MattDog said:
Lol.. nope. only 1 Ypedal, i'm weird enough to be one of a kind.
The pack is meant for my customer, so it has to pass my QC before i let it out of my hands !
Headway 48v 10ah - EVcomponents.com
- Thread starter Ypedal
- Start date
Lol.. nope. only 1 Ypedal, i'm weird enough to be one of a kind.
The pack is meant for my customer, so it has to pass my QC before i let it out of my hands !
El_Steak said:
regardless of BMS, imo the headway cells should not be used at 6C if you want them to live a long life.. still early in my testing but 3C is all good, 4C for a few seconds, 5C max with headway cells..
I've got just over 1000km on my 24s1p headway pack. After initial problems getting one low cell to balance everything finally seems good. The 72v BMS is apparently a 100A continuos BMS. You really will have less current available unless all cells reach 3.6+v. My low cell used to only charge to 3.29/3.3 and I'd get cutouts way too early.
I usually run the pack between 0.5c and 2c, but for some stretches on the road where there's no safe spot for cars to go past I open the throttle completely for a good 30 seconds or so. From what I've managed to read off the cycle analyst I pull 3+kw at about 70 volts for those 30 seconds so it's likely around 4c or 5c. 1000km might be too little to tell, but I doubt 5c bursts will hurt the cells.
The real abuser of these cells is HAL9000. He has pulled 473A at 29v out of his cells and they still live. See his thread here about how he managed to blow up his 300A kelly controller with them: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12468
I usually run the pack between 0.5c and 2c, but for some stretches on the road where there's no safe spot for cars to go past I open the throttle completely for a good 30 seconds or so. From what I've managed to read off the cycle analyst I pull 3+kw at about 70 volts for those 30 seconds so it's likely around 4c or 5c. 1000km might be too little to tell, but I doubt 5c bursts will hurt the cells.
The real abuser of these cells is HAL9000. He has pulled 473A at 29v out of his cells and they still live. See his thread here about how he managed to blow up his 300A kelly controller with them: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12468
I’m a new e-biker. I purchased an E-Bikekit with the 36v 10Ah Lifepo4 pack in May of this year. Electric Lance has 1200 trouble free miles on her to date. Based on my need for speed and a few more miles of range I decided to build a 48v pack and add it to the bike. I also wanted to build the pack as a learning experience. I purchased 20 Headway cells (38120s) and two Signalab BMS’s. I built a 48v 10 Ah pack and 12v 10Ah pack with the cells. I installed the 48v pack on my bike and I intend to parallel the 12v pack at a later date.
I have several issues that pertain to this thread that I hope someone can shed some light on for me. In my initial testing, the pack would shut down at 6.5 Ah. Further testing revealed that one of the cells was bad and tripping the BMS LVC. In the process of testing I also replaced the BMS with a different brand prior to finding the bad cell. I have more money than knowledge.
I set up a load test of the batteries by using three 100w light bulbs in series. I connected the bulbs to the pack and to my cycle analyst so I could monitor the batteries while they charged and discharged. My initial test started at a full charge according to my charger. Pack voltage at the start of the test was 54.4v. The three bulbs provided a load of 2.15 amps according to the CA. The batteries discharged until I stopped the test at 8Ah. At 8Ah of discharge the pack voltage was 48.7 volts. Two batteries at 2.7v, three at 2.9v and the rest were 3.0v.
Is this the voltage you would expect at 8Ah’s of discharge?
I am concerned that the charger is not fully charging the pack. When charging a majority of the individual cell reach 3.5v or less not the expected 3.6v to 3.7v. The pack voltage reaches as high as 57v just before the charger shuts off. However, immediately after the charger shuts down the voltage drops down between 53.5 and 54.5v. I notice that the charger turns off as soon one of the red lights on the BMS indicate overcharge of a single cell. No balancing seems to take place. I have left the charger connected for hours after a full charge just to make sure I was not disconnecting the charger prematurely.
Is the battery pack fully charged at 54.4 volts hot off the charger?
Once I finish the light duty cycles to break in the batteries and install the pack back into the bike I was thinking of discharging the pack until LVC, to see if it reaches 10Ah. If I get 10Ah out of the pack that would substantiate a full charge I guess?
What brand of charge is best for a 48v pack of headway batteries?
Thank you in advance for your help.
I have several issues that pertain to this thread that I hope someone can shed some light on for me. In my initial testing, the pack would shut down at 6.5 Ah. Further testing revealed that one of the cells was bad and tripping the BMS LVC. In the process of testing I also replaced the BMS with a different brand prior to finding the bad cell. I have more money than knowledge.
I set up a load test of the batteries by using three 100w light bulbs in series. I connected the bulbs to the pack and to my cycle analyst so I could monitor the batteries while they charged and discharged. My initial test started at a full charge according to my charger. Pack voltage at the start of the test was 54.4v. The three bulbs provided a load of 2.15 amps according to the CA. The batteries discharged until I stopped the test at 8Ah. At 8Ah of discharge the pack voltage was 48.7 volts. Two batteries at 2.7v, three at 2.9v and the rest were 3.0v.
Is this the voltage you would expect at 8Ah’s of discharge?
I am concerned that the charger is not fully charging the pack. When charging a majority of the individual cell reach 3.5v or less not the expected 3.6v to 3.7v. The pack voltage reaches as high as 57v just before the charger shuts off. However, immediately after the charger shuts down the voltage drops down between 53.5 and 54.5v. I notice that the charger turns off as soon one of the red lights on the BMS indicate overcharge of a single cell. No balancing seems to take place. I have left the charger connected for hours after a full charge just to make sure I was not disconnecting the charger prematurely.
Is the battery pack fully charged at 54.4 volts hot off the charger?
Once I finish the light duty cycles to break in the batteries and install the pack back into the bike I was thinking of discharging the pack until LVC, to see if it reaches 10Ah. If I get 10Ah out of the pack that would substantiate a full charge I guess?
What brand of charge is best for a 48v pack of headway batteries?
Thank you in advance for your help.
Redorblack: Sounds interesting ! and thanks for the pictures ! that 20ah pack looks right for EV's etc !! ( can't imagine fitting that on an ebike lol .. but i'm sure i'd try ! )
At the 3.65v mark the cells are as full as they need to be, with a CC-CV charger idealy you would allow the current to taper off and maintain 3.65v per cell, problem is that only a few mah difference in each cell will cause one or more of the cells to reach 3.7 .. 3.8.. 3.9v and at this point the BMS should cut the charger off completely and drain the high voltage cells back down to < 3.65v before allowing the charger to kick back in.. rinse repeat until all cells reach 3.6v
In a perfect world the BMS could bleed off energy as fast or faster than the charger is feeding it into the pack but this is rarely the case..
At the 3.5v mark they are almost fully charged, 3.3~3.4v per cell while charging is the bulk of it..
I got 9ah out of the pack tonight and the BMS still was not cutting in, on the BMX going around the block full throttle, hard braking just enough to get around the corner and full on again 1000w+ .. at 40 amps the voltage was dipping to 40 but kept on comming.. 8)
At the 3.65v mark the cells are as full as they need to be, with a CC-CV charger idealy you would allow the current to taper off and maintain 3.65v per cell, problem is that only a few mah difference in each cell will cause one or more of the cells to reach 3.7 .. 3.8.. 3.9v and at this point the BMS should cut the charger off completely and drain the high voltage cells back down to < 3.65v before allowing the charger to kick back in.. rinse repeat until all cells reach 3.6v
In a perfect world the BMS could bleed off energy as fast or faster than the charger is feeding it into the pack but this is rarely the case..
At the 3.5v mark they are almost fully charged, 3.3~3.4v per cell while charging is the bulk of it..
I got 9ah out of the pack tonight and the BMS still was not cutting in, on the BMX going around the block full throttle, hard braking just enough to get around the corner and full on again 1000w+ .. at 40 amps the voltage was dipping to 40 but kept on comming.. 8)
redorblack
100 W
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Looks like bleeding off some juice while calibrating the CA Rshunt helped, charged back up really quick and didn't do any pulsing that I saw like in my pictures. I'm running the battery down in my kitchen some right now with the front wheel off the ground and the throttle at about 25mph. Drawing about 30 watts unloaded at that speed. This morning the pack was at 55 volts, right where my SLA would be right off the charger with a surface charge on them, but with the Lifepo that was after trying to get them to balance without sucking any juice off, and the pack dropped from 58.4 to 55 overnight. After calibration of the CA, and using up a couple of amp hours of juice doing that, I recharged them, they charged right up to 58.6 and only dropped to 56.4 after sitting. I guess I can put this in the 'conditioning' the battery file.
I don't know if I should be lightly discharging or run it hard and then recharge. I suspect getting it used to current flowing in and out but not killing it is the way to go so the cells equalize.
I don't know if I should be lightly discharging or run it hard and then recharge. I suspect getting it used to current flowing in and out but not killing it is the way to go so the cells equalize.
El_Steak
10 kW
Ypedal said:
Damn, that's pretty much the specs for a Ping 48 volt 15ah (30a continuous, 40a bursts). The Ping is a bit more expensive but includes a decent BMS, a charger and has 50% more capacity (even more I think, I was getting over 16ah real-world capacity out of mine).
BUT... I just sold my Ping pack 2 weeks ago to build a Headway pack! :| Hummm, live and learn.
Still, I think that a 20s2p Headway pack with a GGoodrum/Fechter BMS on a 26inch wheel setup would allow for a pretty good setup with a nice balance between torque and top speed.
the Ping's imo are 1C ok, 2C max, 3C burst... the headway cells are better.. :wink:
It's all relative, you can push packs hard and run them into the ground in 1 year, or you can care for them and make them last.. all depends on your goal.
It's all relative, you can push packs hard and run them into the ground in 1 year, or you can care for them and make them last.. all depends on your goal.
not on an individual cell basis, no, all sealed up inside the box.. :lol: and i'm not willing ot re-open it unless i have to ! :wink:
At the 9ah mark, under 40+ amp load the voltage was dipping into the 38v mark, but at rest the pack voltage floats back up to 48.
Regarding peak charge voltage of 58v, this is normal, the moment the light on the charger goes green and you disconect the pack it will go back down to 54v.. that's all fine and normal as the cells settle back down to 3.3~3.4v on their own.
Regarding peak charge voltage of 58v, this is normal, the moment the light on the charger goes green and you disconect the pack it will go back down to 54v.. that's all fine and normal as the cells settle back down to 3.3~3.4v on their own.
dogman dan
1 PW
Nobody knows how many cycles to expect from a ping at 2c. The headways would be better for 30 amps continuous, but a bigger ping pack yeilds a higher continuous amps. So it gets a bit unfair to compare a 15 or 20 ah ping with a 10 ah headway. 20 ah headway though, should handle a lot. Hopefully they improve the bms very soon.
redorblack
100 W
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- Sep 26, 2009
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The Ev Components site lists the Headway cells as 2.5-3.65v range. After having used the pack and recharging it where the charger cuts off having taken it to 58.4v surface charge...exactly 3.65v per cell, after sitting all night and day it now reads 56.2v. That's 3.51v per cell average.
Should the cells actually reach and stay at 3.65v once used a few times? Or should they be dropping a bit more as the surface charge dissipates? Most Lifepo4 cells are fully charged at 3.3v not 3.65 right? I'm wondering if 3.65 if correct and some people not getting rated capacity are only charged to 54-55v.
Should the cells actually reach and stay at 3.65v once used a few times? Or should they be dropping a bit more as the surface charge dissipates? Most Lifepo4 cells are fully charged at 3.3v not 3.65 right? I'm wondering if 3.65 if correct and some people not getting rated capacity are only charged to 54-55v.
El_Steak
10 kW
Of course,3 Ping pouches in parallel and a single headway cell are completely different animals. That being said, if you look at it from the end-user perspective, it costs 520$ to Ypedal to get his 48v 10ah headway pack to his house. A 48v 15ah Ping pack would cost him about 610$ to get to his house (in Canada). Its a bit more expensive but it does include a 48v charger and it provides over 50% more capacity.
According to Ypedals experience with the pack as he states above, the Headway is good at 3c (30 amps) continuous and 4c (40 amps) for a few seconds. That is exactly the specs of the Ping 48v 15ah pack, hence my comparison. This is also the way I ran my Ping pack this summer on my 35 amps controller and I think Doctorbass did the same thing with the 6 or 7 bikes he built for his family.
Anyways, it was not my intention to turn this thread into a Ping vs Headway thing. I am just disappointed to see that my hopes of a light 10ah pack able to do 50 amps continuous appear to be unrealistic in real use. If you put 2 Headway cells in parallel, then it's a whole different story though
According to Ypedals experience with the pack as he states above, the Headway is good at 3c (30 amps) continuous and 4c (40 amps) for a few seconds. That is exactly the specs of the Ping 48v 15ah pack, hence my comparison. This is also the way I ran my Ping pack this summer on my 35 amps controller and I think Doctorbass did the same thing with the 6 or 7 bikes he built for his family.
Anyways, it was not my intention to turn this thread into a Ping vs Headway thing. I am just disappointed to see that my hopes of a light 10ah pack able to do 50 amps continuous appear to be unrealistic in real use. If you put 2 Headway cells in parallel, then it's a whole different story though
BLUESTREAK
1 kW
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- May 10, 2009
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- 470
I want one of those 72 volt 20 amp headway packs from (EVC) to run my 72 volt 50 amp crystalyte controller with a new x5306 but now i am worrried about their BMS.
I am defiantly not getting full capacity out of the pack I built from headway cells. I tested the bike today and it cut out at 8.5Ah. I ordered some single cell charges and intend to charge each cell individually to see if that will make a difference. I have tried two different BMS’s and neither seemed to balanced the pack.
redorblack
100 W
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- Sep 26, 2009
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BLUESTREAK said:
The cells would only be at 2.5C maxed out using a 20 amp pack with that controller. I suspect that since the 10ah packs are cutting out in the 35 amp range, that a 20ah pack bms would probably be cutting in around 70 amps, more than your controller can/would deal with.
Sounds like a fast and powerful combo, but that is 37+ pounds in battery, not bad if your replacing lead acid or are building a small electric motorcycle... bit heavy for a bike.
BLUESTREAK
1 kW
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IT'S A SCHWINN MERIDIAN TRIKE 26IN .WHEELS STREACHED OUT 12IN. LONGER AND SEAT MOVED BACK AND DOWN TO 26IN FROM GROUND AND A REAR SUSPENSION HANDLES PERFECT AND IS BEAUTYFULL, PICTURES COMMING SOON I HOPE. 
patrickza said:
I originally used a Signalab BMS I purchased from All –Battery.com. While trying to sort out a previous problem (bad cell) I changed to a BMS I purchased from Kennedy Alternative Energy which I believe is a Headway BMS. At cruising speed I am using around 15 amps, my CA shows a maxA of 30. The bike has a 30 amp controller. The charger I also purchased from KAE. The charger has no brand name on it but it does put our 58v when charging but it does not seem to balance the cells. I have looked from low cell while trouble shooting my previous problem and found just the one. I am going the pull the pack off the bike and start testing for weak cells again. The BMS shuts down the pack at 48v which I think is high. Any suggestions you have would be appreciated.
BLUESTREAK
1 kW
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HOWDY FOLKS: Someone today told me that if you use all capital letters that means your are mad. Sorry about that i am not mad just DUMB I am 65 yrs young and until about a year ago i had never touched a computer in my life. please bare with me. COOPER
voicecoils
1 MW
BLUESTREAK said:HOWDY FOLKS: Someone today told me that if you use all capital letters that means your are mad. Sorry about that i am not mad just DUMB I am 65 yrs young and until about a year ago i had never touched a computer in my life. please bare with me. COOPER
No worries
I've always been told all capital letters meant you were SHOUTING :lol:
dogman dan
1 PW
Heh heh, that trike sounds like something to shout about.
Re El Steak, yeah, at first it sounded like a 10 ah headway pack would power up an x5 with 50 amps, but then reality settles in, and you realize that for really high amps like above 35, you'd be best with 20 ah of headways. Time to learn to use the lipoly I guess If you want a battery to do 5c. Those headway cells and a 30 amp controler might work ok though, or limit amps with the ca.
Re capacity, Doesn't capacity drop a lot when you get above 1c? The capacity is measured at 1c right? So you would expect to lose some capacity if you are running a 30 amp controller on a 10 ah pack.
Re El Steak, yeah, at first it sounded like a 10 ah headway pack would power up an x5 with 50 amps, but then reality settles in, and you realize that for really high amps like above 35, you'd be best with 20 ah of headways. Time to learn to use the lipoly I guess If you want a battery to do 5c. Those headway cells and a 30 amp controler might work ok though, or limit amps with the ca.
Re capacity, Doesn't capacity drop a lot when you get above 1c? The capacity is measured at 1c right? So you would expect to lose some capacity if you are running a 30 amp controller on a 10 ah pack.
redorblack
100 W
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- Sep 26, 2009
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dogman said:
There is a term for that effect, I think it's more prevalent in SLA batteries, per.... something effect. Capacity is measured at 1C unless someone is faking it to make their numbers look better. Thought struck me that rating them at their max continuous amp rating might be nice, but then you'd have a harder time comparing how much is actually stored in batteries with different C ratings. We all know that when you draw it off harder, you get less. I think someone had a chart posted for giving an idea of how bad the effect was with different cells.
