Laz's version 2 build

[lazarus2405]

So, my first build came and went with nary a pic. So, for round two, I thought I'd do a little better. Should be a fun ride:

A quick recap of the v1 build:
I ordered a 5304 (which actually turned out to be a 5303) in a 26" rim, powered by 6 Milwaukee V28 packs for an 84v 6ah setup. The heart was 4110 controller, rebuilt by Bob Mcree, with a 55a current limit, and the donor bike was a used Schwinn S25. Top speed was 47mph. The bike died when the dropouts failed, allowing the axle to spin, shoring phase wires, and blowing the controller and Hall sensors.

The only pic of the v1 bike:

View attachment 1

So, a short to-do list for the new build:
Torque arms! My, how I need them!
Double the battery, from 500wh to 1kwh.
Increased voltage! 112v9ah, up from 84v6ah
Smaller wheel, from a 26" to a 20"
Regenerative braking
Improved plug braking
Opportunity charging
Watertight, lockable battery container
Improved low voltage electronics (12v and 5v for lights and small electronics)

This is perhaps a conservative list. Ambitious, indeed.

So, where to begin?

Well, for the repair:

A new 4110 v2 Clyte controller is on the way, with a huge thanks to rooney2. I know you're lurking; feel free to post!

A Digikey with new Hall effect sensors is on the way, perhaps arriving today or tomorrow. I'm... looking forward... to soldering those tiny things. :x

I replaced the damaged phase wires with 10AWG. They barely fit through the axle, but fit they do.



A huge thanks goes out to PerplexArt, who offered to CNC some very beautiful torque arms very, very reasonably.

Custom for the Schwinn S-series. Secures torque in both directions. Absolutely beautiful.

And absolutely necessary. The drops are intact, but round:

So, the upgrades:

I covered the batteries pretty well explaining them to mlrosier. I'll just paste that here, with some small edits:

The twelve Milwaukee packs arranged in four subpacks, each containing the cells of 3 packs in parallel, forming a 28v9ah unit. The subpacks are then wired in series for a total of 112v 9ah.

The red lights are the SoC indicator. Red lights means good. :wink:

Each subpack uses one 7-cell Milwaukee BMS, with three cells in parallel per "channel". The BMS sees 7 cells, but it is in actuality seeing the average voltage of three cells. The cells will in parallel balance each other, like water seeking its own level.

The diagram is courtesy of maytag. You'd be interested in his emoli build, here: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=541

In this arrangement, one charger fully charges each subpack in a bit under three hours. I use four, one per subpack.

With the three pairs of Andersons snapped together, I can disconnect just one mechanical connector when I want them isolated, like for charging. Apparently the Milwaukee chargers dislike charging packs in series.

This is the naked charger. I removed it from the case, cutting the plastic around the base with a soldering iron to leave nothing but the charger. The three wires on the outer edges, positive, negative, and thermal sensor, have spade connectors to plug into the batteries. The three in the center go to the intact status LEDs. In the upper left of the charger are two male spades for AC power.

And this is the bare BMS. Note the flimsy ribbon cables. Be careful, as they tear easily.

I also put Andersons on a power strip, so that I have an easy way to power accessories. The voltage easily drives switching power supplies. In this picture, it's powering my laptop.

 

[lazarus2405]

I'm replacing my soft bag with the Swagman pod about which kayak and EMF have posted. I emulated EMF's sliderail build, right down to the pull pin. I have yet to decide exactly how to mount the rail on my rear rack.



As you can see, there's lots of room, even more than I had anticipated. I'll be easily able to fit my batteries, chargers, DC-DC converter, and other odds and ends.

 

[D-Man]

Are you getting another bike or fixing the dropouts on the one you have? As I recall, the fets in the batteries blew when maytag tried to go 3 packs in series, so how did you get around that?

 

[lazarus2405]

I'll be trying to use those dropouts with the torque arms to relieve them of all the load. If that fails, I'll investigate a new frame.

I'm discharging them by bypassing the bms, only using it for charging. Maytag's experience influenced this design choice.

More updates today.

 

[recumbent]

Are you going to use the same frame that had a motor spin in the drop-outs?

The new torque arm definately looks tough, but 80+ volts is asking for trouble i'm aftraid.

 

[lazarus2405]

Are you going to use the same frame that had a motor spin in the drop-outs?
l
The new torque arm definately looks tough, but 80+ volts is asking for trouble i'm aftraid.

In any context, 80+ volts is asking for trouble. But, when I have the arms, I'll see, starting at 56v and working up to 112v. As long as the arms fit, it'll be fine, really.

Anyway, update time!

The controller, hall sensors, rim, and spokes all came in this week. A big thanks to rooney2, digikey, and ypedal, respectively.

After replacing the halls and puting the motor back together, I was ready to hook it up. I had to remove my trim pot from the throttle and correct a phase wire mislabelling before the wheel would spin. I did full throttle unloaded tests at 56 and 84v, and it looked good. On to the next task.

The BMS on one of my subpacks is acting up. FETs are tripped open, so it's on the bench awaiting surgery.

Now the real fun: wheel resizing. I spent a good three hours filing those damn eyelets to accept 12ga nipples! Ypedal, you said 'a little filing'! However, it beats paying someone at a LBS $30/hour to do it. Now the wheel is laced as tightly as I can without a 12ga spoke wrench, which is to say not tight at all. It looks good nonetheless.



I'm very happy with the fit, so far. Even without a tire, there is plenty of pedal clearance, even with a good deal of leaning. I figure the tire will elevate the pedals roughly as high as any bumps I'll see around here.



I also am still very happpy with how the S25 bows out to allow accomidate the motor. Even with an x5 and 7speed freewheel, there's plenty of room. And that ridiculously wide rim also fits nicely.



I decided to go with a mismatched pair of hookworms. Ypedal, a 1.95 should seat in that rim, correct? I know it won't balloon. They'll get into the LBS middle of next week.

Non-electric woes: When biking, I killed my derailleur hanger. It was damaged in the original axle spin, but only gave when I needed to power through a left tirn lane. Eek! A new one is on the way, and until then the only way that bike is moving is with the push of shame.

View attachment 3

On to the controller. First, the battery and phase wires are terribly thin, perhaps 16 or 14awg. I snipped those, but I didn't have enough 10awg left to replace them. I moved on to reinforcing the buses, using whole 10awg in addition to what was stock. I also brought in more solder around the FET legs, and I may go back and add some copper there, too. Is it overkill? Most likely. Would I prefer it overbuilt? Absolutely!



I still need to clean up some of the flux and check everything for shorts, but it looks good.

I have a lot of room in the controller case. I bet I can get a 1000uF cap or two in there. I know it won't hurt at high current, but is it worth the digikey order?

Also, I decided to get a new crankset with a larger chainring, to help offset the loss of pedal gearing going from the 26 to 20 The biggest that would fit the frame was a 48t. While I'm at it, does anyone know where I can get a freewheel with a 11t or so small gear? Mine's a 14t.

Front discs are also on the way. I'm a huge prroponent of motor braaking, but I'll be the first to admit that they won't do much at low speeds.

 

[Ypedal]

Way to go Laz !!! Lookin good !

3 hrs !!.. you must have a dull file ! hehe...

 

[lazarus2405]

It's what I had lying around. *shrug*

Everything right now is held up, waiting on torque arms and the LBS order (tires, derailleur hanger, spoke wrench, front crankset, front disc calipers and wheel with rotor).

After the 20" is squared away, I could throw it in my other steel, completely unsuspended bike. It might be painful, but it'd let me do low speed tests with 112v...

 

[Ypedal]

Quote " but it'd let me do low speed tests with 112v... "

Uhm... ??? low speed.. and 112v.. lol.. suuuuure...

 

[lazarus2405]

...it's better than nothing?

 

[Pete]

Are you going to use the same frame that had a motor spin in the drop-outs?
l
Also, I decided to get a new crankset with a larger chainring, to help offset the loss of pedal gearing going from the 26 to 20 The biggest that would fit the frame was a 48t. While I'm at it, does anyone know where I can get a freewheel with a 11t or so small gear? Mine's a 14t.

Try Greenspeed ; http://www.greenspeed.com.au/pdfs/GS%20Parts%20Price%20List%20FEB%2008%20RRP%20WEBSITE.pdf , they have the DNP 34-11 freewheel. A chinese knock off of the Shimano Mega Range that does not seem to be available any more.

 

[lazarus2405]

Well, time for an update, but I'm feeling lazy. So, the new derailleur hanger came for the S25, but it didn't fit. None of them that the LBS had would fit. So, I have temporarily scrapped the S25 in favor of a Diamondback XTS.

The motor and controller are fully repaired/modified and up and running. I gave the XTS the Hookworm treatment, put the controller in the middle of the frame, threw the Swagman pod on the back, and started testing.

I tried 56v first, and had a good time. A little rear-heavy, with 500Wh of E-molis in the trunk, but fun. Acceleration was weaker than the 84v 26" setup, but that's as it should be. It topped out at 30mph, and the front hydraulic disc stopped it beautifully. I decided to make sure temperature was in check. Batteries, motor, controller, wires, connectors were all good. Without thinking, I then felt the disc rotor. Burned my palm. I should have known better.

Anyway, I just finished testing at 84v, adding another 28v9ah subpack. And the results?

It is awful. Completely unmanageable. With the weight so far back on the bike, any more than a tiny bit of throttle when starting from stall will initiate a wheelie. Either I have to be very careful, or I must operate it as a "pedal-first" for the time being. Even starting at 5mph cuts down on the starting current spike and makes the thing play nice

My CA is off in Canada being upgraded so I can operate at 112v (Above ~110v it will blow). If it was hooked up, I would simply set the current limit to ~7a and run the bike in "legal" mode below 10mph and throw it into "turbo" after.

I've only taken it up to 30mph, so far, due to some of the issues listed below. The simulator says I should be getting crazy speed out of it if I just twist the throttle further, but...

My last subpack is still awaiting surgery. The throttle's position is flush against the shifter; I positioned it so that it didn't interfere with the shifter operation, but I didn't think that the shifter would interfere with the throttle. Since they're triggers, they hang over the throttle and make it more difficult to handle. Bleh.

And since the bike frame is relatively new to the project, I'm using my adjustable wrench as a temporary torque arm. The rear wheel, with that 5303 in the superwide 20" rim, is far out of true. The rear shock's air pressure is far too low and is bottoming out on potholes with a rider and batteries. And of course, the weight distribution issue.

All side-projects, like regen or resistive braking, GPS, headlights, and low voltage stuff is on hold temporarily. First things first.

However, other than all of that, the beast is back up and running, and I have an ebike grin again, though tempered.

Pics to come, when I decide to transfer them off the phone.

 

[Link]

Anyway, I just finished testing at 84v, adding another 28v9ah subpack. And the results?

It is awful. Completely unmanageable. With the weight so far back on the bike, any more than a tiny bit of throttle when starting from stall will initiate a wheelie. Either I have to be very careful, or I must operate it as a "pedal-first" for the time being. Even starting at 5mph cuts down on the starting current spike and makes the thing play nice

Sounds like fun .

How much does the pack weigh, BTW?

 

[lazarus2405]

Link, I wish I knew. Living in a male dorm, no one even has a bathroom scale. :wink: I'll try to find out.

More testing today. I had the rear shock aired up for a very gentle ride with just my weight. With the battery weight in addition to that, the sag was too much, and the shock compressed under acceleration.

So, I aired it up, and the tendency to wheelie (at 84v) is greatly reduced. Whew. I just get it up to 3mph and then give it the throttle, and all is good.

The ride is very, very smooth. With the stiffer suspension, there's almost no pogo. Huzzah. For the record, the shock is a Manitou Swinger 3-way, and yes, I bought it just for the name. :wink:

With the 50a current limit, 84v, and the 5303 in a 20", I got up to 44mph before I ran out of bike path (hey, it was flat, straight, smooth, and deserted!). I was pretty happy with it.

I fitted the torque arm Jonathan on these forums made for my S25. It doesn't fit nearly as well as it does on the Schwinn, but it gets the job done. On the other side, I'm using a crescent wrench on the nut. It transfers torque through the threads on the axle and, if nothing else, keeps the nut from loosening,

The last 28v are coming. Just being lazy here, with the subpack sitting ...

 

[lazarus2405]

Enjoy

 

[Ypedal]

I recommend a 24" for the front to offset things a bit better ! ( the big 26 will increase lean when turning ! )


And that trunk ouf.. now i understand why you are a wheelie wonder .

I like that bike tho ! 8) ... just needs to be refined a bit.

 

[lazarus2405]

Yeah, the head tube angle is a little wonky. Gotta lean counter to the direction of the turn. It actually is pretty fun.

I switched saddles about an hour before that photo was taken. Because of it, I can move the trunk about another 3 inches forward.

I'll most likely move two subpacks up somewhere in the front. That's the controller in the frame there, because it was convenient and just fit so well. If I didn't want to be able to pedal, I could pretty easily get all the batteries in that general area.

 

[lazarus2405]

For the mountain bike aficionados out there, the actual bike's specs:

Rock Shox Psylo XC U-Turn fork
Manitou Swinger 3-way rear shock
Shimano Deore XT front and rear derailleurs
Shimano Deore RapidFire SL trigger shifters
TruVativ ISIS DH bottom bracket
TruVativ Hussefelt crankset (22t/32t/44t)
Magura Julie hydraulic brakes (only front; had to remove the rear to fir the x5).
Cateye Enduro 8 cycling computer (neato!)

So, it's a real step up from the Target bike. Not that I actually need all that expensive drivetrain... The shocks are nice, though, and the frame will last.

So, what about the disc brake?

I have a nice hydraulic lever, caliper, and rotor siting here on my desk with no way to mount them. So, I'd like to put it on the x5, but I don't know where to start. Please help, those of you who have experience with disc-ing the x5. How do I mount the caliper? How do I mount the rotor? Will my rotor fit, or will I need a new one? Will there be clearance, or how can I make clearance?

 

[Ypedal]

Since you have experience with opening the motor :lol: you got that part covered.

You need a motor cover with a threaded collar ( same type as on the freewheel side ) ..

Then you bolt the disk to the threaded adapter and thread it on the cover.

Your frame was made for disk.. so likely has 150mm spacing, you have to space the disk far enough so that the caliper will fit between the motor and disk without rubbing.. ( it's tight.. 1 or 2 mm will do ! )

 

[lazarus2405]

I can't even mount the caliper, though; as it was originally installed, the caliper hit the side cover, and they just won't fit. Are there adapter plates to spacers I'd need?

Specifically what sort of "threaded adapter" will I need? Ebikes.ca has two custom-machined ones, and they also sell 6" rotors with threaded adapters. This rotor I have is a 160mm or so. Can I just use the substantially cheaper 6" w/ threaded adapter unit, or must I use the rotor made for my calipers?

 

[recumbent]

You can buy 8" discs and matching clamp mount for caliper at any bike store for about $60,

This should give you the clearance you need.

 

[HAL9000v2.0]

You can make one like mine. Tomorow i'll put DXF file in "3D shering...something" topic.
there is 22mm clearance for calliper on inner side (26" rim).

 

[lazarus2405]

That's a tad expensive, isn't it? Don't you need that custom CNC'd?

 

[kbarrett]

That's a tad expensive, isn't it? Don't you need that custom CNC'd?

Yea, but it causes onlookers to drool and say "I want one".

 

[HAL9000v2.0]

I 'we just spoke with my "laserman" and he can do 12pcs from 1 sheet of stainles steel for cca. 80-100$/pcs (exact price i'll get on monday). If you are interested i'll ask for shipping costs. If I make more the price will go rapidly down. I am only one AFAIK in this corner of the world with X5 so one on the bike and one spare is enough for me.