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Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

I'm looking at ways to beef up the drive train before my kit shows up. So far I've added a wolf tooth 40t to the 10 speed cassette and removed my 13t. I will lock out my 11t effectively making it a 9 speed 15t-40t. New wipperman chain going on (most beefy 10sp chain I could find) The crank will get a 36t narrow wide chain ring. Matched up with a saint (clutch) derailleur.
I hope that will be enough for the astro 3215.
 

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I'm hoping the 15t won't skip
 

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hi that will fine 15 t .. i use under load 11t with cycylone motor full mods. it better then A 13 teeth ? i don't know why :?:

i have say use allloy 40 teeth ring not a great idear.. you neeed some alot hard then this for a ebike ,

8/9 speed it the best mid drive ebike . 10/11 speed is a wase of money and time. i don't like at all for mtb bikes only road bike can get away with it . i sill say 11 speed is a joke, you don't need

all the best
 
I just watched the video you posted on Oct 25th. It sounds awesome!

It looks/sounds like it's definitely geared way too high, in that video at least, for any serious trail riding in hilly areas though. Just posting this so your motor/controller lasts longer. If you're bogging it like that often, you're very lucky to have not let some magic smoke out. On my old 3220 bike, when I had it geared for 56mph, lugging it up a hill like that staircase but longer, my 185c thermal ignition cut would trigger after 150-200ft and the hv160 would get too hot to touch. I don't think it would have survived long at that low rpm load so I regeared it for 42 mph and it would only bog if I went up a 30 degree slope with great traction at under 20mph. I don't know if you've got long steep hills where you're at but I just wanted to post this info so the gnarly trail riders will know to significantly gear down from whatever ratio you were running in the video. The torque can be scary but the v3 cycle analyst set to current throttle really tames low geared throttle response.

Hopefully, some day soon, I'll save up enough to get one of your kits to put on something. It's too cool!
 
aCeMadMod said:
hi that will fine 15 t .. i use under load 11t with cycylone motor full mods. it better then A 13 teeth ? i don't know why :?:

i have say use allloy 40 teeth ring not a great idear.. you neeed some alot hard then this for a ebike ,

8/9 speed it the best mid drive ebike . 10/11 speed is a wase of money and time. i don't like at all for mtb bikes only road bike can get away with it . i sill say 11 speed is a joke, you don't need

all the best


I already had the 10sp cassette, shiftier, derailleur, on the bike. Didn't want to go through the expense of changing to 8/9 speed. My theory is that the more teeth in the back, the more the load is spread, hence the 40t.

Also my crank rpm (max), will be around 175. To fast to pedal, but I would rather deliver the power with high crank rpm than high torque to save the drive train.

My max rear wheel rpm (36t crank / 15t wheel) should be around 400rpm....not bad for a 29er free-ride bike. And I can always increase the front sprocket if that's not fast enough.

All still theory...we shall see if it all works out. Once Rohloff finally releases their 142/12 version, that may be the way to go.....if $$$$ is no factor...but always is

Joost
 
ErnestoA, you're right, the gearing in the Kona is off, in fact it's crap. A funky wheel means only 4 cogs fit on the freewheel, the 3210 likes to have 9-10 speeds, that staircase was using a 40-24 gearing, no pedals and little speed at the start. I limit the Cycle Analyst to 60A with an HV80. The Castle Creations logging software shows current spikes up to only 100A (overcurrent limit is 120A) and voltage ripple is less than 1V. Adding a capacitor pack to the system reduces ripple voltage to 0.5V, so meh. I've never damaged an ESC with this setup but of course you could if you tried.

A 3210, 36t front, 11-32t cassette is about perfect.
 
@Ernesto
Not sure I follow what you are saying. Did you look at teeth count and forget about the transmission? 80:1 reduction.
If you look at video at 2.52 you can see he lifts the front wheel going downward just by the flick of the throttle. If the gearing was off, it seems it should not be that easy?

[strike][youtube]F9lML1AqV24#t=172[/youtube][/strike]
Dang this [strike]stupid[/strike] forum wouldn't accept the time count for the video, you must fast forward 172 seconds (2.52 min) yourself then.

[youtube]F9lML1AqV24[/youtube]
 
You're both right. The 40-24 final drive is a bit too tall for 30% grades to be stress-free but when the terrain flatter my crappy 4 speed works fine. I thought a 4 speed might be about right but on the trail I find that I want the gear between what I have too often, 9/10 speeds I think are the way to go. Using the lowest final gear that gives ~5k motor RPM at the trail speed you want is the best way to tackle big hills. This uses the least current, comfortable pedal cadence (if you're so inclined) and gives you plenty of RPM headroom to play with while you ascend. With this kit, anything over 1/4 throttle should mean acceleration.
 
That's great advice. A lot of people don't really understand gearing and motor loads so I just wanted to put something really clear out there. The higher the motor speed, the lower the amps, and big amps/low speeds are tough on stuff for sure.

@MacRibs
About the wheelie, even when geared for 56, my old 3220 bike would spit right from under a 240 lb baja racer if the throttle got pegged but it would still get way too hot on long hill climbs. A wheelie takes a short burst of high current, which the parts can usually handle. A steep hill loads everything up similarly for a longer period of time and the small components can't shed heat fast enough. Bigger motors and controllers take longer to saturate due to mass but still have the same issue. That's why the Bultaco e-bike isn't out yet. They went with a hubbie for a trail bike and it can't handle hills. I offered to give them a design for a sick mid drive bike for free, just too see it get built, but I guess they weren't interested. I've kept quiet about it for months now but the kickstarter folks deserve to know what the hold up is. Hills either need the right gears or mass, forced cooling, and big amps. Put knobbies and suspension on a bike, and someone's going to try riding it up nasty hills..lol A lot of guys here think motor design can replace gearing but unless someone builds a dual diameter stator motor that uses a lot of poles and large diameter stator for low speed, then switches to the smaller diameter stator with fewer poles(due to controller e-rpm limits) for high speeds, off road bikes that can climb slowly and also go fast need gearing options. Usually two or three speeds is plenty with 8kw on tap so 6 speeds with 3kw and a similar speed range sounds perfect.

When geared down to 42, I got a 1.6 second peak of 666 amps out of my poor little hv160 despite all of the current limiting, going from 3mph to 42 in just a fraction of a second longer than the peak, balancing between kissing the front tire and flipping over backwards, but a sustained steep slow hillclimb at 160 amps would sure heat things up. At first, gearing it down made it violent, but I can't express how much more controllable the bike became when I figured out the perfect CA settings. The coolest revelation was setting the throttle voltage threshold slightly below resting throttle voltage and setting it up so the throttle wouldn't work under 3mph. This keeps the motor spinning all the time, even when off the throttle, only pulling 1 amp and easily over-rideable by the brakes and it kept the slack out of the chain which prevented the surge feeling when first hitting the throttle.

ICE dirt bikes are similar. For crazy wheelies, I'd usually start in second gear on my old XR660R because there was enough juice to get it up there and enough speed to keep it up for long enough to get settled enough to upshift. If I started on a steep hill in 2nd, it was either slip the clutch a ton until it got going, or stall out.
 
It's in the CA-LRC V3 settings somewhere. I'm not sure if the older ones can be reflashed.

Here's the dev thread for the CA with RC controller features.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=29846&hilit=ca+lrc
 
He hasn't got it yet. The black parts are still at the anodizing shop, the oil seals are supposed to ship to me this coming week and Astro seems to be backed up. Ugh, it's killing me too. Things will go faster after this batch- multiple hardware changes at the same time takes...time. The machining will be much more efficient now that the HW is finalized for a while and I should be able to start stocking gearboxes. I'm working on a website update this weekend...and another bike build...zomg...951...

-dave
 
*subscribed

Dave,
This drive is Killer! I love the compactness and simplicity. I will be putting some $$ aside to buy one of these as soon as I sell a few things.

Keep up the good work, I'd love to see some pictures of your shop and some of the machining processes, but I understand if you would rather not post that.
 
Just pulled the old crank off. Bike is primed and ready for the kit. Looking forward to my light weight enduro mtb. 14s 8p in camel back.
 
joostj said:
14s 8p in camel back.

I know your build is pretty wild, but I thought the ESC maxed out at 12s? Did you get a larger one?

I'm interested to see how your setup turns out - as I kinda want a 22t freewheel (and 14s) now that I know they exist :).

90 days in and no problems. I've been riding every day.
 
adriftatsea said:
joostj said:
14s 8p in camel back.

I know your build is pretty wild, but I thought the ESC maxed out at 12s? Did you get a larger one?

I'm interested to see how your setup turns out - as I kinda want a 22t freewheel (and 14s) now that I know they exist :).

90 days in and no problems. I've been riding every day.
adriftatsea
Whats your Heckler weigh without batts? I want to do a Santa Cruz Bronson OR Nomad with this kit.
 
Here's a quote from Dave from an email;

"We should definietly use an HV120 to get the most out of the motor. I'm not going to be able to make an ESC soon- I plan on testing then integrating the Grin Phaserunner as soon as I can, when they start shipping them in two months. So, that means we need to use a 14S Li-Ion pack at 52V with the HV120"

Based on that I hope 14s will work.
 
The Castle Creations HV series is rated for 12S, 50V. However, a 14S Li-Ion pack with a full charge is 54V and drops to 50V pretty quick. The ESC doesn't mind at all. The LunaCycle 52V packs are what I prefer over the 12S LiPo setup now; the performance difference is very apparent to the rider. Even though the Lunacycle packs do cost about twice what a LiPo setup does, I think it's worth it. The packs are nice, charging is easy peasy, they supply sufficient amperage with less voltage sag and the 20Ah pack is a great size and about 10lbs. joostj is running the larger motor at a lower reduction so he might need more current from time to time to make the torque we're after in the higher gears, hence the HV120.

Adriftatsea, I'll get you the new gearbox pretty soon, it'll have an 18t freewheel on the motor.

I'm worried about Astro Flight, I spoke with them this morning and they're backed up a whole month. Ugh, I don't know when they're going to ship me this batch of motors.

Edit: I use the 52V Lunacycle packs on my rides. It's fine and feels nicer than a soggy LiPo pack. I say soggy 'cause my 12S 16Ah multistar LiPos are at 42-44V for most of the ride which feels soggy compared to a 48-50V 14S pack.



-dave
 
morati said:
Whats your Heckler weigh without batts? I want to do a Santa Cruz Bronson OR Nomad with this kit.

I'll have to get back to you on that. I rolled it into the office mailroom, wrangled it onto the scale only to find out the scale maxes out at 30lbs.

This build was focused on having reliable, over engineered components everywhere. Any weight savings were a bonus. I've been waiting to see a carbon Nomad/Bronson pop up on ES - awesome bikes and one of the few companies I'd trust with carbon+40mph potholes.

tangentdave said:
joostj is running the larger motor at a lower reduction so he might need more current from time to time to make the torque we're after in the higher gears, hence the HV120.

Ah gotcha. I'll have to rig up an extra 2s worth and try 14s sometime this week. I too notice the multistars are kinda weak when compared to my 'nano' turnigy packs.


Adriftatsea, I'll get you the new gearbox pretty soon, it'll have an 18t freewheel on the motor.

Awesome. I'm in no rush - everything still works great. My commute is about to drop to <.5mi soon, which greatly reduces my need for street friendly speeds.

I'm worried about Astro Flight, I spoke with them this morning and they're backed up a whole month.

The drone business must be good (I'm guessing that's their main focus).


---
pretty stealthy from >15ft.
tL3NJnx.jpg
 
Thanks for the quick responses guys. I already own capable ebike for fast flowing singletrack but need something for the tight technical stuff. We have one system of trails up here in Ontario that is a joy to ride in the winter months. Forty to fifty mtbr's meet every weekend to pack down the snow so the rocky trails can be rideable. The track is only about 8 inches wide and if you leave it, you are up to your axles in powder so it pays to ride smooth. This system on a capable mtb should be the ticket at approx. 35lbs without battery. I anxiously await updates!
 
wow is this how loud the Tanget kit is ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ojifdokMKw


That has to be the loudest mid drive kit I have heard ! its not surprise since its the highest RPM and has a strait cut metal gears gearbox. It's a shame it would have been a lot quieter being belt drive.
 
Check the noise in this video also, because I think changes has been made to mounting, vibration etc:
Then you probably will not ride WOT all the time in crowded streets, or in public parks and as revs goes down so does the sound level.

[youtube]F9lML1AqV24[/youtube]
 
Just stay on top of Astro. Their service, or lack thereof, is a big reason why I'm no longer in the ebike game in any serious fashion. Sadly, the squeeky wheel gets the grease and I'm not a good squeeker. If they're a month behind again, someone with some money needs to get in to the inrunner manufacturing game. Their motors are nothing near rocket science and there's obviously more demand than they can handle. If they had decent service and shipping times, they'd own the market but ever since Astro sold, I'm thinking they need some competition.
 
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