Lacing question

[danjpendleton]

My wheel builder just sent me a few pics of my 3" wide double wall rims that he is lacing to a clyte hs3540.

He laced the front rim to a 100mm shimano disk hub and it came out great.



But the rear wheel(motor wheel) is obviously a bit different. He said he ordered spoke washers for that rim to strengthen them up.

One concern im having is that there is a slight extra bend in the spoke because of the way the spoke nipples are seated in the rim. He doesnt seem to think it will be much of an issue though. He said he could radially lace it but doesnt think it will be as strong... Heres a pic, what do you guys think???

 

[Ykick]

All my 9C hubs laced 1 cross in 26" wheels look like that coming outta the nipples. Never had one break at that spot in over 10k miles and several years of service.

I don't like it but it's fairly low on the "todo" list....

btw, one idea floated around but I've never tried it yet - "radial lacing" using enough spoke length so that they're still somewhat angled but not actually crossing.

 

[wesnewell]

Those look like 24" rims. I don't think you should go to radial until you get down to 20" rims.

 

[friendly1uk]

I don't like it. The bend is there because it is the most stressed point. If it is already bending now, then what happens when you use it?

Can we see a bigger pic to better advise on your options. It looks like it maybe 2 cross, which is a cross to many if that is the result. I find it hard to believe it is 1 cross, leaving radial as your next choice. I have not seen it though...

 

[cal3thousand]

Those angles are OK.

Remember that spokes support the wheel in spoke tension. So it may look like that bend would be a concentration point for compression stress, but since the spoke is in tension, that's not the case.

 

[friendly1uk]

Those angles are OK.

Remember that spokes support the wheel in spoke tension. So it may look like that bend would be a concentration point for compression stress, but since the spoke is in tension, that's not the case.

If you kept that patten, would you drill the rim to allow better seating? I was thinking of that over a switch from 1x too radial.

 

[danjpendleton]

Hes going to try cross-1 lacing. I thought i mentioned that when i gave him the rim and motor. Ill post pics when its all finished up

 

[cal3thousand]

Hes going to try cross-1 lacing. I thought i mentioned that when i gave him the rim and motor. Ill post pics when its all finished up

Definitely, go 1 cross. I couldn't tell from that close up pic that it was 2 cross. I put a 1 cross on all motors and a 3 cross on all others.

I wouldn't go radial unless absolutely necessary.

 

[danjpendleton]

he did a bang up job lacing these. They are gonna look awesome

 

[cal3thousand]

Nice!!

 

[Tench]

On my HT I find the spokes all sit better when all the spoke heads are to the outside of the motor flange, the countersink on the holes on my motor is different inside and out, if the spoke heads are put inboard mine needs washers on them. If you have any slack here it leads to spoke breakages.

They look great from here!

 

[Supertux1]

Short Answer: It's probably fine but could be better.

Long Answer: Wheelbuilding requires attention to detail that machines and factory workers don't have for economic reasons.
If you want a quality wheel you have to do it yourself and spend hours doing it.

The bend at the spoke nipple means that the spokes have not been de-stressed. See Jobst Brandt's 'The Bicycle Wheel' pages 72-75. You need to put a permanent kink in the spoke near where it exits the nipple so there is no bow. Grab spokes that make a V on the same side and squeeze the crap out of them with leather gloves on as hard as you can. Assuming you have quality spokes, they won't break, but you probably don't have quality spokes as per the typical chinese wheel, so see the Short Answer. Now of course after this you have changed the tensions on your spokes so your wheel will need re-truing, so don't do this unless you're prepared to do that.

I build all my wheels myself with quality rims that have stainless steel eyelets and double butted spokes from a quality manufacturer (DT Swiss / Sapim)
You will too after one or more of those cheap chinese spokes snaps on the road and you stop in to the nearest local bike store, they give you weird looks when you ask for 12 or 13 gauge custom cut spokes.

Investing in the tools and the knowledge is not cheap but building a quality wheel that will last forever is awesome.

Here's a wheel I'm working on (and since completed.)

I really like the Alex Rims Supra D paired with Sapim Double Butted Strong Spokes for 26" electric mountain bikes.
This probably costs about $140 for the rim and spokes alone, but it's worth it to know that your wheel isn't going to fall apart at 30mph.

 

[cal3thousand]

I really like the Alex Rims Supra D paired with Sapim Double Butted Strong Spokes for 26" electric mountain bikes.
This probably costs about $140 for the rim and spokes alone, but it's worth it to know that your wheel isn't going to fall apart at 30mph.

I'm running Supra Ds with Sapim doubles on my HT3525. Very good quality to price point on these rims and spokes.

 

[Supertux1]

On my HT I find the spokes all sit better when all the spoke heads are to the outside of the motor flange, the countersink on the holes on my motor is different inside and out, if the spoke heads are put inboard mine needs washers on them. If you have any slack here it leads to spoke breakages.

They look great from here!

The counter sink holes are not for the spoke heads, they are to accommodate the bend in the spoke elbow.

On my MAC motor, and probably others, there are counter sinks on both sides of each hole to accommodate whichever way you want to put them. I have seen a lot of motors where the drive (gear) side have all the heads on the inside of the flange and the non-drive side have all the heads on the outside of the flange, with all of the spokes the same length.

This makes the lacing somewhat simpler for mass produced wheels and creates a small amount of dish in the wheel, but it is not the best way to lace a wheel and done purely for economic reasons. Consider yourself lucky if you get a chinese wheel that has has close to the proper amount of dish at all.

With high torque motors, I lace rear wheels with the pulling spokes' heads on the insides of the flanges and the pushing spokes' heads on the outside of the flanges. The pulling spoke crosses under the pushing spoke. When the wheel is driven, the pulling spoke tension increases as it is stretched tangentially to pull the rim around and the pushing spoke tension decreases and it is compressed. By having the pulling spokes be head in and going under the pushing spokes, it helps to keep the overall tension in the wheel balanced by tensioning the pushing spoke at the cross as it is losing tension.

For front disc brakes I do it the same way but assume the wheel will be rotating backwards towards the rear of the bike, because front disc brakes are like reverse torque. Some people do this to the brake side of the rear wheel as well, but I don't. On my non electric disc brake bikes I lace both wheels as if the bike goes backwards, because the reverse-torque from disc braking at speed is an order of magnitude higher than what I do pedaling.