"Just needs batteries" deals

[jeff96]

I know these questions have probably been answered but my search terms aren't cutting it. Links welcomed.

I live north of Toronto and my girlfriend is looking for an ebike to go to work (5km round trip) Figuring on wanting more like 15 to 20km range for side trips, colder weather, ageing batteries etc. Small city streets, no big hills. Seems like an ideal application for an ebike. She has a preference for Vespa style type of styling. She has an older Corolla that owes her nothing for rainy days and winter so it's hard to justify buying new.


I'm looking at a lot of 'it just needs batteries' ads on Kijiji and wondering if I'd be buying a good deal or an ongoing project.

I'm good with fixing motorcycles; brakes, 12v trouble shooting, changing tires, etc, but I'm not familiar with motor controllers, and ebikes in general.

Any makes or models to seek out or avoid? I've read lots of customer service complaints about Daymak, but I plan on doing the work myself if the bike itself is of reasonable quality.

Is there any way to verify the owner's assertion that it's just the batteries or are there other common issues that I should look out and/or test for?

I know 60+ volt systems are more efficient, but given the number of 48 volt bikes for sale, would that be good enough for what I'm looking for, or would I be upgrading or replacing it in a year?

Should I be concerned about finding items like brake pads?

Is there any point in buying SLA batteries or just bite the bullet and go with lithium?

Thanks!




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[amberwolf]

I'm looking at a lot of 'it just needs batteries' ads on Kijiji and wondering if I'd be buying a good deal or an ongoing project.

That's something you'd have to test, first by testing the existing battery to see if it even has a problem, then if so either by fixing the battery or by replacing it and then testing the rest of the system under your specific usage conditions.

Note that a good battery can cost as much or more than the entire rest of the vehicle (when new!, almost certainly much more than the whole used vehicle), for many purposes, especially if you need range, or power for hill climbing, load-carrying, etc.

Any makes or models to seek out or avoid? I've read lots of customer service complaints about Daymak, but I plan on doing the work myself if the bike itself is of reasonable quality.

There are threads about various brands/models, here and on other websites, so you can always do a search for various spellings of the brand or model that you find an ad for, to see what kinds of problems have been discussed.

Is there any way to verify the owner's assertion that it's just the batteries or are there other common issues that I should look out and/or test for?

Anything that can go wrong, has, on various systems. Specific brands, models, etc., may have common problems that get posted about, and those you can look up when you are considering a specific ad.

Most people that are selling a broken thing have no idea what is actually wrong with it. If it doesn't do what they want it to, they assume it's the power, which to them means the battery, when in fact it could be that it is simply incapable of doing what they want it to (not powerful enough, etc). Or it could be a connection fault anywhere in the system, a charger that doesn't charge the battery so the battery stays discharged, a controller or other part that doesnt' turn off so it drains the system, etc. Could even be a "drowned" system with water damage somewhere in it, an overheated motor that's burned out, etc.

To find out what the actual problem is, you'd have to test the battery, under load comparable to the system's (or using the actual system, if it is working). If the owner will let you troubleshoot it (which will require at least some disassembly to get to the battery connections to measure voltage, current, voltage drop under load, etc.) without buying it first, you could do that, but you may be investing many hours of time in something you will then not buy.

Also, for systems with removable batteries, thieves may sell a system as "battery was dead so i threw it away"; something to be careful of if you care about that sort of thing. Or if it has the battery but "they lost the charger"....

I know 60+ volt systems are more efficient, but given the number of 48 volt bikes for sale, would that be good enough for what I'm looking for, or would I be upgrading or replacing it in a year?

One voltage is not more efficient than another. That's up to the individual system itself--the motor and controller mostly, but also the gearing of the system vs the speed and load it is used under.

That depends on your specific use case, your riding conditions, etc. If you go to http://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html and set it up with your conditions, then see what system will do what you want under those conditions, it'll help tell you what you're looking for, in voltage, current, wattage, etc.

Should I be concerned about finding items like brake pads?

Any part on an OEM (prebuilt) vehicle of any kind (EV or not) may only be available from that OEM (or even unavailable), so you should research whether the specific vehicle you are going to buy (used or new) has generic replacement parts available.

Sometimes it's possible to replace the entire system the part is for (like the whole brake system) with a standard OTS unit that parts are "always" available for, but that depends on the mounting points for it, and interconnections with the rest of the systems on the vehicle, if any (like brake lights/sensors, etc) and whether those are required (like to make the vehicle computer operate) or not.

Realistically, you can assume that if something is not under warranty (nothing you buy used will be), that you cannot get any parts for it (you might be able to, but safer to assume you cannot unless you know for a fact otherwise). So you should assume that if something is wrong with the controller, motor, display, etc., you'd need to buy an entirely new drive/control system for it, and factor the cost of that into your purchase price, along with the expense of the new battery.

Is there any point in buying SLA batteries or just bite the bullet and go with lithium?

SLA will give you less than half the capability/capacity of a good lithium battery for more than twice the weight and the same or more cost.

There are crappy batteries you can get cheap, in any chemistry; don't get those. If it seems cheap, don't buy it, as cheap usually means crap. If it's used, don't buy it, unless you can test it in your specific use case first, on your actual system, to find out capability and range--assume a used battery is worth zero until proven otherwise.

However you go, for a good one, the battery is going to cost you a fair bit.



If you need advice on a specific potential purchase, you can post a link to it here in this thread and we can look at it to see if we know enough to help.

 

[CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING]

Any makes or models to seek out or avoid? I've read lots of customer service complaints about Daymak, but I plan on doing the work myself if the bike itself is of reasonable quality.

It's a hard question; tons of stuff off alibaba/aliexpress (and even now amazon!) can be the shit. But tons is also just shit, and unfortunately it's hard to verify something like say, a quality QS motor used in a vehicle when they always remove the labels and markings. Best bet would be to research anything that appears and to look for information before even contacting the seller at all.

Is there any way to verify the owner's assertion that it's just the batteries or are there other common issues that I should look out and/or test for?

If you have a sort of power supply that can supply enough voltage to spoof the earlier battery you could potentially try to see if it turns the wheel. I cant see why a lab bench power supply couldn't be used for that purpose, though it would require you to always test something before buying next to a working outlet.

I know 60+ volt systems are more efficient, but given the number of 48 volt bikes for sale, would that be good enough for what I'm looking for, or would I be upgrading or replacing it in a year?

For a new person, 48 volts is likely just fine.

Should I be concerned about finding items like brake pads?

Yes.

Is there any point in buying SLA batteries or just bite the bullet and go with lithium?

You should go with SLA if:

• The bike has built-in electrics specifically for SLA and converting it to lithium would require rebuilding/customizing you aren't comfortable with doing.

• Cost is a major factor, since lithiums are still more expensive than SLA (though not after ~2 years).

• Your knowledge/skill with electronics is next to nil. Safety should be top priority, and SLAs don't start fires and can withstand some abuse.

• The stock SLAs just needed desulfating, and your "It just needs a battery!" scooter is suddenly working again.

Basically, I agree totally that SLAs should go to lithium, but also be honest with your scenario and skill level. Don't yank em until you're comfortable.

 

[jeff96]

Thanks for the replies. I'll probably spend a little more on something that works right now and budget for new batteries in a year or two, unless I find something well kept and cheap (and not stolen)
That said, I did contact a seller who had bought this bike used, but it has no make or model information on it. Is that a red flag for theft?
Can anyone identify this bike? It's over an hours drive to go look at it so I'd rather do some research before I spend that time.
https://www.kijiji.ca/v-ebike/city-of-toronto/e-bike-for-sale/1644696265

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[CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING]

Thanks for the replies. I'll probably spend a little more on something that works right now and budget for new batteries in a year or two, unless I find something well kept and cheap (and not stolen)
That said, I did contact a seller who had bought this bike used, but it has no make or model information on it. Is that a red flag for theft?
Can anyone identify this bike? It's over an hours drive to go look at it so I'd rather do some research before I spend that time.

Only $200? I can't ID it, and I'd say there's a decent chance they stole it if they "know nothing". Even a simple "I bought it from a friend, thought I could figure it out but it's above my level" would be believable.

It's a Vespa clone, and sadly there's tens of different ones on Alibaba. Can you get better pictures of the motor and it's internals? Have they provided any markings on it at all?

 

[jeff96]

His reply...
"I bought this used on kijiji couple years ago and no name or model on it that I can find except some chinese on tires"

Sounds plausible to me. Usually the $200 ones look like they've sat in the snow for a few winters, so this one might be worth looking into.

Worst case scenario is that I have a rolling chassis to build a bike from. That's not my ideal plan but it's still doable I think.

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[CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING]

His reply...
"I bought this used on kijiji couple years ago and no name or model on it that I can find except some chinese on tires"

Sounds plausible to me. Usually the $200 ones look like they've sat in the snow for a few winters, so this one might be worth looking into.

Worst case scenario is that I have a rolling chassis to build a bike from. That's not my ideal plan but it's still doable I think.

Okay yeah, that sounds alright.

If he sends a close-up pic of the charger, you can figure what the battery was running for a voltage. Can they send you a pic of the motor? Is it a brushless hub or is it driving the rear wheel via a belt?

 

[jeff96]

I'll probably have to go see to get those answers.
There's another bike in the area that might be worth it. More cash initially but is currently working. He bought it used 2 years ago and doesn't know make/model. 60v batteries probably SLA but needs brakes fixed.
Looks like a more recognizable one though...

https://www.kijiji.ca/v-ebike/city-of-toronto/electric-motorcycle/1641896744

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[amberwolf]

Pretty much if there is no brand and model on something, *and* that specific model and brand is listed somewhere on the internet with either a manual or a specifications list that details what's *really* in it, there's no way to really know anything about it without physically examining it and knowing what you are looking at. There are literally thousands of clones of clones of clones of many versions of these kinds of things.

Neither of the linked images comes up, both say page not found in all my browsers. If you use the attachments tab on the post, and upload the picture file itself (usually just pasting the image URL into the dialog box for uploading is enough, without first downloading the file), then it will be in the actual post you make, and not just linked to somewhere on the internet that can make their pages go away at any moment now or in the future.

FWIW, on the last one, if it's 2 years old and used and still working (normally, not just barely), it is highly unlikely to be SLA batteries (which often last less than a year, rarely two). More likely to be a lithium variant. (assuming they have not been replaced at least once or twice in the vehicle's lifetime).

 

[amberwolf]

I still highly recommend first making yourself a list of exactly what you need the vehicle to do for you, under what conditions, at what maximum sustained speed under the worst of those conditions, and for what range at that maximum speed under the worst of those conditions.

Many of these "scooters", even when new, are barely capable of doing much more than what a pedal-powered bicycle can (some of them even less) when riding on the flats, and some may not even be able to climb hills, or accelerate quickly enough to be safe / useful in traffic, etc. They might claim the ability to do more than they can; it's not uncommon for sellers to be...overly generous with their advertising, shall we say.

So unless you're just looking for a project vehicle to build something out of, potentially replacing all the active stuff on it (possibly even the motor), knowing what you need it to do will help you find one that is at least potentially capable of doing that.

 

[jeff96]

@amberwolf I'm not sure why you can't see the pictures I uploaded, but I also linked to the advertisement. If anyone else is following, can you see the attached screenshots in previous posts?

Anyways I mentioned in the op that the commute is a 5km round trip on relatively flat streets. In Ontario, ebikes are limited to 30 km/hr which sounds like a reasonable speed for an in town commute. Expected range of 15 to 20 km.

I'm willing to do some fixing and upgrading but I don't want to get into a complete rebuild.

 

[amberwolf]

@amberwolf I'm not sure why you can't see the pictures I uploaded, but I also linked to the advertisement. If anyone else is following, can you see the attached screenshots in previous posts?

The link doesn't go anywhere--it only goes to a "page not found" error message.

Hmm... Apparently this page no longer exists.

Most likely the page has been removed or there was a typo in the link.

I'd guess the link is either corrupted or incomplete, or something happened with tapatalk and it incorrectly formatted the post so that neither the link nor image come up right. I did not examine your link but you can edit your posts to do so, and correct it if necessary.
I quoted just the link sections out of the posts below

https://www.kijiji.ca/v-ebike/city-of-toronto/e-bike-for-sale/1644696265

https://www.kijiji.ca/v-ebike/city-of-toronto/electric-motorcycle/1641896744

Anyways I mentioned in the op that the commute is a 5km round trip on relatively flat streets. In Ontario, ebikes are limited to 30 km/hr which sounds like a reasonable speed for an in town commute. Expected range of 15 to 20 km.

Then you can use that information in the simulator previously linked to see what wattage is generally required to do this to know if the motor/controller will do it. You can also use it to try different voltage systems to see how much battery current is required for that voltage to get the right speed/etc., and how much battery current / voltage affects the acceleration (how quickly it reaches the max speed) if that's important to you. That would let you either figure out what controller *will* do that if you need to change it, or what battery will do it if the existing one can't.

Also tells you about how many Wh/km battery usage to make sure the battery can have enough capacity for your range.



My best guess without using the simulator or knowing the rest of the details of your needs or situation is that given the speed limit, even many of the "crappy" ones would probably do the speed you want, assuming the battery is good and of a high enough capacity to give you the range you want. Better ones will have better acceleration; crappy ones could take a long time to reach the full speed, so would be less safe in traffic. Some of the worst ones might not go fast enough (might only make 10-12kmh).


For batteries vs range vs conditions vs age, etc., cold makes batteries less capable, the worse the cold the less current they can supply and the more voltage sag, and the less capacity (range) they deliver. Same with age--some age faster than others, SLA probably being the worst. (for instance, SLA that isn't immediately recharged after every use accumulates damage faster than if it's recharged every single time it's used (at every destination)).

I'd guess the capacity usage would be in the 10-15wh/km range for 30kmh on flat ground. Depends on how much stop/start traffic there is, vs how much continuous riding at speed--the more start/stop the higher the usage will usualy be.