Gas powered electric motor

[Philistine]

yes, watt hours, i've never heard anyone here use watt minutes, or watt seconds, so i thought that would be pretty safe to assume, when referring to pack capacity

We were talking at cross purposes, and I concede that I was making a rather pointlessly subjective point (ie, that 3kw has always been enough power in my experience, and 20ah of battery when producing that power has always been enough range), I concede it was a rather pointlessly subjective point to make (as I then later noted, for all i know you need to go 100km, as it turns out it is 60km), but it must be said that I made a reference to watts. You then made a reference to Watts in reference to my reference. [Deleted]

 

[ptd]

ya, ya, i know i'm likely to get stopped, and i don't expect the discussions to be all that interesting.

cop; hey, you know why i stopped you?
me; uh, maybe
cop; well what do you think?
me; should i really answer that?
cop; are you getting smart with me?
me; ya, should i dumb it down a little for ya?

ok, maybe i was wrong, it could be interesting, lol, and what's a revolution without a little blood. i like to think that maybe the courts could be enlightened. ya, i know, but one can dream, right? here in the good ol usa, we got this federal law, HR727, that says if it's under 750 watts (i don't know how you aussies put up with 200, that's just ridiculous), and less than 20 mph capable, motored, then it's not a motor vehicle. and i think there's a pretty good case to be made that the ICE is the fuel source, not the motive source. yes, i know, it's also a pretty easy case to say it's somehow powered by the ICE, too. and you're right, i'm not convinced that courts are interested all that much in justice, compared to fine money. might be more than just a little blood.

as for the sound, ya, exhaust isn't the only culprit, but i doubt very seriously that we've optimised mufflers. i happen to think that we're actually very close to finding new shapes and processes. i keep looking at mathematical sculptures, and thinking, there's gotta be a way for all that surface area to dissipate heat and cause wavelength cancellation. it's also, btw, great for battery technology. i bet somebody trips on it soon. i've seen work done with some type of material, that's like a motor mount, actually it was attached to the fins, that seemed like it worked quite a bit. you also have to consider the intake.

i guess the stealth option would be fun, messin with the cops. just carry enough lipo (was going to have some anyways) for a couple minutes worth of cruise, and turn the motor off when you see'em. might not work so great with the park rangers though, lol.

hillhater...that's what i was tryin to say about batteries, but i still think i can say, it took me 200 watts to get to so and so, and anyone would know i was saying watt hrs, but when you say, it took me 2.5 amp hrs to do that, it doesn't mean much unless i know the other half of the equation.

as for the range extender topics, any links (or keywords) off the top of your head? i'll proably go strictly battery, but i like trying to figure out puzzles.

and sorry philistine, i just get wound up pretty easy (not to mention i'm runnin around with a few axes to grind, and no stone)

 

[swbluto]

If I were going to add a range extender for long distance, I'd primarily use it for extremely long distance trips as all of the "extended range" trips in my city is at most 30 miles and it's simply most economical and most efficient to add more batteries. Given that, I'd just get a genny and bring it along in a trailer and charge the batteries at "rest stops" (Every 60-80 miles) or I might hook it directly up to the batteries while they're running. If it's a looong distance, anyway, you'll need a trailer to carry your camping equipment.

For the genny, I'd probably just hook up the engine to the wheel somehow and then use the bike's motor as the generator at "rest stops" (with the appropriate set of leads). That set up would save on weight, cost and space.

 

[REdiculous]

[youtube]gWHUUsMZLf0[/youtube]

With a bit of work maybe that idea could be adapted..?

 

[mat h physics]

If Ur asking me to brag on my paper, it's only paper but I do hold a BS. Learned more practical stuff studying tool & die making than any other studies.
Transformers are about 99%eff, and will degrade over time to about 95% before failure. It's been 20yrs, so basic research could say diff, but this is a generalization of what can be expected.
As for a HYBRID aspect, it would be quad inputs: ICE, electric motor, pedal pump, and regen braking pump.

Also considered using a sterling engine and dry ice, but this isn't really practical more of an alt power source.

 

[Whiplash]

Speaking of hydraulics, couldn't you use a hydraulic coupling for regen in the front wheel? I know you could put a motor on the forks or something but this seems far more elegant if it could be done?? Something on the opposite side of the front brake?

 

[ptd]

mat, a couple of questions about transformers, had to do a little research. thanks for feeding the addiction, lol

firstly, is there a way to get this to work with dc? it seems like ac is a requirement, but what if you were using it as a diversion for a power source that was powering down, and you wanted to divert the power from powering the motor, to recharging the battery pack? i get the impression that it results in only one cycle, which would be low in terms frequency. but could you have something like a mosfet switch it on and off for you? kind of emulating ac? maybe redirect it to some kind of temporary cap? and then output at 1/2 the duty cycle? like, double the power for half the time?

secondly, say you had a pair of concentric coils, the inner, able to "slide". the outer, wound in such a way that a variable number of coils would be adjacent to the inner, ie, the "thread (or coil) count" increased or decreased. would this result in an ability to take input, and output the same power (minus the loss of the transformer), just at a different voltage and amperage?

lastly, does the concentric arrangement negate the need for a core? because of a reduction in air gap?

sterling and dry ice, too funny, but you could ditch the ICE and get a fresnel lense, lol

cop; why is your bike smoking?
me; well, it has a tendency to pick up on my bad habits
cop; are you getting smart with me again?

 

[mat h physics]

@whiplash, My concept of a "hydraulic coupling" is a hose connection, so you must have meant pump. Most of my 2wheel exp is in the motorcycle field, and yes 80-100% of braking comes from the front wheel. Here are some apps experimented w/ by yamaha:
http://www.topspeed.com/motorcycles/motorcycle-reviews/yamaha/yamaha-wr450f-2-trac-ar18231.html
http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/269/4240/Motorcycle-Article/Yamaha-R1-Ohlins-2WD-Review.aspx
These hydraulic motors are fixed bent axis piston. The axis can be varied to make an infinite ratio pump(or motor), this would allow an electric input motor to run in it's prime rpm range for eff.

In short, yes it could be done. But w/o an outrunner hyd motor design, I see this as a reduction in eff due to weight and complexity imo. Been trying to conceive an outrunner design, it's harder than it sounds.

\
firstly, is there a way to get this to work with dc? it seems like ac is a requirement, but what if you were using it as a diversion for a power source that was powering down, and you wanted to divert the power from powering the motor, to recharging the battery pack? i get the impression that it results in only one cycle, which would be low in terms frequency. but could you have something like a mosfet switch it on and off for you? kind of emulating ac? maybe redirect it to some kind of temporary cap? and then output at 1/2 the duty cycle? like, double the power for half the time?
secondly, say you had a pair of concentric coils, the inner, able to "slide". the outer, wound in such a way that a variable number of coils would be adjacent to the inner, ie, the "thread (or coil) count" increased or decreased. would this result in an ability to take input, and output the same power (minus the loss of the transformer), just at a different voltage and amperage?
lastly, does the concentric arrangement negate the need for a core? because of a reduction in air gap?

sterling and dry ice, too funny, but you could ditch the ICE and get a fresnel lense, lol

Yes, transformers are AC only. Yes, if you double the voltage the current is halved and vice versa. Yes, DC can be converted to AC for such a purpose, this what the controller does to supply power to most brushless motors(abit obvious for this forum). The alternator in a car creates AC power, which in turn is routed through diodes (one way only) to convert to DC. So if a hub motor is generating AC current, it has to be converted to DC for storage, then returned to AC for consumption. This is what is meant by "stacking inefficiency". From what I remember, to use caps for storing AC two are needed and the charge bounces back and forth between the caps (we used 3 in a exp). The amount of energy stored is not high, and syncing it back for use would be a BIG HURDLE.
The iron core is absolutely necessary, it has to do w/ collapsing magnetic fields(live for physics may know more details). Lamination of the iron (layers of sheet metal) greatly improves the eff. Over time the magnetic forces push and pull so much as to cause physical vibration, creating this sound is a lose of energy. Here is a demo of one of the more interesting things I learned in advanced physics:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCq1u_x07S8&feature=related
Magnetic fields have a square root function in relation to distance, i.e. double the distance get 1/4 of the magnetic flux. So air gaps reduce eff greatly.
An idea I tried to promote @1t was pizza delivery using high cap energy storage, which would be good for about 10-20 miles. When the drives returned to the store, they would park over a charging stations which hold half a transformer. This same charging technique is used for modern rechargeable electric toothbrushes, nothing new. Having worked the #s, it would take about 80lbs of high energy caps to do this.

It's not chocolate and peanut butter, but unique: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNg-aWYcuOQ

 

[ptd]

firstly, is there a way to get this to work with dc? it seems like ac is a requirement, but what if you were using it as a diversion for a power source that was powering down, and you wanted to divert the power from powering the motor, to recharging the battery pack? i get the impression that it results in only one cycle, which would be low in terms frequency. but could you have something like a mosfet switch it on and off for you? kind of emulating ac? maybe redirect it to some kind of temporary cap? and then output at 1/2 the duty cycle? like, double the power for half the time?
secondly, say you had a pair of concentric coils, the inner, able to "slide". the outer, wound in such a way that a variable number of coils would be adjacent to the inner, ie, the "thread (or coil) count" increased or decreased. would this result in an ability to take input, and output the same power (minus the loss of the transformer), just at a different voltage and amperage?
lastly, does the concentric arrangement negate the need for a core? because of a reduction in air gap?

sterling and dry ice, too funny, but you could ditch the ICE and get a fresnel lense, lol

From what I remember, to use caps for storing AC two are needed and the charge bounces back and forth between the caps (we used 3 in a exp). The amount of energy stored is not high, and syncing it back for use would be a BIG HURDLE.

i wasn't thinking it'd be more than a few watts (for the time frame between when the motor was needed, to when it shut off), and i just wanted to send it to the battery, at a more acceptable charge rate.

The iron core is absolutely necessary, it has to do w/ collapsing magnetic fields(live for physics may know more details).
Lamination of the iron (layers of sheet metal) greatly improves the eff.

i was under the impression that the core was more or less a "conduit" for the magnetic flux, necessary in instances of "tall" armatures (ergo, large air gap), and that laminations acted more like a "channel" keeping the flux "aligned" somehow. Seemingly, not so necessary for something like coreless axial flux motors (i presume, because of small air gap), which also, strangely enough, seem to be leading the efficiency forefront (?) (although they're using halbach arrays, so, that could be the difference).

Magnetic fields have a square root function in relation to distance, i.e. double the distance get 1/4 of the magnetic flux. So air gaps reduce eff greatly.

when i said concentric coils, i meant two coils with slightly different diameter, nested. effectively reducing the air gap to near 0 (would THAT negate the need for a core?). also, i should think that the inner coil would be shorther (in a sense that if the end of one coil moved past the end of the other, you might not be utilizing some of the power, somehow).

From what I remember, to use caps for storing AC two are needed and the charge bounces back and forth between the caps (we used 3 in a exp). The amount of energy stored is not high, and syncing it back for use would be a BIG HURDLE.

as to transformer efficiency. i guess the ones i was referring to were the buck or boost type, which look like they operate in the 70-90% range. then i ran across the split-pi, which appears to be 96%. any thoughts on why the same type of unit, combining the two, ends up increasing efficiency? is this the type that you were referring to with the 3 caps?

It's not chocolate and peanut butter, but unique: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNg-aWYcuOQ

LOVE reese's, that george micheal impersonator is at the other end of the spectrum.

 

[DAND214]

SO has anyone figured out if this is a 'gas power electric motor" or a "electric power gas motor"?

 

[Whiplash]

Sorry...

 

[ptd]

This has "locked thread" written all over it...

why is that? the topic is hybrid setup, and my questions are about controller issues, in just such a setup...

 

[Whiplash]

I actually like the idea myself... Just thought others were making fun..

 

[ptd]

oh, ok, new to whole forum thing too. but in an odd way, he has a little point. i think the original author might not be considering a motor that shuts on and off mid transit. mine does, for things like downhill and maybe stoplights. to start it back up, the controller needs the ability to use the generator as a starter (i hate those pesky pull starts), hence, an electric powered (well, started at least) gas motor, lol. it might be more useful to have some type of actuation at or near the lvc (someone mentioned recharging at a rest stop kind of thing), but i can't help but think that less dod would have a positive affect on the battery cycle life, much like the sla in your car. not to mention, in my setup, i now think the power COULD be shipped directly to the motor, through a transformer in the controller, and the battery just becomes a buffer for acceleration and deceleration.

 

[amberwolf]

THe OP basically wants to not use a battery at all, and that's why the gas motor would be used--to run a generator to constantly create the power that would've otherwise been stored in the batteries.

So at least in the OP concept, the generator cannot be used as a starter for the gas motor, as there's nothing to power the generator from.

 

[Whiplash]

THe OP basically wants to not use a battery at all, and that's why the gas motor would be used--to run a generator to constantly create the power that would've otherwise been stored in the batteries.

So at least in the OP concept, the generator cannot be used as a starter for the gas motor, as there's nothing to power the generator from.

AH, I see, so its actually going to run all the time and have NO batteries? You WOULD need a pretty good sized motor in that case (a little more HP than you will be using) and would probably be better off just driving the wheel with the gas engine in that case.. Unless I am off my guess. I was thinking it would be cool just have a small 4 cycle R/C engine with a muffler powering a smallish brush less motor producing maybe 500ish watts continuous to extend your ride. I know that on my bike, that would ALMOST make my distance limitless barring any huge hills and trying to go really fast.....

 

[adobian]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOc1cGdJiw4


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6c3gLLagX8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E31PpB08AV0&playnext=1&list=PL190BBE26451727D1

27lbs, 1000W for 12 hours before refueling.

 

[adobian]

http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/products/modeldetail.aspx?page=modeldetail&section=P2GG&modelname=EU1000i&modelid=EU1000IKN

This one is 29 lbs.

 

[Whiplash]

Yeah really, one of these in a small trailer running a high power charger into the batteries would give basically endless range with. Less than a gallon of gas per day of continuous riding! Sounds cool! Hook up the trailer and get 200+ miles from a gallon @ 30mph!!

 

[ptd]

why trailer ? strip it down, lose half the electronics, put the tank above the top tube, and stick it in the triangle. or just start with an rc generator, with the gx35, for 25 mph and 240 mpg, or the gx50, for 30 mph and 180 mpg.

 

[Whiplash]

I do have a stinker, I just thought one of these quiet little gennys would be a cool way to extend range, and you could turn it off when not needed.. I still think my gas motor spinning the right size outrunner would be a cool way to do it!

 

[ptd]

ok whip, where's our reduc.... inquiring minds...

 

[Miles]

A series Hybrid always stacks inefficiency.

If you're going to have a gasoline engine on the bike, make it power the bike by a chain/gearbox etc.

This gives you the lowest weight, lowest system complexity, highest efficiency, and best performance.

And this doesn't even have batteries

 

[Whiplash]

ok whip, where's our reduc.... inquiring minds...

With baby and work, there has been a LOT less time to work on it, but I will be spinning it up completed this afternoon I think! I will take vids of the action, but it won't be on the bike yet..

 

[JEB]

Would a large 3phase rc motor + centrifigal clutch connected to a ic engine, with the driven motor wired/connected to a smaller 3phase motor driving the bike?

This system works when using 240vac 3phase motors, generating a 3phase from single phase using 2 3phase motors, + a single phase motor connected to the large motor to start it, the large motor generates the extra phase, to power the smaller one.