Instant Start 18 fet Infineon Boards are here...

Hi Methods,

I can't find the post I read it in but if I remember correctly he uses a freshly charged D cell with the + connected the ground wire through a 0.1 ohm resistor. The current flows through the shunt and then through the internal diodes in the MOSFETS and out through one of the phase wires.
I seem to remember someone saying that they used a camera to record the current and voltage as they changed and then averaged the results.
 
Yes, thats the post.
Not the most accurate way in my humble opinion but it will work fine.
It is convenient if you don't want to open the case.

-methods
 
I don't have a CA so will need to open the case anyway, am only calibrating to get the software current limit accurate. Is there a better method with the case open?
 
Better is a matter of opinion.
For me, I like to reduce the chance of error stack-up so here is how I do it:

* Wire in the CA tap to your controller
* Hook up a power source to your controller - your battery is fine but a constant voltage supply is will supply more consistent readings.
* Power on the controller and confirm that everything is working.

* Set the controller board on the table. Be extra, extra, extra careful not to set the board on any of the screws or random pieces of metal.

At this point, what I do is a little Ghetto, but you will get the idea.
Basically I short the +V buss through an ammeter and a load to ground through the shunt.

* Hook an alligator clip to the +V buss
* Run that clip to your load. In my case it is a big oil heater. There are 2 switches and 3 modes.
The "hottest" mode gives me 10 ohms and 2KW power handling. I attach to the load by simply clipping the aligator lead right on to the plug.
* Hook another alligator lead to the other prong of the plug (or other end of the load) and run that into the positive input of your ammeter.
* Run the negative input of your ammeter to a banana style terminator (or something that can be used to "poke")

At this point I fire up my spreadsheet (downloaded here). The spreadsheet has a column for Control (ammeter reading) and Measured (CA measurement).
You enter into the spread sheet the starting value in the CA. For simplicity, lets say you set it to 1mOhm.

* Get everything ready. Turn on the Ammeter, open the spreadsheet (so you can write down the numbers before you forget), turn on the CA.
* Set the ammeter right next to the CA so that you can easily read both.

Here is the sketchy part:

* Poke the lead that is exiting the ammeter into the PHASE side of the current shunt. This will force the current to run through the shunt.
* Watch the readings on the Ammeter. As soon as they settle record the reading on the ammeter and the CA for the same moment in time.

This is where you want a constant supply voltage. If you have one the only variation you will see are heating affects of your cabling.

* Fill in the spreadsheet with the ammeter reading and the CA reading.

You will be given a %difference calculation and the spreadsheet then tells you what the new value is for the CA.
Lets say it was .865 mOhms.

* Enter the new CA value into the CA.

* "Poke" the probe on the phase side of the shunt again and take another measurement. These should be within a few percent.
* Enter the numbers in the spreadsheet and read off the new CA value.
* This value will be within a percent or two. Repeat if you have OCD.

The reason I like this method is because you read the current straight from the horses mouth.
Nothing gives me a warm fuzzy like seeing 10.65A on the ammeter and seeing 10.65A on the CA.
If you see this, there is no doubt that you have done everything correctly.

If, on the other hand you use a method that involves reading the voltage from the CA tap (or worse... please dont say reading the voltage right off the shunt :roll: ) there is an entire new set of errors introduced. The error of the voltage reading, the possible probing error (in the case where people read directly off the shunt instead of at the taps), etc.

I am just that kind of engineer though... Any time I can prove that something works directly I will always take that approach over an analytical approach. I know that mathmatically measuring the voltage at the CA tap and computing the resistance with Ohms law is just as valid... It just does not take into account any "funny business" inside the CA.

You could employ a hybrid of my method and Justin's method. The biggest problem with my method is that the larger battery voltage forces you to run a larger load.... like a MUCH larger load. The inductance of that load can come back to bite you, but that is another story.

Some small part of me also feels better about reading the current coming from applying 100V instead of the current coming from 12V.... I know there should be no difference but then I also know that all sorts of stray currents are running around in the circuit. At 100V there simply must be small offsets here and there that could affect things. I guess in my mind I am convinced that I am better approximating the real system response.

This is just my method though.
There are many methods that are equally valid.
Mine is actually much more dangerous :mrgreen:

-methods
 
Thanks for that very detailed reply Methods.
It now looks like Geoff is going to supply my board ready calibrated to your .25 mOHM setting.

Shunt calibration is very important and I think people here should have some idea how to do it. Your post makes things a lot clearer.
Its dangerous to assume that the shunt is what the manufacturer says it is, I recently melted my 12 fet infineon even though the current limit was set to only 40 amps. Wish I'd calibrated that shunt now. :(
 
hi
mike if you got that 12 fet from keywin then we cannot be sure just how well it has been set up keywin is not an Ebiker by his own admission. he just builds and ships at a cheap price.
we have to check them ourselves somewhere between keywin and the bike the amp cut off should be tested, they still work out at very good value controllers.
mike did you have a controller with a M shaped shunt in it,had you added any solder to the shunt?

Methods ti is time to start a 81 fet kit building thread in the Technical Reference Area where only gurus can post that way we can keep the posts to usfull information and keep this thread for feedback I have to build one and have time on my hands so i can document as I go, both you and me can post there and several others this would act as a manual for building the 18 fet from a kit. You should start it as you have done most of the work in getting these controllers from keywin I told him to get instant start 18 fet controllers in on skype but have no money to back it up just that i have looked at the forum and that is what they want YOU had come along with the moneya week before and forced keywins hand, he was testing one of the first of the controllers at the time i was on line with him.

So get that threat started Methods start with an introduction post then add a post on the size of 3K resistor to fit in place of the three 1K surface mounted RS11, RS12, RS13
resistors, I have a good idea of how to mount it, but I know you have decided on a final way and wattage size.

Geoff
 
Geoff, yes I had the M shaped shunts, and no I didn't add any solder to them. The traces were already beefed up to a small extent but he missed the corners and also where the bottom of the shunt is connected. That is where mine failed, the solder melted under the shunt creating a blob that shorted to the case, another blob formed somewhere else and one set of fets exploded before a track melted at a corner. I've repaired the tracks and changed the blown fets but it looks like some driver component went as well and I haven't had time to look yet, and these components are so much smaller than I remember from my electronics days (20 years ago :( )
 
I have detailed pictures of every step of the build.
I suppose I could take a few hours this week and start an instructional build thread.

Maybe tonight I will collect all the pictures and put them in order.
It would be nice to have a thread strictly for technical information.

I actually prefer my personal threads to go off topic but I can see where it would be frustrating for someone looking for info :mrgreen:

-methods
 
hi
methods for most threads going off subject is fine in fact is a good idea somtimes BUT the reason I said put it in the Technical Reference Area was to make a thread as a Manual for making the controllers, clear and to the point with no neet to trawl through pages of off thread info, you keep this thread for that or start a new thread as the public reply thread for the manual, THAT thread can go as off topic as it likes it is not an instruction guide.
People can ask questions in the public thread and the answers will be posted there or as refrences to places in the "manual" thread.
where the "manual" thread has a post that someone cannot understand we can decide if it should be changed to make it clearer.

this is a specil type of thread a concentrated information thread not the normal type we have.

Geoff

PS what whattage resistor do i need to replace RS11 RS12 RS13 I am about to place an order with my electronic supplyer and I need to know what wattage to get I know it is 3K ohm.
 
I used 2W resistors. You would probably be wise to step it up to a 3W.

I dont remember off hand, but what is it - like 30mA running through there at 100V?

(100V - 0.7V - 14V) / 3k = I = ~28mA

I^2 * R = W
30mA ^2 * 3k = 2.7W

So technically speaking you should run at least a 3W resistor.
We are running 800W motors at 8KW so I am sure that running a 2W resistor at 2.7W wont hurt a bit :mrgreen: \

To do it right though, choose a 3W resistor and mount it with airflow all around it.

-methods

P.S. I agree about the technical section. I will do it tonight.
 
hi
I will get some very high res pics taken of the boards straight out of the box and post them so people can download to ask questions with.

if we enlarge this to the 116 chip controllers then i can include the new 12 fet controllers with the same chip I have those and am studying them.

thanks for the info on the resistor.

Geoff
 
methods said:
So technically speaking you should run at least a 3W resistor.
We are running 800W motors at 8KW so I am sure that running a 2W resistor at 2.7W wont hurt a bit :mrgreen: \
Hey Method.. i'm sure you dont run 8000W CONTINUOUS in your motor?.. :p :wink:

The 3K receive CONTINUOUSLY 3W.. that's not good compare!

Seriously in my controller i've installes 3K resistor AND had put kapton and flameproof white tubes on the wires around the resistor.. I dont want the insulation of the resistor to melt and short something!

at 3W that resistor wil have a temp over 200 degree C... wire insulation usually is 125 or 85 degree C...

But if you use great tie rap to attach the wires around it should be ok..

Doc
 
Doctorbass said:
methods said:
So technically speaking you should run at least a 3W resistor.
We are running 800W motors at 8KW so I am sure that running a 2W resistor at 2.7W wont hurt a bit :mrgreen: \
Hey Method.. i'm sure you dont run 8000W CONTINUOUS in your motor?.. :p :wink:

The 3K receive CONTINUOUSLY 3W.. that's not good compare!

Seriously in my controller i've installes 3K resistor AND had put kapton and flameproof white tubes on the wires around the resistor.. I dont want the insulation of the resistor to melt and short something!

at 3W that resistor wil have a temp over 200 degree C... wire insulation usually is 125 or 85 degree C...

But if you use great tie rap to attach the wires around it should be ok..

Doc


When you insulate a resistor, it still has to dissipate the same amount of energy. Anything you do to cover the resistor de-rates it's power handling ability. Your resistor that may appear cooler on the outside may be running at double the temperature, and conducting much more of it's heat into your circuit board to cool rather than being able to conduct that energy into the air around it, or radiate it. When you insulate a resistor, you are making that resistor a potential failure point.

Want to know how to make a 1w resistor into a 3w resistor? Mount it with as much of the legs sticking up as possible, and then solder a 1" piece of bare copper 14awg stranded wire to each side, with the wire strands flared out to maximize contact area with the air around it. Easily can more than tripple the power rating of a resistor. Or, you can turn a 3w resistor into a 1w resistor by throwing a blanket of insulation over it, so it's only way to remove the thermal energy it's generating is to conduct it into the traces of the circuit board it's connected to.
 
liveforphysics said:
So technically speaking you should run at least a 3W resistor.
We are running 800W motors at 8KW so I am sure that running a 2W resistor at 2.7W wont hurt a bit :mrgreen: \
Hey Method.. i'm sure you dont run 8000W CONTINUOUS in your motor?.. :p :wink:

The 3K receive CONTINUOUSLY 3W.. that's not good compare!

Seriously in my controller i've installes 3K resistor AND had put kapton and flameproof white tubes on the wires around the resistor.. I dont want the insulation of the resistor to melt and short something!

at 3W that resistor wil have a temp over 200 degree C... wire insulation usually is 125 or 85 degree C...

But if you use great tie rap to attach the wires around it should be ok..

When you insulate a resistor, it still has to dissipate the same amount of energy. Anything you do to cover the resistor de-rates it's power handling ability. Your resistor that may appear cooler on the outside may be running at double the temperature, and conducting much more of it's heat into your circuit board to cool rather than being able to conduct that energy into the air around it, or radiate it. When you insulate a resistor, you are making that resistor a potential failure point.

Want to know how to make a 1w resistor into a 3w resistor? Mount it with as much of the legs sticking up as possible, and then solder a 1" piece of bare copper 14awg stranded wire to each side, with the wire strands flared out to maximize contact area with the air around it. Easily can more than tripple the power rating of a resistor. Or, you can turn a 3w resistor into a 1w resistor by throwing a blanket of insulation over it, so it's only way to remove the thermal energy it's generating is to conduct it into the traces of the circuit board it's connected to.

Maybe i not explained corrrectly, let me correct that:

I said that i insulated the wires.. not the resistors :wink: I know physics law and heat dissipations principles..

The way i do to better dissipate the resistor heat is to keep legs as long as possible and i make a little 1/4" dia spring with the leg on each end of it.. the heat dissipate in the air before to heat the board.. but i keep a great lengh on a good surface of the board on the trace under it to use the larger trace to add surface too.

What i meant is about protecting littles wires around the resistors.. like current sence, Vcc, switch, etc..

I have to say that my heavy polished copper busbar that sink the heat from the mosfet to the case work perfect!

It take very short time to transfer heat to the case!.. and they cool very fast!.. ( on my 15kW drag setup)

that make the controller very heavy because of the weight of the cooper instead of aluminum but it really worth it!

Doc
 
I'm not worried about it.

-methods
 
anyone have the program in c++ or similar, would be nice to mess with the variables a bit if possible
would keywin share it?
 
You been following the thread?
The entire program was already posted in VB.

Easier than C++.... I am sure you know that de-compiled C++ has name mangling that will make you want to kill yourself.
VB is written in a retarded sort of way that makes it easy to re-work.

Even easier, why dont you just sniff the bit stream as it flashes the chip
I am positive that it will be some sort of plain-text

Sniff the stream into a file
Parse it out
Make changes
then music-box it back out.

Classic hack :D

-methods
 
must have missed it, will go back find it, tried decompiling not much help, all this programming stuff new to me
 
I don't know if this was mentioned before, but the "Bar Protect" option in the parameter designer software is actually a throttle fault protection feature. If your throttle cuts off when close to it's full position, then deactivate this option to get it functioning normaly. Gotta love these funny translations!

Now I just have to figure out what the "Tolerance(V)", "Guard Level", and "1:1 Design" options do...
 
Doc, Methods,

I haven't got my kit yet (come on Geoff before the wife spends the money on something else :) ) so I am trying to figure something out from your photos.
You've added plenty of extra copper to the bottom of the board but as far as I can tell four of the low side fets are connected to GND by tracks on the top of the board. Is this a potential weak spot?

Mike.
 
Mike1 said:
Doc, Methods,

I haven't got my kit yet (come on Geoff before the wife spends the money on something else :) ) so I am trying to figure something out from your photos.
You've added plenty of extra copper to the bottom of the board but as far as I can tell four of the low side fets are connected to GND by tracks on the top of the board. Is this a potential weak spot?

Mike.


I dont think so.. the trace seems ok for high current.

I renforced ANY trace from the fet to the ground and the fet to the positive and tried to make it to acheive a great current share between every 3 parallel mosfet to make them driving the same amount of current and avoiding one of those to drive more than others and heat and becoming a weak spot..

Doc
 
Thanks Doc, I guessed the tracks on the top might be big enough already but I haven't got a board to look at yet. I plan to get some copper plate (maybe 2 or 3mm) and machine it to the shape of the tracks, either that of get some 3mm square copper rod and bend it to shape. Just need to figure out how I'm going to fix it on, may be too heavy to solder.
 
ZapPat said:
I don't know if this was mentioned before, but the "Bar Protect" option in the parameter designer software is actually a throttle fault protection feature. If your throttle cuts off when close to it's full position, then deactivate this option to get it functioning normaly. Gotta love these funny translations!

Now I just have to figure out what the "Tolerance(V)", "Guard Level", and "1:1 Design" options do...

Nice Pat :wink:

Thanks! I will have to try that one out.

-methods
 
Mike1 said:
Doc, Methods,

I haven't got my kit yet (come on Geoff before the wife spends the money on something else :) ) so I am trying to figure something out from your photos.
You've added plenty of extra copper to the bottom of the board but as far as I can tell four of the low side fets are connected to GND by tracks on the top of the board. Is this a potential weak spot?

Mike.

I agree - that is a very wide trace.
You could beef it up if that is your thing, but I would not worry too much.

The "hidden trace" on the xlyte boards was much worse.

-methods
 
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