Clarification on BMC/PUMA

[leamcorp]

I read all threads on BMC/PUMA and I'm still not sure what is what. It looks like there are 3 different geared hub motor from same factory/company? These are Puma, BMC 400w, and BMC 600w (not including 1000w as I understood that its a direct drive).

My question is - what is Puma? I understand that outside is different, but is it BMC 400w or BMC 600w or something else altogether in terms of performance. If you have both, I would appreciate some clarification as that question seems to be skirted.

 

[Ypedal]

All those and the eZee motor as far as i can tell come from the " BMC " factory..

The difference comes with the copper coils, some are thicker, and wound for different RPM/Volt , the " Puma " was the name given to it by team Hybrid in the UK with their modifications .

Like Crystalyte motors are called " Brute " and " Pheonix " and " Road Runner " .. it's a marketing thing. :wink:

 

[leamcorp]

I understood that, what i'm trying to figure out is -is Puma equivalent to - 400w or 600w BMC?

 

[fechter]

The guts of the Puma look just like the 600w BMC. I'm not sure about the number of turns on the windings, but the parts look the same size.

 

[leamcorp]

Thanks for that info. I've had the BMC 400w and wanted to make sure Puma is bit more robust. I've asked both TeamHybrid and Knuckle for info - hopefully its a good news.

 

[voicecoils]

I'm pretty sure dirt dad addressed the 400w vs 600w issue. Not the Puma though if it's made with specs that teamhybrid wants.

I'll try to find his post about it

 

[voicecoils]

here it is: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7131&p=108537&hilit=+dirtdad+400w#p108822

The differences are improved materials and construction: composite gears, silver/teflon phase wires, bigger stronger magnets, tighter tolerances, etc. The casing has the same external dimensions. But much of the shell was simply made and unnecessarily thick. So it was thinned out in non-structural areas. The end result is a motor that is the same weight and size that delivers more power. The differences may not sound like they add up to much, but the proof is in the results, this little motor really flies.

Sure sounds good

 

[leamcorp]

I read that and it still doesn't clarify if puma is similar to bmc 400 or 600w version. I already have bafang and bmc400 hubs - I want to move up from those. Thanks

Edit - it sound like Puma is same as BMC 600w based on Fetchers comment but I just want to make sure.

 

[leamcorp]

Based on couple of discussions, I think I got this sorted out now.

It turns out Puma is not "equivalent" to new BMC 600w version. Rather its equivalent to BMC 400w with upgraded phase wire. I'm still not sure if this upgrade is up to the cover or to inside.

Caveat - I'm using 400w/600w label more as a designation, rather than an actual watt rating. Also, I still haven't heard anything from knuckle or teamhybrid, so they may have different information.

 

[recumbent]

Have you looked at http://www.e-ride.ca and the Korean geared motors?

They are made with steel gears and rated for higher amperage, especially if you pick the larger controler box with regen.

One of the folks on this forum did a recent review and liked it, noise level was 60db for the geared motor and 48db for gearless, I thought that was interesting information. Now all we have to do is find out how loud 60db is

 

[voicecoils]

Have you looked at http://www.e-ride.ca and the Korean geared motors?

They are made with steel gears and rated for higher amperage, especially if you pick the larger controler box with regen.

Yeah, the Korean motor is one to keep your eyes out for, it looks interesting to me. Perhaps a midpoint between the Bafang PMGR and the BMCs.

Regen? Have you got a link for that? That means it's a brushless geared non-freewheeling motor, which is fairly uncommon. Brett @ SolarBBQ did have one Chinese hubmotor built like that.

 

[recumbent]

Regen? Have you got a link for that? That means it's a brushless geared non-freewheeling motor.

It's only the 30amp controler that is stated "regen" not sure about the geared motor . However i'll hunt down the link to the exploded veiw pictures of the geared motor and we could prolly see for ourselves.

 

[recumbent]

here it is,

 

[recumbent]

more pictures for ya,

 

[voicecoils]

here it is,

It's possible that it's direct. On the Bafang the freewheel (or clutch or one way bearings, whatever the mechanism) is located on the piece that the 3 planetary gears are mounted to. It could be the same for this one, or it may not be.

Interesting.

 

[leamcorp]

The 1000w motor with 48v 40a controller looks interesting. I wonder if it will fit in 135mm or strictly for scooter.

Looks like my next hub will be 1000w BMC DD hub that hi-powercycle had it on Ebay. I was looking for very efficient hub and that seem to fit the bill (35mph @ 48v?). I'll post a review once built.

 

[docnjoj]

Try this site for DBA levels (decibels in the A range are the standard.)
http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/loudness.html
OtherDoc

 

[recumbent]

Nice chart there, OtherDoc, thanks.

So 60db noise level is similar to a quiet libary and a conversation 4 feet away.

What's scary was when the chart said snowmobiles and motor bikes are 100db, and ear damaging. Now I'm certain why i have 30% hearing loss.

OH and Leamcorp, your not going to go 35mph with a 48V set-up, the wind will hold you back.
Unless your talking freewheel speed off the ground test.

 

[leamcorp]

Nice chart there, OtherDoc, thanks.

So 60db noise level is similar to a quiet libary and a conversation 4 feet away.

What's scary was when the chart said snowmobiles and motor bikes are 100db, and ear damaging. Now I'm certain why i have 30% hearing loss.

OH and Leamcorp, your not going to go 35mph with a 48V set-up, the wind will hold you back.
Unless your talking freewheel speed off the ground test.

Yeah, I'm not sure about the speed either. This is what hi-powercycle told me - 37mph at 51v pack, GPS verified? What I'm more curious about is the freewheel function. Although its a direct drive, he said that it doesn't have much of a resistance. It will be interesting. I'm still going to get BMC600 or if available, that Korean 1000w geared motor in spring.

 

[lcyclist]

Hi,

I have the BMC 1000W direct drive motor as well as the BMC 600W geared motor, both running with e-crazyman 48V 30A controller, 12AH Ping 48V battery. I logged over 1300 miles on BMC 600W and now running the 1000W motor on my commuter bike (about 120 miles so far).

My experience so far (on the same bike, battery, controller, same 144 pound rider):

* Efficiency is about the same - on my 14 mile round trip commute, 600W motor, I use 16 wh/mile or less with an average speed of about 20 mph. On the 1000W motor, I regularly consume under 15 wh/mile at the same average speed flat ground, stop and go traffic. I normally cruise around 22 - 25 mph with pedaling, with short bursts of up to 30 mph on some parts of my route. Because of this, I am considering a smaller and lighter battery for my commute.

* Torque on the 600W motor with the same controller can lift the front wheel at start. It has a lot of torque. The 1000W motor has less torque at start...so I have to pedal to 10mph then start on the throttle, othewise the motor vibrates until 10 mph or so. Once at 10mph, the torque comes on and accelerates like the 600W motor and continue to pull until my top speed of 35 mph or so (I think it will go faster but too scared to try). The 600W motor accelerates faster than the 1000W but the 1000W motor has a faster top speed (33 vs 35 and above mph on this controller).

* Noise: the 600W motor has noise but normally can't hear in normal traffic. The 1000W motor can't be heard once I am above 10 mph. Low vibrating noise if I start from dead start but now I just pedal then throttle on. The noise mainly comes from tire noise.

* Pedaling resistance. I can't tell the difference between the two motors in terms of pedaling resistance. My bike is an Azonic steelhead jump/dirt MTB geared with 47 tooth chain ring up front and 7 speed cog at the rear (11-23). I built it to be pedaled. The 1000W motor weight about 2 lbs heavier than the 600W motor, but I really can't tell the difference on my daily riding.

Overall, I think I prefer the 1000W motor because of it's low noise, efficiency and potential for speed.

 

[leamcorp]

Hi,
Overall, I think I prefer the 1000W motor because of it's low noise, efficiency and potential for speed.

Thats awsome! I was hoping that was the case with efficiency.

I'll be running same setup - 48v 30amp infinion with 48v battery. I'll also try 60v and 72v to see what happens. Hi-powercycles told me 60v should be maximum but I have both infinion and crystalyte 72v controller.

I'll send you PM - would appreciate controller/motor connection. Thanks

 

[voicecoils]

Overall, I think I prefer the 1000W motor because of it's low noise, efficiency and potential for speed.

Great feedback, the other thing you gain from using the 1000W motor is the possibility of regen as well as electronic (plug) braking if desired.

The 600W freewheels so that's not an option.

 

[snowranger]

Hi,

I have the BMC 1000W direct drive motor as well as the BMC 600W geared motor, both running with e-crazyman 48V 30A controller, 12AH Ping 48V battery. I logged over 1300 miles on BMC 600W and now running the 1000W motor on my commuter bike (about 120 miles so far).

My experience so far (on the same bike, battery, controller, same 144 pound rider):

* Efficiency is about the same - on my 14 mile round trip commute, 600W motor, I use 16 wh/mile or less with an average speed of about 20 mph. On the 1000W motor, I regularly consume under 15 wh/mile at the same average speed flat ground, stop and go traffic. I normally cruise around 22 - 25 mph with pedaling, with short bursts of up to 30 mph on some parts of my route. Because of this, I am considering a smaller and lighter battery for my commute.

* Torque on the 600W motor with the same controller can lift the front wheel at start. It has a lot of torque. The 1000W motor has less torque at start...so I have to pedal to 10mph then start on the throttle, othewise the motor vibrates until 10 mph or so. Once at 10mph, the torque comes on and accelerates like the 600W motor and continue to pull until my top speed of 35 mph or so (I think it will go faster but too scared to try). The 600W motor accelerates faster than the 1000W but the 1000W motor has a faster top speed (33 vs 35 and above mph on this controller).

* Noise: the 600W motor has noise but normally can't hear in normal traffic. The 1000W motor can't be heard once I am above 10 mph. Low vibrating noise if I start from dead start but now I just pedal then throttle on. The noise mainly comes from tire noise.

* Pedaling resistance. I can't tell the difference between the two motors in terms of pedaling resistance. My bike is an Azonic steelhead jump/dirt MTB geared with 47 tooth chain ring up front and 7 speed cog at the rear (11-23). I built it to be pedaled. The 1000W motor weight about 2 lbs heavier than the 600W motor, but I really can't tell the difference on my daily riding.

Overall, I think I prefer the 1000W motor because of it's low noise, efficiency and potential for speed.

How hilly is your commute, and would it make a difference in your preference?

 

[recumbent]

I cannot find the BMC 1,000 watt gearless motor on the Hi-powercycles website :?

Perhaps i'm not looking in the right place?

I'd love to find a geared hub that tops-out at 34mph with 48 volt LIFEPO4.

 

[lcyclist]

Leamcorp,

This is my wiring for the 1000W and 600W motors to a Infineon controller:

Controller - > Motor (1000W/600W)
Phase
Blue -> blue
Yel -> Green
Green -> Yel

Halls
Red -> Red
Blk -> Blk
Green -> Yel
Blue -> Blue
Yel -> Green