Dakota Lithium 12v 10Ah to replace eZip SLA?

[markw]

Hi guys, battery noob here, but I've been reading your forum and studying up a bit and it's been a lot of fun. Thank you for all of your postings, DIY guides, pictures, and more.

Question a.) Been trying to find out my LiFePO4 solution for a while. Currently my eZip MTN 2008 runs on SLAs. Voltage sag big time. It would appear that these Dakota Lithiums have the same dimensions as the batteries inside the Currie SLA packs. If I could get them to work, I would have a 24v 10Ah battery for around 200 bucks! What sorts of issues would I have if I simply replaced the SLA packs with these Lithium ones? The SLA charger?

Question b.) I've been interested in running my eZip at a higher voltage. I want more torque and more speed! I'm aware of the gearing mods I could do for speed, but torque is important for me as my daily ride is hill intensive. From my understanding of some of DrkAngel's posts, with proper throttle control it's possible to run as high as 36v without overheating. Is there a way I could get these 12vs to operate at higher voltage? 14v max is what's recommended, and they cap at 15v max. 25.9v or maybe something a little higher? What determines the voltage going into the motor, the controller or the batteries?

Question c.) Simply going from 24v 10Ah SLA to a 24v 20Ah LiFePO4 will be very noticeable all on it's own, yes? I mean in terms of power and speed, not so much in terms of the longevity of the batteries.

Thanks so much for any input! If there is a way to get these cells to work it could mean an awesome upgrade with little work involved and significantly cheaper than many alternatives.

MarkW


Sources:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/12-Volt-10Ah-Dakota-Lithium-LiFePO4-Battery-Clean-Republic-CR1210-/380681167219?pt=US_Power_Tools_Batteries_Chargers&hash=item58a25da173

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Set-of-2-New-12V-10AH-Electric-Scooter-Battery-Schwinn-Mongoose-w-WARRANTY-/400437282784?pt=US_Rechargeable_Batteries&hash=item5d3bec07e0

 

[wesnewell]

Those batteries are nothing more than a 10ah 4s lifepo4 pack in a case. There's no bms. $112 each with shipping sounds pretty high to me. I'd need 7 of them to replace my $275 10ah 24s lipo pack. I think there are better options, but if you want to spend the cash, it should work ok.

 

[Paderolis]

I have a 2013 eZip Trailz that is using a 36v 30A Currie controller. I have been using two 18.5v LIPO batteries in series to power it, and it runs pretty strong! I found out recently that the controller will work with 48 volts too, but I am very careful not to give it full throttle too often and for too long! I admit I don't have a voltmeter hooked up while riding, but the batteries seem to last longer when I am using 48v vs. 36v!
My battery pack is only 4500mAH and my commute to work is only 4.5 each way, I can charge at work. I do pedal a lot too so I'm sure that helps retain some batt. life.

Here is the battery I am using: http://www.hobbypeople.net/index.php/hobby-people-18-5v-4500mah-5s-30c-lipo-battery.html
I add a 11.1v of the same specs and brand to get 48 volts (about 55 volts fresh off the charger).

 

[markw]

Those batteries are nothing more than a 10ah 4s lifepo4 pack in a case. There's no bms. $112 each with shipping sounds pretty high to me. I'd need 7 of them to replace my $275 10ah 24s lipo pack. I think there are better options, but if you want to spend the cash, it should work ok.

Can you explain to me why the number of series in a pack is relevant to the power? Does more series mean higher discharge rate meaning more torque and speed?

The same retailer sells a bulk pack, 3 batteries for 240. Probably 260 shipped. Each box is about 3 pounds, so 3 in series isnt too heavy to rule out of a build.

It looks OK except for the part where it lists max discharge rate at 2C continuous/6C for a 2-second burst. That means you'd need three of them in parallel to get any kind of decent current flowing through the motor, and a 48V 30Ah system comprised of these will run you $1200 right of the bat.

Im not sure why arod says that it would be 1200 for a 48v system, 4 boxes of these 12v 10ah each is more like 340 ish? Unless someone can explain what he means?

The no BMS is definitely a thing. Isnt it possible to install your own bms chip in a battery system?

If bms is installed with these and it was just two 12v 10Ah boxes in the stock case, the stock 24v SLA charger should work fine, right?

Lastly heres some specs on the 2 SLA packs that come stock inside the currie battery boxes: http://www.batterystuff.com/batteries/electronic-security/12-volt/ub12100-s.html

It is only a 450 watt brushed motor im trying to juice up!

Apologies for punctuation (ipad) and any misunderstandings i have here, still learning, and loving it. Lunch rush is upon me, ill check back in a couple hours! Thank you again!

 

[wesnewell]

Can you explain to me why the number of series in a pack is relevant to the power? Does more series mean higher discharge rate meaning more torque and speed?

Yes, both. With more in series, you get hugher voltage which gives you more speed, and better aceeleration since VA=W, which means you get more power also with higher voltages.

 

[Johnny Fever]

Good Morning markw:
I have had an eZip for a couple weeks, and really am enjoying how well it works right out of the box.
I run it every day, and I have taken it out 3 times in rides of 30+ miles- YES, you need to pedal the rig
a fair bit to get that length of a ride with the stock SLA's. and YES, it gets heavy as you run out of battery.
So of course, I am aggressively looking at battery solutions; Primary objective- EASE of replacement. I'm
not opposed to picking up the ole soldering iron, but even with experience working with electronics at the
component level- I WANT TO PLUG AND PLAY as much as I can.
I purchased a second Currie RMB (FINALLY found a supplier for the battery w/ spade style contacts) to slide
right into the other side of the rack. It's SOOO EZ squeezy with the stock setup But that makes for about 40 pounds
of battery. The Dakota Lithium solution looks ideal, as the dimensions and capacities match the BP10-12 that
Currie uses.
The solution also looks MIGHTY REASONABLE in terms of dollars, and NOT cheap ChineeCrap either.
I will research out the other components that may be needed to make this fly, and in the process, am
looking forward to the HUGE weight savings, along with all the other pluses, that await.
SO, I WILL answer the question you asked in your post as soon as I can, but please let me know if you
found anything out on your end.
You will be hearing from me both directly and in this forum.
CHEERS!!!

 

[Johnny Fever]

Hey markw.. .. .. Peep THIS.
It's $229.00 and I think it will fit easily inside that SUPER SECURE SWEET DESIGNED Currie dual battery drop-in and key locked-in battery casing with Left/Right battery switch.
Put one on each side to double your riding range-AND its one-quarter the weight! I'm looking into this one BIG TIME
The battery includes a PCM/BMS (protection circuit module / battery management system) which provides complete protection and balancing of the cells in the battery.
The battery includes the 110 VAC AC-to-DC charger.

Maximum Continuous Discharge Current: 20A
Max Power Delivered to Load @ 24V: 480 Watts (24V x 20A = 480 Watts)
Maximum Peak Discharge Current: 20A
Returns/Exchange: 30 Days
Warranty: 2 Years Standard Lithium Iron Phosphate Battery Warranty
http://www.bioennopower.com/collections/24v-series-lifepo4-lithium-iron-phosphate-batteries/products/24v-10ah-lfp-battery-black-w-pvc-pack

 

[dnmun]

do not buy a battery from bioennopower or whatever their name is.

the BMS does not have a balancing network to balance the pack. it is worse than junk.

 

[DrkAngel]

The Dakota Lithium is the new incarnation of the "Bamboo Lithium".
They traded their signature Bamboo box for ABS plastic.


eZip 24V 10Ah SLA vs Dakota Lithium 24V 10Ah

........................................... eZip SLA ..... Dakota Lithium
Weight ................................... 15lb 2oz .......... ~6lb
Rated capacity .......... @ .5A discharge 10Ah ... @20A discharge 10Ah
Usable capacity @ 10A discharge ..... 5-6Ah ............ 10Ah
Rated Cycles ............................. 400 ................ 2000
Charge rate ........................ 1.25A - 1.5A .......... ≤ 10A
Charge time ........................... 8-12 hours ........ ≥ 1 hour
Discharge rate ........................ 40A fuse .......... 60A surge 20A continuous
Discharge rate for rated life ......... 0.5A ................. 5A
Protection ........................... 40A pack fuse .... 40A fuse & thermal safeties
Charger ............... SLA charger 24V ≤ 1.5A ........ 24V ≤ 10A SLA or ~28-≤30V ≤ 10A bulk charger

Looks like a fabulous upgrade!
Less than ½ the weight and almost 200% the usable energy, of oem SLA.
I have seen 2 x 12V 10Ah between $180 - $200 delivered. That is ½ the price of the eZip 6.14Ah lithium pack
$356 for 4 .... $90 each w/free delivery

If I wasn't already rebuilding my own packs with recycled laptop cells I'd go with these!

and
Made in USA!

 

[Johnny Fever]

Drk.. .. ..
I thank you for your wealth of information in terms of modding. You have done some real positive things in terms of actually riding and using the damn thing. And as well your health is a huge benefactor, Kudos to you Mr. Angel. I've already done 3 of your excellent mods. Thank You sir. And more to come Drk!Your positive energy and input has added to the community in a practical and educational way, compared to the pot-shotters who can't wait to put anyone else on blast, but meanwhile totally missing the big picture and THE FUN while not even contributing useful knowledge to advance the community.

I've had the Currie trailz about 3 weeks and done almost 500 miles. I am having NO problems with the beast.

It's DEFINITELY clunkier than my last road bike.. .. ..But then again, every single bike out there is clunkier than my last road bike.. .. ..a mid 90's Bianchi Reparto Corse, dripping in Campy, that incredible handmade Italian craftsmanship, draped in that GORGEOUS Celeste green. I swear the whole thing was lighter than one of those SLA packs. But then again, the Sidi cycling shoes I had cost over 400 bucks, a different animal, but man THAT was a road bike.

But, I pulled the trigger last night about 9 PM on 2 Dakota lithiums, which will drop right in REAL SWEETLY, LOOKIN PROPPA! Nope, it won't look like a rigged-deal reminiscent of an explosion in a shingle factory. Oh yeah, they already shipped my batteries THIS MORNING. I have grabbed a couple peripherals that have been suggested when moving to the Lithium world.

I guess Mr. Wesnewell knows exactly what the composition of the Dakota batteries are, but I haven't gotten mine yet to inspect, learn, and then comment.
Again Drk, thanks for keeping things rolling! I'll let ya know how it goes!

 

[wesnewell]

All one has to do is read the CAUTION on the picture of the battery. "Does not contain active protection circuit". And then there's the specs.
Specifications
-Discharge: 20A max continuous, 60 max 2-second pulse. 8v max discharge, 11v max recommended discharge. For longest lifetime recommended discharge rate 1-5Amps
-Charge: 10A max, 14v max recommended, 15v max. Compatible with most SLA chargers, use recommended Clean Republic charger for max performance, sold separately.
-Operating temps: Much better than SLA or other lithium’s, -20'F min, +120'F max recommended environmental operating temps.
-Capacity: 10Ah rated up to 80% capacity for 2,000 cycles in recommended conditions.
-Safe, fire resistant internal construction, stable, reliable LiFePO4 chemistry with proven production and market history. "Multiple fail-safe architecture" combines three layers of overlapping safety features including inherently stable chemistry, fireproof internal materials, and multiple heat-activated electrical shutoffs.
-151x65x95mm form factor

Clearly states it's lifepo4. So one can assume that's really what it is without having to tear it apart.
Life cycle clearly states it's based on recommended discharge rate of 1-5A. AFAIK, the ezip controller is a 35A controller, so that's 7-35 times more amp draw than recommended. So how do you think that's going to affect that 2000 cycle life? 20A max discharge means it's a typical 2C rated pack with stated life cycle base on a 0.2C discharge rate, not a 2C discharge rate. IMO, you can consider yourself lucky if you get 500 cycles from this battery used with a 35A controller. And run them down to 8V and you won't see that.

 

[DrkAngel]

The Dakota Lithium is the new incarnation of the "Bamboo Lithium".
They traded their signature Bamboo box for ABS plastic.


eZip 24V 10Ah SLA vs Dakota Lithium 24V 10Ah

........................................... eZip SLA ..... Dakota Lithium
Weight ................................... 15lb 2oz .......... ~6lb
Rated capacity .......... @ .5A discharge 10Ah ... @20A discharge 10Ah
Usable capacity @ 10A discharge ..... 5-6Ah ............ 10Ah
Rated Cycles ............................. 400 ................ 2000
Charge rate ........................ 1.25A - 1.5A .......... ≤ 10A
Charge time ........................... 8-12 hours ........ ≥ 1 hour
Discharge rate ........................ 40A fuse .......... 60A surge 20A continuous
Discharge rate for rated life ......... 0.5A ................. 5A
Protection ........................... 40A pack fuse .... 40A fuse & thermal safeties
Charger ............... SLA charger 24V ≤ 1.5A ........ 24V ≤ 10A SLA or ~28-≤30V ≤ 10A bulk charger

Looks like a fabulous upgrade!
Less than ½ the weight and almost 200% the usable energy, of oem SLA.
I have seen 2 x 12V 10Ah between $180 - $200 delivered. That is ½ the price of the eZip 6.14Ah lithium pack
$360 for 4 .... $90 each w/free delivery

If I wasn't already rebuilding my own packs with recycled laptop cells I'd go with these!

and
Made in USA!

Well, by the specs ... not ideal for the upgraded eZips.

The newer eZips use a 30A controller ...
So, the "20A continuous" is exceeded for the few seconds getting up to speed and possibly on some hills.
20mph, cruising on the level, does use less than 15A @ 24V and pedal assist does improve that noticeably!

My eZip, with 13T mod and 25.9V 25.92Ah recycled Lipo, cruising, motor only at 22-23mph pulls near 20A.

So, while good for the oem eZip, with only mild hills, I would rate the Dakota upgrade as less than ideal for the geared up eZips, unless you intend on applying pedal assist.

For motor only, hilly regions or extended range I would recommend a dual pack Dakota upgrade.
The eZips are designed with a 2 battery pack capable rack.
It is easy to jumper at the switch to tandemize both packs.

This would provide:
24V 20Ah
120A surge and 40A continuous
Double the range
Quadruple the range of the oem SLA

At less than:
the weight of one SLA pack or;
the price of the eZip 6.14Ah Lithium pack

There is still the problem of using the oem SLA charger!
So slow ... !
1.25-1.5A into a 10 or 20Ah pack is ridiculously slow.

4A SLA charger is much better but confirm charge voltage near 28V and absolutely less than 30V!!!

The MeanWell S-150-24 makes a vast improvement with a 5A charge rate (@ the recommended 28V).

10A is even nicer, 75-80% charge in 1 hour (single pack).

 

[Johnny Fever]

Drk
Another one of your mods complete! CHECK!
I just took delivery on an 11-32 T rear freewheel, as I one hundred percent agree that 14 T just doesn't cut it, especially for those who like to run the pedals at a nice rate above 20 mph consistently.
My motor doesn't see any action below 10 mph, I'm most definitely heavy on the pedal power. I'm not one of those TAG loafers, I am more reliant on legs than batteries or motor while getting up to cruising speed.
Thanks for the info on the charging circuitry, and as mentioned before, I have ordered a couple items that are suggested when using lithium batteries as compared to SLA.
Got a couple ideas for DRK mod #5 down the road.
Thanks Again!

 

[imorton]

Sounds like the "dual Dakota pack" would be ideal.

A little more money, but great range and battery cycle life…

IAN…

 

[DrkAngel]

Dakota batteries for dual battery packs = $360 delivered
4 - 12V 10Ah = 2 - 24V 10Ah packs
2000 cycles = 2 full cycles (2x20 miles@20mph or 2x30miles@15mph) every work day for 4 years!
(optimistic estimated cycles till 80% capacity)
40,000 miles @ 20mph
60,000 miles @ 15mph
+ $100 electric cost (based on 10¢ / kWh - USA typical)
=
$115/year, (40-60 miles per day commute), for battery and electricity
($57.50/year, (20-30 miles per day commute), for battery and electricity - 1 daily full charge - 8years)

Damn! .... I think I just convinced myself to build some packs ...

 

[Johnny Fever]

Drk-
Your idea about DUAL Dakota Lithium packs is TWICE AS NICE! As mentioned at the top of the thread, I pulled the trigger on a pair of them a week ago... .. .. Paid addtional to CR for USPS Priority. Clean Republic shipped them first thing the next morning!!! I was stoked because I'd have them in a couple days.. .. ..When I saw the shipping update, they shipped them UPS so it will take a week plus, not the couple days for which I had hoped. I'll let y'all know how it works. When the second SLA ElectroDrive OEM case comes in I ordered a month ago, I'll get that 2 more Dakotas, modding the setup to accommodate them AND I'll be going DUELIE!!!

P.S. DrkAngel Mods FTW!!! That freewheel changeout to 11T is AWESOME ZE-squeezie, but I noticed My gripshifter developed a crack at the cable inlet, so I'm checking out possible derailleur upgrades from the Shimano SIS 7-speed while I'm replacing the gripshifter.
Thanks Drk!

 

[DrkAngel]

Dakota batteries for dual battery packs = $360 delivered
4 - 12V 10Ah = 2 - 24V 10Ah packs
2000 cycles = 2 full cycles (2x20 miles@20mph or 2x30miles@15mph) every work day for 4 years!
(optimistic estimated cycles till 80% capacity)
40,000 miles @ 20mph
60,000 miles @ 15mph
+ $100 electric cost (based on 10¢ / kWh - USA typical)
=
$115/year, (40-60 miles per day commute), for battery and electricity
($57.50/year, (20-30 miles per day commute), for battery and electricity - 1 daily full charge - 8years)

Damn! .... I think I just convinced myself to build some packs ...

Energy cost
Electric cost = /$1 = 400-600 miles = 1600 - 2400 eMPG (Compared to gas @ $4/gallon)
Battery cost = /$1 = 111-166 miles = 444 - 666 eMPG (Compared to gas @ $4/gallon)
Combined Cost = /$1 = 86-129 miles = 348-522 = eMPG (Compared to gas @ $4/gallon)

High speed option
Dual packs can be run in series for 48V,
48V <20A limited controller should limit damaging overheat.
Should make 30mph possible.
Aerodynamic seating and possibly a partial fairing might afford sustainable 30mph cruising without motor damage?

 

[Johnny Fever]

Well Drk,
Dakota LiFePO4 are IN. Then there's this handy dandy cell VM and alarm to install and we will have that 24v 4A LiFePO4 charger by tommorow. Its much bigger than the stock SLA charger, it looks fairly beefy, has a sweet fan, and nice connectors by the looks if things. I was very aggressive in trying to track down a second battery pack. Curries totally improved the design of battery contacts. Even though Currie has been making that newer improved design for a year, they dont even list the item, or show a part number of the newer pack as even available for sale. After a few days looking, FINALLY a place in Texas said they had them, and for less than $100 shipped.NO WAY. I Couldn't believe the KILLER price, or that they even had this item, for that matter. I really did not believe their claim of "in stock", cause nobody had them. Well I waited, and 3 weeks later, I called them and I was told there's a month long national backorder with no date of availability. But Last night, I got a FedEx tracking number. I will have Monday. Yeah Buddy!!!
I know it's no problem to set up either a diode bridge or the like.This month I've spent an easy 7 plus hundy on mods, hardware, accessories; and Park Tools owes me at least card at Christmas. When I get flush again Next month 2 more Dakotas will be ordered.
The Ole SLA packs ran about 15 mph max, but with the new lithium AND a mod from DRKaNGeL, It's 21 mph after Adding the DRKANGEL southpaw freewheel mod. Oh yeah, and with DRK'S 11T rear freewheel suggestion, pedaling gets me way over 25 mph like almost all the time. And at 25 plus mph, you still got headroom to pedal up into the THIRTIES.
All hail DRKANGEL, never fear when DRK is near. Big Ups my brother. THANKS

 

[ipcalit]

Any updates here? How are the Dakota's really performing?

DrkAngel: did you get yours? This would be a simple choice for people that don't have the time/knowledge to mod their eZips.

 

[jk1]

Any updatedson the Dakota 12v lithium 10ah ? has anyone actualy used them ?

They seem pretty good at $100 USD each and 20amp continous discharge and they can be put in series, some of them say u cannot put them in series. Also they will work with the standard SLA chargers so they look like a good SLA replacement

 

[dnmun]

Wes (+1) already pointed out to you the achilles heel and why it is so cheap. no protection circuit. lifepo4 does not survive without it. you have to keep them in balance. you can never over discharge them. it cannot be done without the protection circuit he mentioned.

 

[DrkAngel]

Updated link ...
"Bamboo", "Dakota" 2x 24V 10Ah = $356 delivered

Does anyone have actual experience-evaluation of these batteries?
Johnny Fever?

 

[DrkAngel]

New and Improved!!!

"Specifications

-Discharge: 20A max continuous, 60 max 2-second pulse. 8v max discharge, 11v max recommended discharge. For longest lifetime recommended discharge rate 1-5Amps

-Charge: 10A max, 14v max recommended, 15v max. Compatible with most SLA chargers, use recommended Clean Republic charger for max performance, sold separately.

-Operating temps: Much better than SLA or other lithium’s, -20'F min, +120'F max recommended environmental operating temps.

-Capacity: 10Ah rated up to 80% capacity for 2,000 cycles in recommended conditions.

-Safe, fire resistant internal construction, stable, reliable LiFePO4 chemistry with proven production and market history. "Multiple fail-safe architecture" combines three layers of overlapping safety features including inherently stable chemistry, fireproof internal materials, and multiple heat-activated electrical shutoffs.

-Weight & Dimensions per battery: 2lbs 14oz (1.30Kg) 5.94"x 2.55"x 3.74" (151x65x95mm)

-Includes active BMS (Battery Management System) protection circuit for increased performance and longer life." !!!

Upgraded technology for 1C charge rate! (~80% charge in 1 hour! ... ?)
Now incorporated with an active BMS for battery care and safety!!!

 

[ctcomputers]

Looking to replace tire SLA batteries with Dakota Lithium 12v 10ah and ran across this thread. I need to confirm if my OEM controller is voltage limited or happens to be one that lets me over voltage. I have two Ezip packs and plan to use them both with the lithiums. I would like to hear an update from anybody that is running dual ezip packs with the Dakota 12v 10ah. I would also like to know if you happen to be running the dual packs at 48v 10ah or 24v 20ah and your results. Thanks!

 

[ctcomputers]

Update-checked controller and I apparently have the newer 24v limited model as nothing works or indicates at higher voltage (36v tested). My wife has a stock ezip model and I have the izip trails with freewheel and crankset gearing mods (thanks drkangle). I subsequently have two stock packs with weak SLA batteries from the two bikes. I have already purchased two 12v 10ah Dakotas and will likely purchase another set to provide two converted stock battery packs.

The questions I have is what controller option is recommended if I want to (cautiously monitor/hard-limit/pedal assist) overvolt at 48v using the two converted packs in series on my izip trails model? I'm not opposed to rewiring if necessary but preference is keeping things plug and play if it's affordable.

Similarly I will likely keep my wifes stock ezip bike at 24v. On a stock bike is it recommended to run the dual packs wired in parallel for the additional AH and discharge rate or can a single converted pack be ran safely with pedal-assist, limiting hills...etc? Is a different controller still recommended over stock 24v/30amp and if so, anything plug and play that is affordable?

Thanks to everyone who provides all the information in this forum! I will certainly contribute with my findings and experiments in using these two older ezip/izip bike platforms.