moved to a 500w bangfang (both 36v). I've never had any bother and almost everyone I've asked (90%+) don't even recognise it as an electric bike at all. My personal compromise between what I want and the law is a 500w motor but I've kept the 16mph speed limit in place.


sp

 

[GrindGarage]

on subject..... I had a Chinese e-bike that looked more like a moped, full turn signals etc. Got pulled over by a cop for riding it on the sidewalk. He asked for docs. I explained to him it was a bike and showed him the US Fed doc with 20mph max etc. He was insistent I did not ride it. I told him he could impound it and give me a ride home, and I will go to court. He quickly left.

This left me thinking so I went home and in the lovely state of NJ a bike is a motor vehicle. The liability surrounding this scares me a little. I worry that if I plow down a pedestrian and somehow kill them it could be vehicular manslaughter. Or if I hit a car etc can be liable.

Anyone here ever get a moped policy for their e-bike? I would like to have some piece of mind in case the unexpected occurred.

 

[MadRhino]

IMHO, do what's right. That seldom means obeying laws.

Exactly my philosophy. People obeying laws are not always doing what is right, and those who are doing what is right are not always obeying laws.

 

[John in CR]

Lotrwiz,

You can probably push the little motor you have to 750-1000W without issue with only minor adjustments. Typically motors from the same manufacturer that they call 250W, 350W, 500W are a single identical motor.

Boosting the power of what you have will also help answer your question regarding how far you should go, however, since you ask it's likely that you won't be satisfied without at least several kw. I started with a 500W hubmotor, and soon boosted it to 2kw. Then I got bigger motors for my ebikes and stayed in the 5-10kw with a max speed of 60mph for several years. Now my bike has peak input of 26kw and a top speed of 100mph. I don't ride it that fast, but it's nice to have more than you need, and zooming at 70-80mph up hills on the highway passing all of the traffic is quite satisfying.

 

[fechter]

I agree that if you ride sensibly there is little chance of getting in trouble with the authorities.

Most cops don't carry a Fluke meter and don't know how to shoot one.

Just to be safe, be sure to get (or make) some of these stickers:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=35048
If the sticker on the motor says 200W, then it must really be 200W, right?