E-Bike Ultra Mile?

[LI-ghtcycle]

I am trying to remember if there was a post focused specifically on making long range on an E-Bike a priority with out pedaling, to test the real world range of different set-ups?

Please help me find if anyone knows?

I have searched and haven't found it, otherwise I guess I can start a new topic ...

Thanks!

 

[dogman dan]

Well, you could use any of my numbers.. Not like I pedal hard enough to matter much on any ride over 10 miles. On a long ride like 60 miles or more, I pedal so my ass doesn't fall asleep, but it's just flapping the legs after the first 20 miles or so.

This is why I rarely see less than 25 wh/mi on any really long ride, unless I ride even slower than 15 mph.

On this bike,, 25 wh/mi is about 18 mph. even if towing the trailer.

On that fankenbike with the gigantic panniers. the wind drag on that thing was horrible, so 25 wh/mi was 15 mph.

 

[cell_man]

You can't beat physics. Reducing wind resistance and rolling resistance will do more for range/power usage than changing the motor setup IMPO, unless the terrain is quite hilly (where variable gearing could offer significant gains). Wind resistance increases exponentially, so keeping speeds moderate will significantly reduce power usage and maximize range.

The best you can do with regards the motor, is to have an efficient motor and to operate it at full throttle and maximum PWM, so the motor shouldn't be too fast and be suitably matched to the requirements and application. Controllers tend to be less efficientat part throttle, than full throttle, hence the suggestion.

If the terrain is hilly, a middle motor which can take advantage of the gears, would likely be the most efficient option. On the flat, a suitable speed dd motor could be the most efficient option. There is only so much a few percent increase in efficiency, will reduce power usage. Reducing the power requirements should be able to yield bigger gains, but then again you might not want to run a streamliner or race bike tyres, so it is a compromise and don't expect any miracles.

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

Good stuff Dogman! I like the leather bags! 8)

Ok, here is what I have so far, I stopped using the pedals after one set of bearings went south until we get a better BB solution on this bike, so no pedaling numbers are easy to get (I feel so weird not pedaling! almost like I am doing something wrong, that and my butt gets sore easier :wink: )



I went on a "E-Bike Ultra Mile" endurance test, speed not considered, just range, no pedaling from Oregon City to Milwaukie coasting as much as possible, but with long steep hills, both directions, I was able to get low Wh/Mile, but my butt was wishing for my recumbent after about an hour! :wink:

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

You can't beat physics. Reducing wind resistance and rolling resistance will do more for range/power usage than changing the motor setup IMPO, unless the terrain is quite hilly (where variable gearing could offer significant gains). Wind resistance increases exponentially, so keeping speeds moderate will significantly reduce power usage and maximize range.

The best you can do with regards the motor, is to have an efficient motor and to operate it at full throttle and maximum PWM, so the motor shouldn't be too fast and be suitably matched to the requirements and application. Controllers tend to be less efficientat part throttle, than full throttle, hence the suggestion.

If the terrain is hilly, a middle motor which can take advantage of the gears, would likely be the most efficient option. On the flat, a suitable speed dd motor could be the most efficient option. There is only so much a few percent increase in efficiency, will reduce power usage. Reducing the power requirements should be able to yield bigger gains, but then again you might not want to run a streamliner or race bike tyres, so it is a compromise and don't expect any miracles.

Amen to that! That is why I love the recumbent, you already reduce the drag significantly just by the riding position.

The E-Zilla isn't aero by any means, but the Cro Motor is still very efficient at partial throttle, but if I am in lowest "gear" with the NuVinci CVP , top speed is about 12 MPH *** EDIT *** (20 MPH on WoT, but cruises more efficiently at 12 mph), I will have to test again at WoT in low and see what results I get.

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

Did some more testing today, had my nephew following, so I kept it bicycle friendly speeds (he's on a BMX) of about 10 mph, w/ trailer, 2.5 miles, 18 Wh/Mile (444 gross weight, bike, rider & trailer).

 

[Hillhater]

..... no pedaling numbers are easy to get (I feel so weird not pedaling! almost like I am doing something wrong, that and my butt gets sore easier :wink: )
I was able to get low Wh/Mile, but my butt was wishing for my recumbent after about an hour! :wink:

.. maybe you should get one of these seats from Day 6 .. ?
http://www.day6bikes.com/photo-gallery/#

 

[cell_man]

You can't beat physics. Reducing wind resistance and rolling resistance will do more for range/power usage than changing the motor setup IMPO, unless the terrain is quite hilly (where variable gearing could offer significant gains). Wind resistance increases exponentially, so keeping speeds moderate will significantly reduce power usage and maximize range.

The best you can do with regards the motor, is to have an efficient motor and to operate it at full throttle and maximum PWM, so the motor shouldn't be too fast and be suitably matched to the requirements and application. Controllers tend to be less efficientat part throttle, than full throttle, hence the suggestion.

If the terrain is hilly, a middle motor which can take advantage of the gears, would likely be the most efficient option. On the flat, a suitable speed dd motor could be the most efficient option. There is only so much a few percent increase in efficiency, will reduce power usage. Reducing the power requirements should be able to yield bigger gains, but then again you might not want to run a streamliner or race bike tyres, so it is a compromise and don't expect any miracles.

Amen to that! That is why I love the recumbent, you already reduce the drag significantly just by the riding position.

The E-Zilla isn't aero by any means, but the Cro Motor is still very efficient at partial throttle, but if I am in lowest "gear" with the NuVinci CVP , top speed is about 12 MPH *** EDIT *** (20 MPH on WoT, but cruises more efficiently at 12 mph), I will have to test again at WoT in low and see what results I get.

A recumbent will definitely help, as will keeping speeds low. A good friend and customer of mine supplies Mac kits, that power wheel chairs, using a special attachment they build in the UK. I was amazed at how far he could get on a charge (and he is a big guy). The speeds were kept pretty low (~15mph on the road). His setup is quite low and therefore should have less drag than a regular bike, the chair runs narrow, high pressure tyres.

I did run a test on the dyno with a Mac motor, and the controller at 50% throttle. The system efficiency peaked at somewhere around 75%, the same setup at 100% throttle, had a peak efficiency of ~83%. More exhaustive tests, at lower loads, or maybe with a different motor, different controller type, might reveal that the efficiency is less effected, than I noted. Frankly I was quite surprised by what I recorded, yet it doesn't seem to be something that most people are even aware of.

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

..... no pedaling numbers are easy to get (I feel so weird not pedaling! almost like I am doing something wrong, that and my butt gets sore easier :wink: )
I was able to get low Wh/Mile, but my butt was wishing for my recumbent after about an hour! :wink:

.. maybe you should get one of these seats from Day 6 .. ?
http://www.day6bikes.com/photo-gallery/#

Ya, that is a nice seat!

I still prefer my hammock on wheels tho!

The best part about my Vision R40 (E) is that it's built more like a hammock, even the seat has you suspended between the main bike frame with it's own "suspension" in that there is enough give that the bumps that get past my balloon tires are absorbed by the seat mainly.

 

[Hillhater]

.....I still prefer my hammock on wheels tho! ..

Sure,....but i thought you were complaining about the Bronco seat ?
...the Day 6 seat is a straight swap fit onto the Bronco....not so easy for the hammock ! :wink:

 

[dogman dan]

That's a great wh/mi number,, but I hardly see how speed did not play into that. 12 mph cruise, I might get that too,, I just rarely go lower than 15 mph, and then it's generally for a large mountain climb.

But for sure,, your setup should be more efficient at 12 mph than a straight up hub motor. Even on the flat, you'd be able to have a higher motor rpm.

I find it hard to believe that PWM losses are so great it matters a lot. but get motor rpm into 80% efficiency vs 75%,, you bet. One reason I rarely travel less than 15 mph, is because below that hubbies get shitty efficiency, even with lighter loads. In general, I like 18 mph best. Good hub motor efficiency, and slow enough to do well on drag too.

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

.....I still prefer my hammock on wheels tho! ..

Sure,....but i thought you were complaining about the Bronco seat ?
...the Day 6 seat is a straight swap fit onto the Bronco....not so easy for the hammock ! :wink:

Yes indeed!

I am right there with ya, but as the Bronco (E-Zilla) is more for "show and tell" and hopefully soon I will have my recumbent back on the road (once things slow down a bit!), and if we replaced that seat, it would definitely be more comfortable with the Day 6, but I would have to convince Al, my partner in that venture, and might not fit the look of the bike. :wink:

That bike is fun, but I really miss my Vision R40(E)!

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

That's a great wh/mi number,, but I hardly see how speed did not play into that. 12 mph cruise, I might get that too,, I just rarely go lower than 15 mph, and then it's generally for a large mountain climb.

But for sure,, your setup should be more efficient at 12 mph than a straight up hub motor. Even on the flat, you'd be able to have a higher motor rpm.

I find it hard to believe that PWM losses are so great it matters a lot. but get motor rpm into 80% efficiency vs 75%,, you bet. One reason I rarely travel less than 15 mph, is because below that hubbies get shitty efficiency, even with lighter loads. In general, I like 18 mph best. Good hub motor efficiency, and slow enough to do well on drag too.

Agreed!

I also think that the time factor is pretty important, great to get good Wh/Mile numbers, but if you're taking 2 hrs to get there at 9 Wh/Mile VS 30 min. at 20 MPH+ then I would do the latter, and just charge at my destination if needed.

The Cro Motor is very interesting, it seems to do very well at partial throttle, I watch my CA pretty closely, and I actually see my best numbers just by getting up to a good cruising speed of about 15 MPH average with heavy throttle use initially, and then just cracking it in the right "gear" and I can keep the watts as low as 180 on the flats even with the loaded trailer.

The initial acceleration depending on slope can be around 1600 - 1700 Watts, but that is short lived, and even on a fairly steep short hill, I generally only see around 700Watts on average.

I can hardly wait to now try my Vision R40(E) with the MXUS 3000Watt motor in similar fashion to how I have the E-Zilla set-up!

Hopefully it will also be as efficient at low speeds. 8)

 

[WoodlandHills]

The feet forwards style recumbents are also the easiest bikes to add a fairing. My Lightning P-38 at one time had a clear lexan bubble that covered the entire front of the bike and IIRC it made a big difference in drag reduction with a small weight penalty. Now that I've added the Magic Pie, I probably ought to order another bubble and clamp on the mounts again to see how well it works on an ebike.

With this type bike wearing cleated shoes and using clip-in pedals is mandatory for any ride over a few minutes: it's too tiring to hold your feet out in front of you as well as onto the pedals when you don't ever pedal. I built-up a crankset from some BMX parts with ultra short crank arms, my intention is to move the l/h arm on the square spindle 180* so it hangs down at the same time as the drive side. The short crank arms will keep my dangling feet from hitting the front wheel in slower turns. Basically I'm making footrests out of crank arms as long as I wear cleated sandals or shoes.

The project has been on hold during the heat of the summer, but now that it's cooling, this thread has inspired me to jump back into it again.

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

The feet forwards style recumbents are also the easiest bikes to add a fairing. My Lightning P-38 at one time had a clear lexan bubble that covered the entire front of the bike and IIRC it made a big difference in drag reduction with a small weight penalty. Now that I've added the Magic Pie, I probably ought to order another bubble and clamp on the mounts again to see how well it works on an ebike.

With this type bike wearing cleated shoes and using clip-in pedals is mandatory for any ride over a few minutes: it's too tiring to hold your feet out in front of you as well as onto the pedals when you don't ever pedal. I built-up a crankset from some BMX parts with ultra short crank arms, my intention is to move the l/h arm on the square spindle 180* so it hangs down at the same time as the drive side. The short crank arms will keep my dangling feet from hitting the front wheel in slower turns. Basically I'm making footrests out of crank arms as long as I wear cleated sandals or shoes.

The project has been on hold during the heat of the summer, but now that it's cooling, this thread has inspired me to jump back into it again.

Yeah!

I have a Zipper Bubble fairing that was for an up-right, I need to sell/trade it for something that would go onto my recumbent for sure!

When I rode to the coast, I just remember being tired and hungry most of the time, never really occurred to me about the clip-less pedals being needed to hold your feet up, but I had them and probably just lucked out that way. 8)

 

[Warren]

Here you go. Bill is way too humble. He rides the hell out of just about anybody on here, and at amazing efficiency. He could never run for president.

http://mrbill.homeip.net/bikeBlog.php?2014#effortlessRides.2014.08

 

[drew12345]

Whoa, this guy rides a lot. Very inspiring!