Interesting new E-bike battery coming from AmpedBikes
- Thread starter Russell
- Start date
liveforphysics
100 TW
Lithium Cobalt.
It only needs about half the space and half the weight of LiFePO4.
If they just filled it with 40 x 18650 2.5Ah cells, that would be a bit of a let-down though.
It only needs about half the space and half the weight of LiFePO4.
If they just filled it with 40 x 18650 2.5Ah cells, that would be a bit of a let-down though.
mwkeefer
1 MW
Lithium Cobalt blend?
Luke - correct me if I am wrong but by nature this must be a Lithium Cobalt Oxide base?
If that is correct... um, were basically talking 3 generations back of lithium when the Cobalt oxide would reach critical temp and thermal runaway would release the excess oxygen as the decarboxolyzation process took place - ie: solid rocket booster?
Please tell me I am wrong?
-Mike
Luke - correct me if I am wrong but by nature this must be a Lithium Cobalt Oxide base?
If that is correct... um, were basically talking 3 generations back of lithium when the Cobalt oxide would reach critical temp and thermal runaway would release the excess oxygen as the decarboxolyzation process took place - ie: solid rocket booster?
Please tell me I am wrong?
-Mike
Russell
1 MW
A few months ago Panasonic was mentioned as the manufacturer which would provide AmpedBikes with a fast-charge battery module. Panasonic is into batteries and e-bikes in a big way so I doubt it's old tech but we'll have to wait for details.
-R
-R
mwkeefer
1 MW
Russell said:
Russell - I hate doing this because I fear there will begin to develop some antimosity between us and despite my strong opinions I am purely motivated by integrity, honor and quality of a product and their manufacturer - I'm also a very picky about proper specs and tech data.
To begin I have no personal problem with Danny Ray or his very endearing wife Lisa - my only experience so far was a wheel I ordered when these were first announced which 1.5 weeks later I received a follow up email about a technical issue with the order, an appology and a refund -- not much more I could ask from a vendor than to be honest (mostly) and take responsibility to correct it - I still have one order pending where I got no response but to his defense I haven't written him yet in regards to that order (neither were in my name).
The quote you reference to is from Danny Ray's own forum entry posted on Sat Aug 08, 2009 1:30 am: "We are now working with panasonic for a fast charge battery module"
The "panasonic" battery in question is not made by panasonic but by one of dozens of china manufacturers using Panasonic cells -
"36V/9Ah lithium-ion with Panasonic electric cell" is the exact reference to them from Danny's site.
Here is another import eBike with the same pack (they rate at 9.6-8 AH at beginning of life so 10AH isn't too wide a stretch):
http://www.made-in-china.com/showroom/jitime/product-detailmoQJlZujarUK/China-Lithium-Battery-Foldable-Electric-Bicycle.html
Actually... I have sample requested and bulk pricing - they are BAFANG 8FUN claimed 250w but at 36v they would be 350, looks to be interesting depnding on bulk pricing.
In either case, I would love to see some new batteries (love the shape, could disguise as water bottle).
I will be happy to test / evaluate (and likely will) any and all of AmpedBikes motors or batteries as I will do with any other vendor - but I am brutally honest and if it's a POS... it's going to be called a POS!
-Mike
Russell
1 MW
mwkeefer said:
Mike,
People speaking honestly on this board will never offend me. I know there are some folks on this board with a clear bias towards one vendor or another and that's to be expected however I try to be as impartial as possible and I wish them all success especially if it brings us consumers better products. As for the distinction of whether the product is "made by Panasonic", I didn't say it was, and the latest info from the Amped site has no further info than what you see on the pics above.
I do find this batttery to be interesting for a couple of reasons; first it is truly low weight, second, it mounts and unmounts from the center triangle which not only results in better weight distribution but frees up the rear rack. This design isn't as attractive as the first battery box Danny Ray showed on his site however as you say the cylindrical design does make it look like a water botttle and the final product should look better too. The thing I'm most anxious to find out is how it performs. Since I'm unlikely to buy one myself right away I look forward to a review by an E-S member when it eventually arrives. One thing it has made me think about is a lightweight e-bike build using a tiny geared motor and this battery 8)
-R
liveforphysics said:Lithium Cobalt.
It only needs about half the space and half the weight of LiFePO4.
If they just filled it with 40 x 18650 2.5Ah cells, that would be a bit of a let-down though.
panasonic 2.9Ah A-size LiCo have been out in laptops long enuf now for them to find their way onto ebay.
if those are old news then panny's latest might be 3.2 or more amp-hours.
i just don't understand how stuffing cells into a water bottle or a tube is patentable.
lotsa people were doing that back with NiMH, it's pretty much public domain by now.
dogman dan
1 PW
The specific design of a battery case could be patentable, long as it's original.
Looks like it could be very nice, if the c rate is high enough. Lighter is good.
Looks like it could be very nice, if the c rate is high enough. Lighter is good.
ecowheelz
100 W
I'm no battery expert or chemist - but isn't Li-Cobalt highly unstable and flamable? Isn't this the same chemistry that was used in laptops and cell phones that got a bunch of "heat" because it was a fire hazard?
Maybe this isn't the same and it's some type of variance of the Li-Cobalt chemistry?
Maybe this isn't the same and it's some type of variance of the Li-Cobalt chemistry?
Russell
1 MW
ecowheelz said:
LiCoO2 batteries are still in wide use in many such devices because of their high energy density though they are often simply referred to using the general term "Li-ion". I suppose though if the battery passes UN38.3 (UN Transportation Test for Dangerous Goods) then it's good to go :? In any event I would think they are safer than the hobby packs many folks are using, but then I'm no expert either.
-R
mwkeefer
1 MW
Russell said:
The UN38.3 is not really applicable to the safety of LiCo based lithium ion cobalt batteries when in use, only durring shipping -
The danger with these come from over charging (even slightly), over discharge, temperatures - ie left in sun and thermal run away due to oxygen or moisture trapped inside the cells durring manufacture. These batteries are used in all forms of portable electronic although the newer trend is actually normal Lithium Polymer but they are single cell and managed by dedicated power management IC chips with very low failure rate -even still they have explosions (see exploding laptops (bad BMS), exploding ipods and iPhones, etc).
The UN38.3 rating simply means that if packaged properly these will not explode on their own without physical damage and also provides the UN certified HAZMAT certification for the purpose of fire fighting, class 9 hazmat (that's LiCo) has to be extinguished with halon, foam or other non water based (cat litter works) material or the chain reaction will cause the fire to become worse (more intense)... the rating has no effect on safety of charge or discharge - the chemistry is just as dangerous as always.
WIth regards to fast charging... Toshiba SCIB has the corner on this at the moment in a commercial form however... my newest designed LiPo packs of 10AH can be charged in as little as 40 minutes from empty and there is still room to increase a level of C to charge them in 20-25 minutes and for about 1/10th the cost of the toshiba SCIB.
---
On a lighter note: I really hope this wasn't the warehouse these batteries were stored in:
[youtube]dfQwYKqmfk4[/youtube]
-Mike
Russell
1 MW
mwkeefer said:
Dude, that is low :|
-R
Doctorbass
100 GW
What not to forgot is what is the power capability of that battery??
Liveforphysics said 40 cells.. that make sense to me.. but usually 36V lithium cell require 10s ( 37V nominal and 42 full charged)
so 10s and 4p is the probable answer...
these High energy LiCo cells are capable of only 1.5C max continuous when staked very close ( heat management)
assuming that's 10Ah.. it's 2.4Ah cells or 2.6Ah cells.. the most availlable now for laptop or tesla radster...
let say 2.5Ah.. again like Liveforphysics said... so 10Ah at 1.5C is only 15A max discharge
at 37V nominal it's 555W max
and 370Wh for 4.14lbs ( 1.88kg !!) = 196Wh per kg !
Doc
Liveforphysics said 40 cells.. that make sense to me.. but usually 36V lithium cell require 10s ( 37V nominal and 42 full charged)
so 10s and 4p is the probable answer...
these High energy LiCo cells are capable of only 1.5C max continuous when staked very close ( heat management)
assuming that's 10Ah.. it's 2.4Ah cells or 2.6Ah cells.. the most availlable now for laptop or tesla radster...
let say 2.5Ah.. again like Liveforphysics said... so 10Ah at 1.5C is only 15A max discharge
at 37V nominal it's 555W max
and 370Wh for 4.14lbs ( 1.88kg !!) = 196Wh per kg !
Doc
ecowheelz
100 W
Doctorbass said:
Mwah mwah... m'mwah mwah mwah. M'mwah mwah... m'mwah mwah mwah... (Charlie Brown's teacher speaking)
LOL
Russell
1 MW
Doctorbass said:
(40) 18650 cells makes sense and if they are using Panasonic cells then these could be them;
http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/battery/oem/images/pdf/Panasonic_LiIon_CGR18650DA.pdf
http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/battery/oem/images/pdf/Panasonic_LiIon_CGR18650E.pdf
At 45-46.5g each the weight checks out. If these are the cells being used then a 10Ah pack would be rather unimpressive with perhaps 18.6A-19.6A maximum at 2C.
If they used these cells the discharge rate would be much higher but then the weight would be double too.
http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/battery/oem/images/pdf/Panasonic_LiIon_CGR26650A.pdf
Oh yeah here's a 36V/20Ah "Li-ion" (lithium cobalt I imagine) battery I purchased recently.
It is small and light for a 20Ah battery (10 lbs 6 oz /4.70Kg) but it does have a low maximum discharge rating of 30A. That's fine for me since I use at most 22A but it sure makes me bemoan the loss of cheap Bosch Fatpacks even more. For reference my 36V/6.6Ah Bosch battery pack at one-third the capacity sags exactly the same amount under a 20A load as does the 36V/20Ah Li-ion pack. Again the Bosch LiMn packs are also much heavier.
-R
dogman dan
1 PW
Ok, so you may need three of em to have decent amps, but then you have 30 ah of range, with only 17.5 pounds of weight including the containers. That would work for me. Even just one would match up great with a bafang and a 15 amp controller.
mwkeefer
1 MW
Russell said:
R,
That my friend was a joke, it's also a video of a manufacture plant not a warehouse and was meant only for levity although I suppose it was low humor and in retrospect perhaps I should have posted a caption of what it really is... well, I will appologize for any mis-understanding my intent is not to insinuate that these new batteries are dangerous (I certainly have no basis or reason to believe they are any more dangerous than any other lithium cobalt based battery nor am i attempting to claim such).
For the record... though 30A is a bit low powered for my use, i will (as I do with most products of interest here) pick up a few for testing... the weight is not bad at all for the power delivered.
-Mike
It really all comes down to the price.
I wouldn't get too excited until he prices them and they are tested.
I wouldn't get too excited until he prices them and they are tested.
Having tried to register on ampedbikes.com for 2wks, 30 attempts,using 3 different EM accts,download install pdf 50+ times(not an exaggeration),communicate w/administrator or anyone who breathes(got 1 EM that plainly stated "thanks for your interest")and reading posts by "Danny"(adminisrator,and from other posts must be owner)arguing that NYC law is superseded by some federal fiat that he can't find right now,twice, I doubt the safety(and sanity) of buying anything,let alone batts from this outfit.If you are selling ekits and give legal rulings and you don't have some form of legal advice yourself,you are open to all kinds of legal grief.I'm eager for response.
NeezyDeezy
100 W
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2009
- Messages
- 149
E-bikes of any kind are absolutely illegal anywhere in New York State. If he said federal law is in conflict with New York State law, Danny means well but he's no lawyer. States certainly have the rights to regulate vehicles. The law in NY states initial fines of up to $250. Subsequent citations can include significantly increased fines and confiscation. Enforcement is another question.
JinbaIttai
100 W
^^
From what I've read on this forum, enforcement in New York is absolutely non-existent.
I do believe there are 2 US states that have let their state constitutions slip until ebikes are maybe not legal (Hawaii) or flat out illegal (New York).
Putting all things into a grand perspective, there is a difference that LEOs see between drug induced hard crime and riding a pollution free vehicle. Laws take years to catch up to common sense, if ever.
Sorry about your bad experience with Danny at Ampedbikes. Give him a call!
From what I've read on this forum, enforcement in New York is absolutely non-existent.
I do believe there are 2 US states that have let their state constitutions slip until ebikes are maybe not legal (Hawaii) or flat out illegal (New York).
Putting all things into a grand perspective, there is a difference that LEOs see between drug induced hard crime and riding a pollution free vehicle. Laws take years to catch up to common sense, if ever.
Sorry about your bad experience with Danny at Ampedbikes. Give him a call!
mwkeefer
1 MW
Okay guys... let me clear this up for everyone...
NYC law is superceded by Federal Law
Because:
The federal law gives states the right to enact more lenient legislation with regards to the "20mph max on flat w/ 170lb rider, 1hp electric" and thus allow higher speeds or load weights / power but - Federal Law says that so long as those above conditions are met that eBikes must be considered by the state as "Consumer Electronics Devices" rather than "Motor Vehicles" which by it's inherint nature - Motor Vehicle Code can only be made to apply to motor vehicles.
Traditionally states have worked things like eBikes (PA was one of the worst) or well... anything, even a skateboard with a motor into the all inclusive definition of "Motor Vehicle" - as I indicated above, the federal law provides this wonderful 20mph 1hp "EXCEPTION" which prevents states from "lawfully" claiming eBikes are "Motor Vehicles" or from enacting perse an eBike speed limit of 15mph on streets - in contrast to the federal 20mph limit.
Don't get me wrong, sidewalks, bikepaths, etc... all up to the individual state - it may be fully illegal to ride an eBike down the sidewalk in a given location/state in the US - that is fine, but the street ... they can't lawfully prohibit street use or curtail/encroach upon it any tighter than the federal laws.
So... much as it pains me (just kidding), Danny is right in that NYC is contrary to US Federal Law but... since those NYC laws are in "obvious" and "clear" violation / contratiction to the Federal eBike laws... they are moot as in America an unlawful law - Trust me if you went to court on this with a jury of NYC peers, you will win... the trick is, getting the trial you have to be charged outside motor vehicle code or you have to file civil suit. Before you can file civil suit you must have injury / loss which means they have to "unlawfully" charge you before they open themselves to civil action (in most cases).
Okay, as confusing as the above may be... I hope someone can derive somthing useful from it.
-Mike
NYC law is superceded by Federal Law
Because:
The federal law gives states the right to enact more lenient legislation with regards to the "20mph max on flat w/ 170lb rider, 1hp electric" and thus allow higher speeds or load weights / power but - Federal Law says that so long as those above conditions are met that eBikes must be considered by the state as "Consumer Electronics Devices" rather than "Motor Vehicles" which by it's inherint nature - Motor Vehicle Code can only be made to apply to motor vehicles.
Traditionally states have worked things like eBikes (PA was one of the worst) or well... anything, even a skateboard with a motor into the all inclusive definition of "Motor Vehicle" - as I indicated above, the federal law provides this wonderful 20mph 1hp "EXCEPTION" which prevents states from "lawfully" claiming eBikes are "Motor Vehicles" or from enacting perse an eBike speed limit of 15mph on streets - in contrast to the federal 20mph limit.
Don't get me wrong, sidewalks, bikepaths, etc... all up to the individual state - it may be fully illegal to ride an eBike down the sidewalk in a given location/state in the US - that is fine, but the street ... they can't lawfully prohibit street use or curtail/encroach upon it any tighter than the federal laws.
So... much as it pains me (just kidding), Danny is right in that NYC is contrary to US Federal Law but... since those NYC laws are in "obvious" and "clear" violation / contratiction to the Federal eBike laws... they are moot as in America an unlawful law - Trust me if you went to court on this with a jury of NYC peers, you will win... the trick is, getting the trial you have to be charged outside motor vehicle code or you have to file civil suit. Before you can file civil suit you must have injury / loss which means they have to "unlawfully" charge you before they open themselves to civil action (in most cases).
Okay, as confusing as the above may be... I hope someone can derive somthing useful from it.
-Mike
TylerDurden
100 GW
^^^ This is incorrect. ^^^mwkeefer said:
Federal references to ebikes are definitions within Consumer Protection law, not regarding roadway use.
State and local authority can restrict any vehicular travel at will. Federal regulation regarding ebikes has no bearing.
nwmtnbiker
10 W
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2009
- Messages
- 77
Tyler's absolutely right. The federal standards only come into play with respect to which federal agency's safety standards apply. Those electric bicycles sold in the US with speeds under 20MPH and motor under 750W have their safety standards set by the Consumer Product Safety Administration rather than the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration under the rationale that they're a consumer product, not a "motor vehicle." Those bikes with specs exceeding those standards that are sold in the US have to meet the more stringent safety standards for mopeds and motorcycles set by the national Highway Transportation Safety Administration.
Congress has left it up to the individual states on how to regulate the operation of electric bicycles on public rights of way, including licensing. With respect to federally-funded pedestrian/bike trails and walkways, Congress issued a prohibition on their use by electric bicycles unless a State has authorized such use by "electric bicycles". (See the permanent amendments to Section 217(h) of Title 23 of the United States effective upon enrollment of Public Law 105-178.)
http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/environment/bikeped/sec217.htm
Congress has left it up to the individual states on how to regulate the operation of electric bicycles on public rights of way, including licensing. With respect to federally-funded pedestrian/bike trails and walkways, Congress issued a prohibition on their use by electric bicycles unless a State has authorized such use by "electric bicycles". (See the permanent amendments to Section 217(h) of Title 23 of the United States effective upon enrollment of Public Law 105-178.)
http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/environment/bikeped/sec217.htm
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