Durango, CO: Electric bikes cause revolt on river trail
- Thread starter Lock
- Start date
MattyCiii
100 kW
I used to ride my pedal only bike on the local recreational trail. Actually, it's been billed since it was built over 35 years ago as a "bike path". It's always been a one way path, I used to ride it as a chile when part of it was a dirt path only.
After years living elsewhere I returned to my home town and riding that path again. In the years I was away, the path had become very popular with walkers. Walkers with headphones and no regard for the one-way nature of the path.
My first near collision, I was riding my recumbent (Nice big 50t chainring forward) down "the big hill" - it has a blind curve at the bottom. I rang my bell at the top. What do you know, at the very bottom of the hill I was faced with a pregnant woman walking the wrong way wearing headphones. I locked up my wheels and nearly lost control, she sidestepped me without breaking stride. I yelled after her and we exchanged words - enough for me to realize you can't fix stupid. I've had other near collisions with walkers going the wrong way.
I wrote the mayor who replied they'd put up more signs and ask the grounds keepers to talk to wrong-way walkers - but nothing improved and I've given up on that path.
I've ridden other "multi-use paths" - paved paths through parks mostly. Cyclists and runners are OK, they follow a predictable path. It's the people on a leisurely stroll, who stop, turn and dart at random and without thinking - these people are the real problem.
But here we go again. People want to ban an entire class of transportation/recreation. Why? because they don't have the balls to stand up to people behaving dangerously. Whether that's walking on the path in the wrong direction, riding a bicycle or electric bike at an unsafe speed, or violating dog poop scoop regulations, the core of the problem is the lack of backbone to enforce individual violations.
After years living elsewhere I returned to my home town and riding that path again. In the years I was away, the path had become very popular with walkers. Walkers with headphones and no regard for the one-way nature of the path.
My first near collision, I was riding my recumbent (Nice big 50t chainring forward) down "the big hill" - it has a blind curve at the bottom. I rang my bell at the top. What do you know, at the very bottom of the hill I was faced with a pregnant woman walking the wrong way wearing headphones. I locked up my wheels and nearly lost control, she sidestepped me without breaking stride. I yelled after her and we exchanged words - enough for me to realize you can't fix stupid. I've had other near collisions with walkers going the wrong way.
I wrote the mayor who replied they'd put up more signs and ask the grounds keepers to talk to wrong-way walkers - but nothing improved and I've given up on that path.
I've ridden other "multi-use paths" - paved paths through parks mostly. Cyclists and runners are OK, they follow a predictable path. It's the people on a leisurely stroll, who stop, turn and dart at random and without thinking - these people are the real problem.
But here we go again. People want to ban an entire class of transportation/recreation. Why? because they don't have the balls to stand up to people behaving dangerously. Whether that's walking on the path in the wrong direction, riding a bicycle or electric bike at an unsafe speed, or violating dog poop scoop regulations, the core of the problem is the lack of backbone to enforce individual violations.
dogman dan
1 PW
Well, if the signs say no motorized vehicles, then street legal ebikes are a motorized vehicle. They are NOT a motor vehicle.
The key thing is that 90% of the others on the trail will ignore an ebike that is being ridden by a gentleman. As long as the cops don't get sucked into enforcing it, I'd keep riding the trail, and behaving better than the regular cyclists.
But if you ride like a jackass on a crowded trail, then you deserve to be hounded.
The key thing is that 90% of the others on the trail will ignore an ebike that is being ridden by a gentleman. As long as the cops don't get sucked into enforcing it, I'd keep riding the trail, and behaving better than the regular cyclists.
But if you ride like a jackass on a crowded trail, then you deserve to be hounded.
ebent
10 kW
I love going fast. Most of us do. Well said Dogman. My rule of thumb is to reduce my speed to slightly faster than any pedestrian in my path. My ride is quit so my stereo music anounces me without the need to blast them with a loud horn. When they notice me they usually step aside and apoligize for being in my path. Then I thank them and wish them well. Frequently as I pass walkers they engage me in conversation which I enjoy and encourage. Basicly play along and get along. Much more pleasant and easier.
Then there is the jerk that this thread is about. I hope there is no participation in the idiots attempt at protest. And I hope that logic prevails. That is a big hope as I think, unfortunatly, a majority of us humans are not logical. Fingers crossed.
Then there is the jerk that this thread is about. I hope there is no participation in the idiots attempt at protest. And I hope that logic prevails. That is a big hope as I think, unfortunatly, a majority of us humans are not logical. Fingers crossed.
itchynackers
100 kW
In Wisconsin, 500watt, 20mph max ebike is not a "motorized vehicle". It is a "motor bicycle". So even though trail signs say no motorized vehicles, by the state ordinances, there isn't a violation (in my mind).
Drunkskunk
100 GW
The author of that article is a real idiot.
But he's not the problem. It's the idiots riding too fast and giving ebikes a bad name that is the real problem. If you had ebikers out riding at the same speed as other bikers, yeilding right of way to less powerfull pedal bikes and walkers, and in general standing out only when doing something positive for others, then this author would either not be writing about ebikes at all, or writing about how wounderfull these new electric bicycles are for the comunity.
It only takes one idiot on an ebike to ruin the reputation of all ebiker's in a comunity. One Dumba$$ doing something epicly thoughtless like blowing past and scareing some uneducated but vocal walker on a sidewalk to get ebikes banned in a town.
Maybe a few of the Larger, more crazy and less reputable members of our comunity should go vistit Durango and educate the local vilage ebike idiot on how not to ruin it for the rest of us, but sticking his battery leads up his.. Well, its just a thought.
But he's not the problem. It's the idiots riding too fast and giving ebikes a bad name that is the real problem. If you had ebikers out riding at the same speed as other bikers, yeilding right of way to less powerfull pedal bikes and walkers, and in general standing out only when doing something positive for others, then this author would either not be writing about ebikes at all, or writing about how wounderfull these new electric bicycles are for the comunity.
It only takes one idiot on an ebike to ruin the reputation of all ebiker's in a comunity. One Dumba$$ doing something epicly thoughtless like blowing past and scareing some uneducated but vocal walker on a sidewalk to get ebikes banned in a town.
Maybe a few of the Larger, more crazy and less reputable members of our comunity should go vistit Durango and educate the local vilage ebike idiot on how not to ruin it for the rest of us, but sticking his battery leads up his.. Well, its just a thought.
cal3thousand
10 MW
Punx0r said:Power gives way to sail
Ebike gives way to pedal cycle
pedal cycle gives way to pedestrian
Pedestrian obeys any rules pertaining to where they are walking
Everyone is happy
Kind of reminds me of my learning with boats. The larger heavier boat has the right of way. The smaller, more maneuverable vessels is supposed to yield.
dogman dan
1 PW
Yeah well,,, In the USA all aircraft yeild to free balloons. But only a real idiot flies his balloon near the airport. Sure a jet may miss you, but his wind will turn you upside down.
So despite the faa rule, balloons avoid jets.
Most people, including a local cop or judge would say a street legal electric bike is a motorized vehicle. Banned from a place that's posted no motorized vehicles unless there is language in state law that allows them, such as segways and electric wheelchairs often have made happen.
I'm just damn glad the local BLM mountain bike trails are posted, "NO Motor Vehicles". So ebikes below 20 mph are legal.
I just don't tell anybody mine does 25. :wink:
Some new paved bike path in town has signs that say no motorized vehicles. But on the other hand, they put so many damn bollards all over it that it's pretty much unusable for anything. Bikes, baby buggies, only a dang walking person can get through the bollard maze ever 500 feet on that trail. Fortunately on the other side of the flood drain ditch the paved path is on, there remains a perfectly good dirt path you can legaly do 50 mph on with a dirtbike.
So despite the faa rule, balloons avoid jets.
Most people, including a local cop or judge would say a street legal electric bike is a motorized vehicle. Banned from a place that's posted no motorized vehicles unless there is language in state law that allows them, such as segways and electric wheelchairs often have made happen.
I'm just damn glad the local BLM mountain bike trails are posted, "NO Motor Vehicles". So ebikes below 20 mph are legal.
I just don't tell anybody mine does 25. :wink: Some new paved bike path in town has signs that say no motorized vehicles.
But on the other hand, they put so many damn bollards all over it that it's pretty much unusable for anything. Bikes, baby buggies, only a dang walking person can get through the bollard maze ever 500 feet on that trail. Fortunately on the other side of the flood drain ditch the paved path is on, there remains a perfectly good dirt path you can legaly do 50 mph on with a dirtbike. John in CR
100 TW
I'm glad I don't have to ride on paths with pedestrians. That would suck. Utilizing the vast unused space on the road is where I'll happily stay, pissing off no one other than jealous types stuck in traffic while I cruise by slowly (I don't ride fast in crawling traffic.) and effortlessly.
Even the lycras don't treat me as an untouchable anymore. I think that's due to so many roadies seeing me enough times using my ebikes as primary transportation, a number of times having the opportunity to give The Talk, and quite a few roadies getting to see me kick the shit out of both 2 and 4 wheel gassers.
I love that I get to ride like I want, which is in a sufficiently conscientious and respectful manner but at traffic matching or greater speeds that the few who don't want one have no issue with me on mine. It's great being an ebike ambassador with no worries other than whether it will rain or not. I can't believe none of you guys have opted out of the rat race and moved to ebike heaven.
John
Even the lycras don't treat me as an untouchable anymore. I think that's due to so many roadies seeing me enough times using my ebikes as primary transportation, a number of times having the opportunity to give The Talk, and quite a few roadies getting to see me kick the shit out of both 2 and 4 wheel gassers.
I love that I get to ride like I want, which is in a sufficiently conscientious and respectful manner but at traffic matching or greater speeds that the few who don't want one have no issue with me on mine. It's great being an ebike ambassador with no worries other than whether it will rain or not. I can't believe none of you guys have opted out of the rat race and moved to ebike heaven.
John
cal3thousand
10 MW
John in CR said:
John, as soon as my business is finished on the mainland, I will seek a heavenly port such as you have.
Until then, I plan on equipping my next bike with the largest and loudest 12V boat horn that will fit. :lol:
mdd0127
100 kW
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2008
- Messages
- 1,084
Being that I used to live in/near Durango, this article pissed me off a bit.
Here's my letter to the columnist:
Here's my letter to the columnist:
Hi,
I'm pretty disgusted with your column about electric bikes from 8/5/12. I am an inventor and have put the last few years of my life and around $100k into designing the ultimate electric bike. I used to live in Mancos, Hesperus, and worked in Durango so I'm very familiar with the area. The bike that I'm working on is designed to be more like a pedalable ultralight motorcycle so it's designed to go 50mph and able to keep up with traffic, making it safe to ride on regular roads. It also weighs less than 75 lbs and is as capable as a downhill race bike.
Here's a quick video of my drive train test mule:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8A-HFUzzfM
The idea is to build a bike that will provide a fun, fast, sustainable commute, and also allow the rider to "self shuttle" on downhill trails. Also since the bike is so capable, I'm hoping that people will want to give up their gas powered dirt bikes and switch to something that will perform better with less environmental impact on the trails and the air.
My guess as to why people are riding electric bikes on the river trail in Durango is that it's because the traffic is so horribly mismanaged on the streets that it just isn't safe to ride a bike on them unless it can do 45 mph. The aggressive, narrow minded, idiot drivers don't help matters either. I used to ride my bicycle from work at Mercury Payment Systems into downtown for lunch and nearly got ran over every time! I would have loved to stay in Durango permanently but so many idiots have over run the place that I can't stand the town anymore.......which is really sad because it's a beautiful place.
Most electric bikes, as per federal law, are governed to a top speed of 20mph and a maximum of 750 watts. A fit cyclist can outperform these bikes on muscle power alone so the argument that the electric bikes are faster, and equating potentially faster into being dangerous is bogus. The bikes that you're complaining about, as seen by federal law, are no different from a pedal only bike and are just as safe as their operators allow them to be, just like a pedal bike. Those that are faster should be registered and insured as mopeds and ridden with regular traffic on the streets. Should Porsches be banned from public highways because they can go faster than the speed limit??? If someone is riding like an idiot, blame the someone, not the thing that they're riding....
This article screams typical Durango cycle snobbery. The positive impacts that would be seen if more people rode electric bikes and left their cars at home would blow your mind. Imagine being able to get across town at noon, in five minutes!
Electric bikes have a lower carbon footprint than pedal only bikes. A friend of mine proved this by riding a regular bike across Canada and tracking the costs/efficiency, then by doing the same ride on an electrically assisted bike. Completing the trip on the electric bike was four times more energy efficient than the pedal bike because the trip took one quarter as long as it took to do it on human power alone.
So, before you bash something again because you simply don't understand it, do a bit of research. Articles filled with ignorant opinions don't do anyone any good.........unless you're trying to make Durango look like a crappy place with a bunch of judgmental people so people quit moving there......which is something that I would understand.
USAEBIKECO
10 kW
Just the other day I had a Lance Armstrong type guy with a regular pedal bike blow right past me on my 48v bike doing 25mph.. What are you going to ban him too?
Sunder
10 MW
While I agree that there are Dumba$$ eBikers giving all of us a bad name, I also believe there are Dumba$$ pedestrians that believe they "were nearly run down" when a pushbike passes within 2 metres of them, at 15km/h.
I'd say in the next 2-5 years, we'll see a lot more cracking down on illegal eBikes.
mdd0127
100 kW
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2008
- Messages
- 1,084
mdd0127 said:Being that I used to live in/near Durango, this article pissed me off a bit.
Here's my letter to the columnist:
Hi,
I'm pretty disgusted with your column about electric bikes from 8/5/12. I am an inventor and have put the last few years of my life and around $100k into designing the ultimate electric bike. I used to live in Mancos, Hesperus, and worked in Durango so I'm very familiar with the area. The bike that I'm working on is designed to be more like a pedalable ultralight motorcycle so it's designed to go 50mph and able to keep up with traffic, making it safe to ride on regular roads. It also weighs less than 75 lbs and is as capable as a downhill race bike.
Here's a quick video of my drive train test mule:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8A-HFUzzfM
The idea is to build a bike that will provide a fun, fast, sustainable commute, and also allow the rider to "self shuttle" on downhill trails. Also since the bike is so capable, I'm hoping that people will want to give up their gas powered dirt bikes and switch to something that will perform better with less environmental impact on the trails and the air.
My guess as to why people are riding electric bikes on the river trail in Durango is that it's because the traffic is so horribly mismanaged on the streets that it just isn't safe to ride a bike on them unless it can do 45 mph. The aggressive, narrow minded, idiot drivers don't help matters either. I used to ride my bicycle from work at Mercury Payment Systems into downtown for lunch and nearly got ran over every time! I would have loved to stay in Durango permanently but so many idiots have over run the place that I can't stand the town anymore.......which is really sad because it's a beautiful place.
Most electric bikes, as per federal law, are governed to a top speed of 20mph and a maximum of 750 watts. A fit cyclist can outperform these bikes on muscle power alone so the argument that the electric bikes are faster, and equating potentially faster into being dangerous is bogus. The bikes that you're complaining about, as seen by federal law, are no different from a pedal only bike and are just as safe as their operators allow them to be, just like a pedal bike. Those that are faster should be registered and insured as mopeds and ridden with regular traffic on the streets. Should Porsches be banned from public highways because they can go faster than the speed limit??? If someone is riding like an idiot, blame the someone, not the thing that they're riding....
This article screams typical Durango cycle snobbery. The positive impacts that would be seen if more people rode electric bikes and left their cars at home would blow your mind. Imagine being able to get across town at noon, in five minutes!
Electric bikes have a lower carbon footprint than pedal only bikes. A friend of mine proved this by riding a regular bike across Canada and tracking the costs/efficiency, then by doing the same ride on an electrically assisted bike. Completing the trip on the electric bike was four times more energy efficient than the pedal bike because the trip took one quarter as long as it took to do it on human power alone.
So, before you bash something again because you simply don't understand it, do a bit of research. Articles filled with ignorant opinions don't do anyone any good.........unless you're trying to make Durango look like a crappy place with a bunch of judgmental people so people quit moving there......which is something that I would understand.
The author, Mike sumthinerother, wrote me back.
Here's his response:
mike from the DurangoHerald said:
And my response:
mdd0127 said:Hi Mike,
While I still think that your article was a little out of line, I appreciate your response.
I really miss big parts of Durango and maybe someday, if the population there gets back down to 5000 or so, and the only businesses open are the breweries, restaurants, mom and pops places, and purg, I'll be back.
As far as winter goes, you don't have to remind me about that..... Believe me. I remember
If you want to learn more about e-bikes and their potential positive impact, here are a couple of good sites to browse through:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/
http://www.electricbike.com/
While I respect everyone's right to an opinion, when I see people that in a public forum, with lots of readers, express less than informed opinions suggesting violence against other people because of something they don't understand, or something that is awesome but that a few bad apples decided to abuse, I feel the need to offer those expressing the less than informed opinions the chance to educate and redeem themselves.
It would be nice if you wrote another piece someday about the possible benefits of alternative urban transport. Maybe you could bring up registration systems for high use trails so people could be reported and fined for being jerks on the trails....no matter what they're riding???
There are solutions other than disinformation and violence for problems like clogged trails, bad traffic, and iffy reporting...
Thanks again for writing back.
Wishing you well as well.
Danny
mdd0127
100 kW
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2008
- Messages
- 1,084
dogman said:
The trail in this article can either be really awesome if no one is on it and you can just cruise or total hell if it's jam packed, only because of how cool it you knew it could be if it wasn't so crowded. I've been down it the whole way, many times, on skateboards and bikes. Even though it was packed with walkers, and other cyclists and skateboarders, many of which going well over 20mph, I never really had any close calls because when it was busy, it was obvious, and I went slow. I haven't been there in a couple of years so if that town is growing like it was when I left, I bet that trail is packed all of the time now. It's a damn shame because the area is beautiful and Durango used to be a really cool town. Too many people now....just like everywhere else.......
On the other side of things, over on the advrider forums, someone just posted a ride report about a few guys taking their KTM's out up there by Durango and running them all over the downhill trail......
Jeremy Harris
100 MW
You have already have a precedent in the US for deciding that some forms of motorised transport aren't what they seem, and this precedent should used to declare ebikes as being defined legally as bicycles.
The US law in question is FAR Part 103, which changes the legal definition of ultralight aircraft from being aircraft to being vehicles. This legal change in definition then automatically exempts ultralights from many of the laws that apply to aircraft, just because legally they are no longer aircraft.
Here in the UK we have had a law for many years now that changes the legal definition of an electrically assisted pedal cycle from being a motorised vehicle to being a pedal cycle. This means that ebikes are treated legally as pedal cycles. This only applies to ebikes that comply either with the UK EAPC regulations or the EU EPAC regulations (both are legal here).
I believe that one problem in the US (as seen from the perspective of this outsider) seems to be in the division between federal and state jurisdiction. It seems that you have some areas that are declaring ebikes to be illegal, some areas that allow quite high performance ebikes to be legal and some areas where the law is simply unclear. Must be as confusing as hell if you move around a bit!
Perhaps what's needed is something equivalent to FAR Part 103, but for ebikes. A fixed definition enshrined in federal law that makes an ebike with certain speed/power limits a pedal cycle everywhere in the US. This would circumvent local activists making daft claims for ebikes to be licensed and registered.
The US law in question is FAR Part 103, which changes the legal definition of ultralight aircraft from being aircraft to being vehicles. This legal change in definition then automatically exempts ultralights from many of the laws that apply to aircraft, just because legally they are no longer aircraft.
Here in the UK we have had a law for many years now that changes the legal definition of an electrically assisted pedal cycle from being a motorised vehicle to being a pedal cycle. This means that ebikes are treated legally as pedal cycles. This only applies to ebikes that comply either with the UK EAPC regulations or the EU EPAC regulations (both are legal here).
I believe that one problem in the US (as seen from the perspective of this outsider) seems to be in the division between federal and state jurisdiction. It seems that you have some areas that are declaring ebikes to be illegal, some areas that allow quite high performance ebikes to be legal and some areas where the law is simply unclear. Must be as confusing as hell if you move around a bit!
Perhaps what's needed is something equivalent to FAR Part 103, but for ebikes. A fixed definition enshrined in federal law that makes an ebike with certain speed/power limits a pedal cycle everywhere in the US. This would circumvent local activists making daft claims for ebikes to be licensed and registered.
Sunder
10 MW
Just adding to what Jeremy said, Australia is similar to the US, where we have nationally consistent road rules, national design rules (called ADRs - Australian Design Regulations), but every state gets to have the final say on any "exception" laws.
For example, in Victoria, hook turns are mandatory at an intersection with a tram. Most New South Welshmen wouldn't even know what a hook turn is.
Ride in Griffith Street South, Tweed Heads, NSW on a 50cc, 200W petrol bike, and you're a push bike. 1 meter over the line to Griffith Street North, Coolangatta, Queensland, and you're riding an unregistered vehicle.
That said, we're unlike the US, where people move from state to state. We tend to be a very localised bunch. Most people live in the same state their entire life.
For example, in Victoria, hook turns are mandatory at an intersection with a tram. Most New South Welshmen wouldn't even know what a hook turn is.
Ride in Griffith Street South, Tweed Heads, NSW on a 50cc, 200W petrol bike, and you're a push bike. 1 meter over the line to Griffith Street North, Coolangatta, Queensland, and you're riding an unregistered vehicle.
That said, we're unlike the US, where people move from state to state. We tend to be a very localised bunch. Most people live in the same state their entire life.
dogman dan
1 PW
Yeah, I'm a real 1% er. I give a damn about not ruining ebiking for everybody else in my town. Must be my age. I certainly wouldn't have cared a bit in my 20's.
What's a hook turn?
The original article is pretty sad. What does it take to make ebikes accepted?
The original article is pretty sad. What does it take to make ebikes accepted?
