Hummina Shadeeba
1 MW
It seems connecting any lithium cells and selling them requires expensive certification but what of just attaching tabs, would that be legal to sell?
Legality of shipping cylindrical cells with tabs and homemade batteries generally
- Thread starter Hummina Shadeeba
- Start date
I don't understand the question.
Lithium batteries can catch fire and kill people. That's why there are a bunch of laws regarding shipping them. Nickel tabs are pretty safe by themselves. I don't think there are any particular laws about selling the batteries, it's the shipping where you need to have a certification.
Lithium batteries can catch fire and kill people. That's why there are a bunch of laws regarding shipping them. Nickel tabs are pretty safe by themselves. I don't think there are any particular laws about selling the batteries, it's the shipping where you need to have a certification.
Micah Toll did that for about a year. He sold enough spot-welded tabbed cells to have a few dozen packs made (the tabs could be soldered to each other with no heat reaching the cell).
Tabbed cells are MUCH easier and cheaper to sell and ship, compared to a fully assembled 1000-Watt-Hour pack.
However, they still require lots of paperwork and hassle. The post office should be able to provide a lithium cell shipping requirements checklist. I would also check the websites of FedEx and UPS for their checklist.
Tabbed cells are MUCH easier and cheaper to sell and ship, compared to a fully assembled 1000-Watt-Hour pack.
However, they still require lots of paperwork and hassle. The post office should be able to provide a lithium cell shipping requirements checklist. I would also check the websites of FedEx and UPS for their checklist.
Hummina Shadeeba
1 MW
It’s hard to find info on the law. Selling cells with tabs attached seems ok I guess but can anyone sell a welded or soldered battery as long as it’s going by ground transportation if labeled hazmat nine.
My understanding is the packaging has to be tested by a certified lab for a specific configuration (pack size). Basically a drop test, but you have to pay a lot of money for an official test. Just slapping a 9 sticker on the box isn't legal.
Hummina Shadeeba
1 MW
I’m finding u can get away with not doing the certification testing if it’s a prototype battery of less than hundred made and shipped ground and with the nine label and a bunch of specific packaging. I’m trying to figure the details of those requirements now. Surprised no one is selling cells with tabs attached anymore that I can find.
The positive tip of these cells has turned out to be very robust, but the negative end of an 18650/21700 cell is clearly the most sensitive end to heat. Many builders already have a soldering iron, and are reluctant to buy a spot welder.
This creates a market. Whether you or I feel that this is a good idea or not, there are customers around the world in nations that the major battery pack suppliers will not ship to. Their choice is to build their own lithium battery pack or have no battery pack (or keep using lead acid).
I believe the original poster was referring to something like these single cell tabs. This example is from "18650 shrink and cell holders, inc". If someone chooses to build a pack with these, the end that most needs to avoid heat from a poor soldering technique is the negative end. LFP has been a proponent of avoiding even the heat of spot-welders, but for many builders, their options are limited and they have to make-do with whatever they can.
https://www.ebay.com/str/18650shrinkandcellholders
Once the ends are tabbed (or at the very least, the negative end) then these loose cells would be no more difficult to ship than when they arrived at the tabbing shop. That being said, it is not easy to ship loose cells. Doing that is complex and difficult, but shipping a fully-assembled pack is MUCH more costly and difficult.
This creates a market. Whether you or I feel that this is a good idea or not, there are customers around the world in nations that the major battery pack suppliers will not ship to. Their choice is to build their own lithium battery pack or have no battery pack (or keep using lead acid).
I believe the original poster was referring to something like these single cell tabs. This example is from "18650 shrink and cell holders, inc". If someone chooses to build a pack with these, the end that most needs to avoid heat from a poor soldering technique is the negative end. LFP has been a proponent of avoiding even the heat of spot-welders, but for many builders, their options are limited and they have to make-do with whatever they can.
https://www.ebay.com/str/18650shrinkandcellholders
Once the ends are tabbed (or at the very least, the negative end) then these loose cells would be no more difficult to ship than when they arrived at the tabbing shop. That being said, it is not easy to ship loose cells. Doing that is complex and difficult, but shipping a fully-assembled pack is MUCH more costly and difficult.
Hummina Shadeeba
1 MW
those are some weird tabs. so thin. But I don't see anywhere selling cells with tabs attached.
https://www.clsmith.com/hazplus-hazardous-material-packaging/battery-packaging/lithium-ion-battery-packaging/prototype/small-prototype/
I couldn't find anywhere that could legally sell me a flexible battery for my skateboard. There are places around here and other forums that sell flexible batteries but looking at the rules I think must be illegal. The more I hear it seems a lot of places sell packs that they make that haven't gone through the testing. commonly known businesses around here.
whats the easiest way to post a pic? I'd like to post the batteries been making and get your thoughts. the goal is a flexible battery. I had pcbs made that have over 12awg worth of copper traces for the series connections for 24 cells. 6s4p. 67x 480mm I think. it flexes nicely. Essential is the cells all sit connected to Velcro in the enclosure connected on the bottom of the skateboard and the pcb floats above and puts little stress on the nickel
PROTOTYPE BATTERY BUILDING AND SHIPPING REG (from https://www.govregs.com/regulations/49/173.185)
:
(e) Low production runs and prototypes. Low production runs (i.e., annual production runs consisting of not more than 100 lithium cells or batteries), or prototype lithium cells or batteries, including equipment transported for purposes of testing, are excepted from the testing and record keeping requirements of paragraph (a) of this section, provided:
(1) Except as provided in paragraph (e)(4) of this section, each cell or battery is individually packed in a non-metallic inner packaging, inside an outer packaging, and is surrounded by cushioning material that is non-combustible and non-conductive or contained in equipment. Equipment must be constructed or packaged in a manner as to prevent accidental operation during transport;
(2) Appropriate measures shall be taken to minimize the effects of vibration and shocks and prevent movement of the cells or batteries within the package that may lead to damage and a dangerous condition during transport. Cushioning material that is non-combustible and non-conductive may be used to meet this requirement;
(3) The lithium cells or batteries are packed in inner packagings or contained in equipment. The inner packaging or equipment is placed in one of the following outer packagings that meet the requirements of part 178, subparts L and M, of this subchapter at the Packing Group I level. Cells and batteries, including equipment of different sizes, shapes or masses must be placed into an outer packaging of a tested design type listed in this section provided the total gross mass of the package does not exceed the gross mass for which the design type has been tested. A cell or battery with a net mass of more than 30 kg is limited to one cell or battery per outer packaging;
(i) Metal (4A, 4B, 4N), wooden (4C1, 4C2, 4D, 4F), or solid plastic (4H2) box;
(ii) Metal (1A2, 1B2, 1N2), plywood (1D), or plastic (1H2) drum.
(4) Lithium batteries, including lithium batteries contained in equipment, that weigh 12 kg (26.5 pounds) or more and have a strong, impact-resistant outer casing or assemblies of such batteries, may be packed in strong outer packagings, in protective enclosures (for example, in fully enclosed or wooden slatted crates), or on pallets or other handling devices, instead of packages meeting the UN performance packaging requirements in paragraphs (b)(3)(ii) and (iii) of this section. The battery or battery assembly must be secured to prevent inadvertent movement, and the terminals may not support the weight of other superimposed elements;
(5) Irrespective of the limit specified in column (9B) of the § 172.101 Hazardous Materials Table, the battery or battery assembly prepared for transport in accordance with this paragraph may have a mass exceeding 35 kg gross weight when transported by cargo aircraft;
(6) Batteries or battery assemblies packaged in accordance with this paragraph are not permitted for transportation by passenger-carrying aircraft, and may be transported by cargo aircraft only if approved by the Associate Administrator prior to transportation; and
(7) Shipping papers must include the following notation “Transport in accordance with § 173.185(e).”
https://www.clsmith.com/hazplus-hazardous-material-packaging/battery-packaging/lithium-ion-battery-packaging/prototype/small-prototype/
I couldn't find anywhere that could legally sell me a flexible battery for my skateboard. There are places around here and other forums that sell flexible batteries but looking at the rules I think must be illegal. The more I hear it seems a lot of places sell packs that they make that haven't gone through the testing. commonly known businesses around here.
whats the easiest way to post a pic? I'd like to post the batteries been making and get your thoughts. the goal is a flexible battery. I had pcbs made that have over 12awg worth of copper traces for the series connections for 24 cells. 6s4p. 67x 480mm I think. it flexes nicely. Essential is the cells all sit connected to Velcro in the enclosure connected on the bottom of the skateboard and the pcb floats above and puts little stress on the nickel
PROTOTYPE BATTERY BUILDING AND SHIPPING REG (from https://www.govregs.com/regulations/49/173.185)
:
(e) Low production runs and prototypes. Low production runs (i.e., annual production runs consisting of not more than 100 lithium cells or batteries), or prototype lithium cells or batteries, including equipment transported for purposes of testing, are excepted from the testing and record keeping requirements of paragraph (a) of this section, provided:
(1) Except as provided in paragraph (e)(4) of this section, each cell or battery is individually packed in a non-metallic inner packaging, inside an outer packaging, and is surrounded by cushioning material that is non-combustible and non-conductive or contained in equipment. Equipment must be constructed or packaged in a manner as to prevent accidental operation during transport;
(2) Appropriate measures shall be taken to minimize the effects of vibration and shocks and prevent movement of the cells or batteries within the package that may lead to damage and a dangerous condition during transport. Cushioning material that is non-combustible and non-conductive may be used to meet this requirement;
(3) The lithium cells or batteries are packed in inner packagings or contained in equipment. The inner packaging or equipment is placed in one of the following outer packagings that meet the requirements of part 178, subparts L and M, of this subchapter at the Packing Group I level. Cells and batteries, including equipment of different sizes, shapes or masses must be placed into an outer packaging of a tested design type listed in this section provided the total gross mass of the package does not exceed the gross mass for which the design type has been tested. A cell or battery with a net mass of more than 30 kg is limited to one cell or battery per outer packaging;
(i) Metal (4A, 4B, 4N), wooden (4C1, 4C2, 4D, 4F), or solid plastic (4H2) box;
(ii) Metal (1A2, 1B2, 1N2), plywood (1D), or plastic (1H2) drum.
(4) Lithium batteries, including lithium batteries contained in equipment, that weigh 12 kg (26.5 pounds) or more and have a strong, impact-resistant outer casing or assemblies of such batteries, may be packed in strong outer packagings, in protective enclosures (for example, in fully enclosed or wooden slatted crates), or on pallets or other handling devices, instead of packages meeting the UN performance packaging requirements in paragraphs (b)(3)(ii) and (iii) of this section. The battery or battery assembly must be secured to prevent inadvertent movement, and the terminals may not support the weight of other superimposed elements;
(5) Irrespective of the limit specified in column (9B) of the § 172.101 Hazardous Materials Table, the battery or battery assembly prepared for transport in accordance with this paragraph may have a mass exceeding 35 kg gross weight when transported by cargo aircraft;
(6) Batteries or battery assemblies packaged in accordance with this paragraph are not permitted for transportation by passenger-carrying aircraft, and may be transported by cargo aircraft only if approved by the Associate Administrator prior to transportation; and
(7) Shipping papers must include the following notation “Transport in accordance with § 173.185(e).”
18650s shouldn't have tabs anyway they're designed to be stuffed in as close as possible to each other and interconnected as simply as possible. In other words you use as few individual pieces to make your interconnect as possible. Pre attached tabs just get in the way. If you need tabs to put your pack together you're doing it wrong. Fused packs are another topic but imo they're best avoided for ebike size batteries.
If you want an "easily configurable" pack without spot welding or whatever try pouch cells or RC batteries.
If you want an "easily configurable" pack without spot welding or whatever try pouch cells or RC batteries.
That product is designed for 2A per cell. I only used that pic as an example of a tabbed cell. I'm not saying tabs are a good idea or a bad idea...the question is...once tabs are attached by someone who bought a $300 spot-welder, does it change the shipping regulations?
No. The regs suck, but they are the same as loose cells.
Assembling cells into a pack that is more than 100-WH (think bigger than a laptop battery or cordless tool), then the regulations then skyrocket...
Hillhater
100 TW
Yes the regs suck..just knee jerk response to a percieved issue.spinningmagnets said:
More important than capacity or tabs, should be the type and quality of the cell insulation wrap, packaging methods etc.
PS even power tool packs are often beyond the 100W limit ...20-36volts, and 4,5,6-9 Ah are common .
Hummina Shadeeba
1 MW
It may be just a shipping restriction. I’d heard it was more but didn’t find anything.john61ct said:
I have yet to see how the language of the law will be satified with the acutal packing needed but will post when i know.
the new rules that just went into effect...cells are supposed to be shipped at a lower state of charge. seems a good idea. seems the super obvious thing to do that maybe only a huge vendor with a warehouse of cells wouldn't like.
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